OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

Can you see the issue?

If He is telling them they might lose their salvation in order to motivate them by fear (I mean a wholesome fear, not terrifying!) to perserve.

How can a God of truth use lies to accomplish His purpose of holiness in His elect?
Could He use a terryfying fear?

Now this is not a deliemma for me, as I understand the weight of severity behind God's Words, but for you, you must conclude your God is a lier.

That is a terrible situation to arrive at if you read Hebrews 6:4-9

Just for the moment, say I am right - or should I say the writer of Hebrews is right.

Verse 6 means “to commit apostasy”...if one holds wrong teaching and teaches it, you are committing apostacy. The context is "falling away"...which to me mean they have known truth, however, lets say the context is unbelievers preaching lies - an unbeliever who apostacises cannot lose salvation, as they never had it to begin with, however a believer who apostacises can lose salvation.

Can your God use such warnings without following through...that really is the crux of Hebrew 6.

For me, He can and Will.
For you, it's impossible because OSAS demands that salvation be given regardless the offence.

F2F

 

[face2face]

yes,

Jesus was not telling the disciples to endure and they would enter heaven, He was telling those alive at the time, to endure.. They will need that and more motivation to continue on. and not give up.

Heaven is not the destination of the Elect.

Matt 5:5 is very clear! As was the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

F2F

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan

Your Quote "It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first."

Your justification to fit OSAS into Hebrews 6 was an attempt, but that is all it was. You conclusion here shows how damaging OSAS is for one who as you put it is a "nominal" Christian.

Let’s talk to the context of Hebrews for a moment.

If in fact the writer is speaking to those enlightened who have a full and complete knowledge of Christ / Gospel etc and they fall way back into Judaism; is the warning of the loss of salvation truth, or lies? If this is true, then OSAS falls over as there are many Gospels but only One Can save.

There are two words which present a problem for you in Hebrews 6

6:3 And this is what we intend to do, if God permits. 6:4 For it is impossible (for whom?) in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6:6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt. Heb 6:3–6.

Firstly, there is a lot going on between "impossible" and the added emphasis "again", which you would conveniently explain away.

In relation to the Holy Spirit you said

"There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive"

So am I right in saying you wish to water down every aspect of this section of Scripture to allow your OSAS to fit the text? I mean, so far you have qualified every single passage with this v that...Genuine Christian vs Pseudo Christian, surely you only have so much water in your possession?

Out of interest, do you do this with all of Scripture? Or only those text which are problematic for your OSAS bias?

If you believe verse 4-6 is speaking to believers, which I think you do, then OSAS is clearly dismissed because the reality of those who reject the Gospel, or change it to suit their own beliefs are apostate and should clearly fear the meeting of the Lord.

You have shown me enough evidence in your treatment of Hebrews 6 to know you are fully convinced in your own mind of OSAS teachings and the extent you are willing to go suggests you will not be moved.

I respect that, but its unwise to handle the Word of God so carelessly.

F2F

Prior to my conversion several years ago (while still attending the Roman Catholic church), I was opposed to OSAS, lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable! My faith was also in works for salvation at that time and was not in Christ alone.

After my conversion I now understood scripture in a whole new light and I'm no longer opposed to OSAS. Feel free to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to insecurity if you wish but you will NEVER convince me to join you.

As I said before, I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Prior to my conversion several years ago (while still attending the Roman Catholic church), I was opposed to OSAS, lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable! My faith was also in works for salvation at that time and was not in Christ alone.

After my conversion I now understood scripture in a whole new light and I'm no longer opposed to OSAS. Feel free to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to insecurity if you wish but you will NEVER convince me to join you.

As I said before, I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

its like listening to mainstream media. Stop listening to what people say and actually do some real research you will realize you have been fed a lie. and you will be free..

 

[mailmandan]

stop feeding them.

Nothing you say will convince them of their legalism, or cause them to repent.

Those who suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome will most likely not be convinced otherwise.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Saul/Paul was convinced and repented. there is always hope.

But the harder they get, the harder it will be

 

[BlessedPeace]

Now this is funny,

Let the reader see what happened here

He claims here he is not worthy, Yet attacks the people who understand what it means to be "poor in spirit" and unworthy, and give their eternity to the one who saved them.

while he pumps his chest and claims he is worthy (he must be for his gospel of losable salvation to be truthful)

this is what it looks like when you do not practice what you preach and are deceived by your own doctrine.

