Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

[Christian Soldier]

How do you know you have the true Jesus? What if the church lied to you about Jesus?

Did Jesus die to save you from God?

]

I know I have the true Jesus because He saved me. The Church doesn't lie, are you saying that the Elect Saints of God are liars. If you believe that then you don't believe in the head of the Church (God) either.

Jesus didn't die to save me from God. Jesus died to save me from myself, because I was the enemy of God. I hated God and didn't want anything to do with Him, I loved my sin and I was enslaved by Satan. I was heading to hell when Jesus saved me from hell. He paid for all of my past sins, my present sins and all my future sins.

So Jesus didn't save me from God, He saved me to be joined to God, As usual you always have everything backwards.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Glad to see that you have revised your definition. Real progress.

]

It's not a revision, I've always maintained the same definition.

 

[BarneyFife]

I know I have the true Jesus because He saved me. The Church doesn't lie, are you saying that the Elect Saints of God are liars. If you believe that then you don't believe in the head of the Church (God) either.

Jesus didn't die to save me from God. Jesus died to save me from myself, because I was the enemy of God. I hated God and didn't want anything to do with Him, I loved my sin and I was enslaved by Satan. I was heading to hell when Jesus saved me from hell. He paid for all of my past sins, my present sins and all my future sins.

So Jesus didn't save me from God, He saved me to be joined to God, As usual you always have everything backwards.

As usual?

.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Another fine mess of double-talk.

So... wicked people aren't people? Double-talk.


Not knowing God is a crime punishable by eternal torment? Why?


I'm making God a cruel monster? You're that one that says he burns people forever for not knowing him. Maybe he should introduce himself instead of incinerating them.


Isn't he giving sinners the punishment YOU deserve?

]

Why are you being willfully ignorant of the fact that you falsely accused God of evil. You refuse to acknowledge the fact that God doesn't burn the righteous people. You didn't qualify your earlier statement by stating what kind of people Gods burns forever.

So you don't believe what Jesus said about judgement day, when many Christians will come to Him saying "Lord Lord, haven't we done this and that in your name and He will say to them depart from Me your workers of iniquity into the everlasting fire, for I never knew you".

That's in the book of revelation, you can see professing Christians are being cast into the lake of fire because they did not know Christ. You need to put your thinking cap on and understand that everybody knows Christ in one of two ways. You either know Him as your savior or you know Him as your judge;. If He is your judge you will be cast into the lake of fire for all have sinned.

I applaud you for last comment, because it's absolutely true. God does give sinners the punishment I deserve. But I thank God for sovereignly electing me to salvation before He created the world.

Your question should have been, "why did God chose to save anyone at all" we all deserve hell but He chose to save some for His own glory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That much is obvious.

Just the fact that you are defending the accuracy of the KJV proves that you do not have a grip on the biblical languages, nor are interested in the truth or even care because it is just not that hard to see the errors.

And this is coming from someone that likes the KJV, but it is not a God and there are a lot translations and a lot of different types of translations. But as far as a accurate literal translation the KJV is not. As far as easy to read and understand the KJV is not the one to pick.

Now if you are looking for a historical representation of Christian beliefs in the 17th century, you can find some of that in the KJV.

If you are looking for scripture put to poetry the KJV is great.

But for understanding and accuracy it fails on both counts. And the fact that it is the Bible of choice for all cults because a lot of people can’t understand it and the cult leaders can twist the meaning.

So if you are claiming to know more than Georgios Babiniotis, this would mean that your expertise in Greek is better than the legendary Greek grammarian who lives in Greece, whose native tongue is Greek, and who has written multiple dictionaries on Greek and who has written about the Etymology of Greek, as well.

Georgios Babiniotis, a prominent Greek linguist and philologist, is well-versed in Koine Greek. Babiniotis has an extensive background in the study of the Greek language across different historical periods, including Ancient, Koine, and Modern Greek. His work often involves the analysis and teaching of Greek in its various forms, so it is safe to say that he has a strong understanding of Koine Greek.

So have you written multiple dictionaries in Greek?

 

[St. SteVen]

Honestly, though, I don't care what kind of label you slap on it.

Either it comes from God or from man.

Jesus got his teaching straight from God. He challenged his listeners to prove it was from God by acting on it.

I believe he is giving us the test for any teaching. Test it to see if it is from God. A personal decision.

Simply reading the Bible is not a teaching. Some understood what they read, but many don't understand what they read. Most are left with questions. They will ask others, study to discover the truth, or ask a leader to explain. And in the end, a personal decision.

Teaching, like doctrine, is man-made. It must be tested, as Jesus taught us to test even his own teaching to see if it is from God.

But what is claimed on this forum? That the Bible itself is doctrine.

How many doctrines have biblical support yet contradict other doctrines that have biblical support?
- Is one of these doctrines right and the other wrong?
- How do you choose which one? Bible versus Bible?
- Can we learn to respect different readings of scripture? Jesus did. Scripture below.

Perhaps the questions are more important than the answers.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

So Jesus didn't save me from God...

What if he hadn't saved you, then what?

Didn't Jesus save you from the wrath of God? (therefore saving you from God)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

It's not a revision, I've always maintained the same definition.

Originally you said that the Bible itself is doctrine. Now you say.

Christian Soldier said:
Doctrine is the application of scripture...

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Why are you being willfully ignorant of the fact that you falsely accused God of evil.

I'm not the one who believes in a forever burning hell, you are.

Do you also believe in the broad and narrow way? (few find it)

[

 

[Grailhunter]

So if you are claiming to know more than Georgios Babiniotis, this would mean that your expertise in Greek is better than the legendary Greek grammarian who lives in Greece, whose native tongue is Greek, and who has written multiple dictionaries on Greek and who has written about the Etymology of Greek, as well.

Georgios Babiniotis, a prominent Greek linguist and philologist, is well-versed in Koine Greek. Babiniotis has an extensive background in the study of the Greek language across different historical periods, including Ancient, Koine, and Modern Greek. His work often involves the analysis and teaching of Greek in its various forms, so it is safe to say that he has a strong understanding of Koine Greek.

So have you written multiple dictionaries in Greek?

I don’t know of Georgios Babiniotis and I do not think I have heard of him mentioned in college and I have been educated in five countries.

There are a lot of people that know more than I do about the biblical languages. But you can read and write biblical languages and still get the meaning wrong. What do the scriptures mean? ….and what is the history of it all. The history of the formation of Bible. You have biblical scholars that indorse the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Calvinists and some so silly to endorse the KJV….obviously.

Either way I do not know enough about Georgios Babiniotis to know what or why he believes about Christianity. And by the way does anyone know if he has a favored denomination? I did look him up and he is classified as a Greek Linguist and a philologist, so he is big on languages but nothing I saw called him a theologian or biblical scholar…..did I miss something?

So many fields of study to be theologian.
Sorry it took me so long to respond I was watching the Cardinals vs Cubs game.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That much is obvious.

Just the fact that you are defending the accuracy of the KJV proves that you do not have a grip on the biblical languages, nor are interested in the truth or even care because it is just not that hard to see the errors.

There are KJV advocates who know the original languages like Koine Greek. They even know Modern Greek.

Zane C. Hodges: While primarily known for his work in New Testament Greek, Hodges has been a vocal advocate for the Received Text tradition, which underlies the KJV. His expertise in Greek extends to a broader understanding of the language's evolution, including Modern Greek. Edward F. Hills: Hills had a strong background in biblical languages and defended the KJV based on the Textus Receptus. His understanding of Greek, including its modern form, informed his advocacy.

Georgios Babiniotis has not expressed he is a KJV advocate. Georgios Babiniotis is one of the top Greek linguists in the world. But he does defend the inclusion of Comma in 1 John 5:7 based on two grammatical points when Nick Sayers contacted him. Georgios Babiniotis is one of the top Greek experts in the world and he is on our side, and yet he has not claimed to be KJV-only or anything. This is why I cannot take you seriously. You are not even close to the caliber of Georgios Babiniotis. You do not even know of the grammar arguments involved.

And this is coming from someone that likes the KJV, but it is not a God and there are a lot translations and a lot of different types of translations. But as far as a accurate literal translation the KJV is not. As far as easy to read and understand the KJV is not the one to pick.

There are a lot of people out there who have a love and hate relationship with the KJV. You would not be the only one who acts double tongued with the KJV. Many scholars over the years have employed the praise and blast syndrome with the KJV. They will speak lovingly of the KJV, and then turn around at another point in time and viciously attack it. I know. I have the quotes.

Now if you are looking for a historical representation of Christian beliefs in the 17th century, you can find some of that in the KJV.

If you are looking for scripture put to poetry the KJV is great.

But for understanding and accuracy it fails on both counts. And the fact that it is the Bible of choice for all cults because a lot of people can’t understand it and the cult leaders can twist the meaning.