I think the reason it appears as if does is because they are not at all aligned with the faith.

They're here to throw out nonsense claims as they cobble together passages they think will contradict our sound doctrine.

There are atheist groups that make a hobby out of trolling Christian forums.

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[BlessedPeace]

Those who suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome will most likely never be convinced otherwise.

Of course not.
Only God changes the natural man to understand the things of God.

What we witness in F2F , Phone,and others that sound just like them, is that very fact in scripture.

 

[ScottA]

Your inference Christian - where did I say that? Show me Post#

No, again these are your words not mine - you know this and I'm sure in your reply you will acknowledge this honestly.

Here are the quotes where you said "OSAS is trash": Search results for query: OSAS is trash

You stand corrected.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Here are the quotes where you said "OSAS is trash": Search results for query: OSAS is trash

You stand corrected.

It can be they have so many names here that they forget what each one has said.

 

[th1b.taylor]

According to this documentary, OSAS originated with the Gnostics, was constantly being refuted by the early church, and was unknown in the Church until the 5th century when Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, a former Gnostic, brought it into the church.

00:01:36 "Believers in OSAS invariably take the high ground historically as though they're defending the historic faith. This is incredibly dishonest. That's because before Augustine's novel teachings in the early 5th century, absolutely no one in the early church believed in once saved always saved. I know of no patristic scholar or church historian who disputes that fact."

00:03:22 "The early church fathers actually warned against the idea of OSAS because that doctrine was not found within any Christian churches at the time; it was found among the Gnostics. ... in their refutations of the Gnostics, they would mention how these Gnostics believed that you could never fall away from the faith..."

I do not understand what the rub is. I left my attempt to go to Nashville, the heart beat of sin, and I am forever saved. Do you want to know how I know? I cannot imagine being 79 years old and running around on my wife and my only use for beer is for slug and snail bate.

I a man or a woman profess Salvation and walk away from the LORD, never to return, I'll tell you the Ruah, Holy Spirit, was never resident there in the first place, as is the case with too many Church Membership Rolls today.

Can I tell you, with certainty, who is saved? Nope, it just ain't none of my business, that belongs to Yehova and I try not to but in.

 

[ScottA]

The precedence here, is the twelve sent in to spy out the promised land: Many succumb to plague, many die according to their own unbelief never to enter in, and only two walk out their days in accord with the promise of God. Two by two, as it was before also given in precedence. And these again are as the days of Noah.

 

[JLB]

According to John 6 I abide in him as long as he lives because I entrusted my eternity to him in faith and was given eternal life based on his promise

In John 15 it means to produce fruit. We can not produce fruit without abiding in him

You have to get context you can”t just pull a verse of of context then demand your right

We don't know since you don't post scripture.

You just post your opinion, then tag your opinion with a scripture reference.




JLB

 

[BlessedPeace]

We don't know since you don't post scripture.

You just post your opinion, then tag your opinion with a scripture reference.




JLB

We?
No.
You!
Don't know.

Another one who confuses Scripture with personal opinion.How unfortunate.

If the Scripture reference isn't adequate,you should already know the passage yourself if you read the Bible.

 

[JLB]

We?
No.
You!
Don't know.

Another one who confuses Scripture with personal opinion.How unfortunate.

If the Scripture reference isn't adequate,you should already know the passage yourself if you read the Bible.

All I posted was scripture.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how the Apostle John instructs us to abide in Him -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


These are not my words. These are the words of Jesus Christ.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3






JLB

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We don't know since you don't post scripture.

You just post your opinion, then tag your opinion with a scripture reference.




JLB

Read John 6, and read John 15

I did post scripture. I just did not post the exact verses.. But if your a christian and true bible reader. I would not have to. You would know the verses I spoke of.’’

 

[face2face]

Here are the quotes where you said "OSAS is trash": Search results for query: OSAS is trash

You stand corrected.

Yes OSAS is a false doctrine, dont resist Scott....rather than going to all that effort which I must say in impressive why not deal with all the posts and unanswered questions in this thread. Who knows you might learn something.

F2F

 

[face2face]

So, reading over those posts above it appears nothing new has been presented on the subject. Hebrews 6:4-9 still stands as being a strong section of Scripture which refutes OSAS.

Lets move on to the Masters assessment of the Seven Churches.

LAODICEA: The lukewarm Ecclesia - Self-righteous, know-nothing.

It is said to be the age in which we all live - lukewarm...Both cold and hot drinks are refreshing; but lukewarm ones are nauseating.

The idea of the Lord spewing out believers must be an affront to the OSAS crowd but lets look into this Judgement shall we.

Like the cold of snow in the time of harvest, so is a faithful messenger to those who send him, for he refreshes the heart of his masters.
Pr 25:13.

Compare

My heart became hot within me. As I mused, the fire burned; then I spoke with my tongue: Ps 39:3.

Unfortunately the Laodicean believers were lukewarm, and such an attitude is an insult to the Lord - read Malachi 1:6-10 to show how an affront this was to "faithful and true witness" who had died on their behalf.

6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a father, where is my honor? And if I am a master, where is my fear? says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. But you say, ‘How have we despised your name?’ 7 By offering polluted food upon my altar. But you say, ‘How have we polluted you?’ By saying that the Lord’s table may be despised. 8 When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not evil? Present that to your governor; will he accept you or show you favor? says the Lord of hosts. 9 And now entreat the favor of God, that he may be gracious to us. With such a gift from your hand, will he show favor to any of you? says the Lord of hosts. 10 Oh that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire on my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. Mal 1:6–10.

So what is the judgement of the Master on these believers?

16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. Re 3:16.

"Will" is mello in Greek and is not a declaration of immediate inexorable doom, but can imply a stay of proceedings on certain conditions. It is better rendered: I am about to spue thee out...if there be no change!

This section is similar in its severity to Hebrews 6 though the language is somewhat more descriptive. What was levelled at Mailman and Eternally is whether this is an empty threat? For OSAS's to hold to their position they MUST make Christ a liar as they would do in Hebrews 6 otherwise they MUST concede the threat is real and in some instances, will be actionable.

To sum it up, OSAS believers either believe what the Master is saying here, or they don't

No way of escape for them

F2F

 

[face2face]

Can I tell you, with certainty, who is saved? Nope, it just ain't none of my business, that belongs to Yehova and I try not to but in.

Once again, a correct spirit enters the discussion and will the OSAS advocates see and hear? Those who know the Lord know what He delights in and its a broken and contrite spirit - the meek shall inherit the earth.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Prior to my conversion several years ago (while still attending the Roman Catholic church), I was opposed to OSAS, lived in fear and bondage to insecurity and was miserable!

A couple of things here mailman. The pendulum often swings too far; extremes beget extremes! Which is why its essential to look at the complete record for a balance view. The Harlot system is miserable and its man-made catechisms will stand against them when the Master returns.

My faith was also in works for salvation at that time and was not in Christ alone.

If your faith is Christ seeking and your works are his - you have nothing to fear. As the Lord would say “Go now and leave your life of sin”, and for those who seek for honour, glory and immortality he is just to give it in that day. I don't know your future, neither do you though I've seen in my short life "many" who are the four soils of the parable of the sower! All four received the seed and only one soil was cultivated and tilled that it might grow. I get OSAS believers don't want to talk about the fate of those who allow the world to choke the life out of them but the judgement will be such a place as you will witness! We can trust, take confidence and live in the shadow of His Grace; but we can never assume we are saved! Only those like Paul who had run the race (past tense) who had fought the good fight can absolutely know with no doubt whatsoever that a crown of righteousness is laid up for him...will every believer receive such a crown?

After my conversion I now understood scripture in a whole new light and I'm no longer opposed to OSAS. Feel free to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to insecurity if you wish but you will NEVER convince me to join you.

See those bold words of yours...that was your experience, not mine! You don't know my confidence and to assume you do would be arrogance. I'm not asking you to join me...just to apply your mind to understanding the Word and see for yourself the OSAS dogma is false / flawed.

As I said before, I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

I could see you have had a negative experience in your past which is fine...we all grow in our knowledge of Christ more and more as we see his day approaching.

I've enjoyed our chats, spirited at times, iron sharpens iron (sparks!) so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend!

F2F