We just have your word for that. You have not offered any real proof. You don’t have the originals before you to even compare it with the KJV and so how would you really know? Most scholars today have a Vaticanus and Sinaiticus primacy (although they follow a shape shifter text that is constantly being updated and changed every few years). That to me is more insane if you even know Bible history. It appears you are simply ignorant of such a thing (No offense of course). Then again, seeing you are liberal, you obviously are not able to see the forest from the trees on this topic. You have stated you fellowship with Catholics, and other groups, etcetera (See here). You also believe in Evolution. So yeah, we just do not take liberals seriously anymore than we take Democrats seriously when they talk. Yes, you are not a Democrat. But you are liberal when it comes to the Bible, and that is a very serious problem. You are still in a position of unbelief and you are unable to see with spiritual eyes because you reject the Bible, and act in being your own authority over it. You may pick and choose what parts of the Bible that may fit your life, but you do not accept all of what it says. Those who accept and submit to what the Bible says fully will have a transformed and changed life spiritually. I say this not to wound you but to guide you to the path of the truth (if you are truly interested someday in such a thing).

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus got his teaching straight from God. He challenged his listeners to prove it was from God by acting on it.

I believe he is giving us the test for any teaching. Test it to see if it is from God. A personal decision.

Simply reading the Bible is not a teaching. Some understood what they read, but many don't understand what they read. Most are left with questions. They will ask others, study to discover the truth, or ask a leader to explain. And in the end, a personal decision.

Teaching, like doctrine, is man-made. It must be tested, as Jesus taught us to test even his own teaching to see if it is from God.

But what is claimed on this forum? That the Bible itself is doctrine.

How many doctrines have biblical support yet contradict other doctrines that have biblical support?
- Is one of these doctrines right and the other wrong?
- How do you choose which one? Bible versus Bible?
- Can we learn to respect different readings of scripture? Jesus did. Scripture below.

Perhaps the questions are more important than the answers.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

[

You know I love you, Steve, but for me, this complicates more than it clarifies.

 

[BarneyFife]

Georgios Babiniotis is one of the top Greek experts in the world and he is on our side, and yet he has not claimed to be KJV-only or anything. This is why I cannot take you seriously.

And this is why I cannot take you seriously.

.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don’t know of Georgios Babiniotis and I do not think I have heard of him mentioned in college and I have been educated in five countries.

Look buddy. There is this thing called the internet and even AI searches (like Perplexity.ai and ChatGPT). What you did not know now, you can simply know in a few seconds. You owe it to yourself to know this person because he has written multiple dictionaries in Modern Greek and he is a top Greek grammarian who lives in Greece and his native tongue is Greek (Note: I am not claiming AI is always correct. It’s like Google, it presents information that has to be critically analyzed like all data).

Side Note:

I am not impressed by your education in five countries. If you fail to continue to learn and gather new information to think critically and rationally, then those educational institutions have failed to truly teach you. Again, I am not trying to wound you here. You are simply not gathering new information when it is presented to you. You are not thinking rationally. Most Christians prefer to trust the Bible on the creation account (Which implies strongly a young Earth and no Evolution). Any outside ideas of an old Earth, and Evolution is something a person has to cram into the Bible. But hey, if you are liberal when it comes to the Bible, it doesn’t really matter what the Bible actually says. One becomes their own authority.

There are a lot of people that know more than I do about the biblical languages.

Are they on the level like a Georgios Babiniotis? Most likely not. Again, I would encourage you to research him online or YouTube. Do your own investigation. Please do not take the blue pill and continue to live in ignorance.

But you can read and write biblical languages and still get the meaning wrong. What do the scriptures mean? ….and what is the history of it all. The history of the formation of Bible. You have biblical scholars that indorse the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Calvinists and some so silly to endorse the KJV….obviously.

Jehovah’s Witnesses follow the New World Translation. This ties in with spiritist, Johannes Greber.

Johannes Greber used to be a Catholic priest. He began healing sessions. He talked to various spirits that said there is no hell or no blood atonement. The spirits also told him to never ever trust the Received Text (i.e., the Textus Receptus). After he got kicked out of the priesthood in Germany, he came to the United States, and he did a New Testament translation of the Bible into English. It is still the BIble used by the spiritualist church to this day. Greber talks about how the spirits guided him in every word of his translation. In 1 John 4:2, it says trust the spirits. Not even Modern Bibles have this rendering. The Jehovah’s Witnesses had Greber’s Translation in front of them when they did their New Testament translation. John 1:1 rendering in the NWT came from Greber’s translation. His NT Greek is based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

As for Calvinists: While there are some KJV-only Calvinists, there are also a lot of Calvinists who are for the Modern Bibles, and they defend the Critical Text (like James White). However, holding to the Critical Text and or Modern Scholarship flies in the face of Bible history and common sense. These are not liberals by any means, either.

Aso please understand I am not friend of Calvinism by any means, too. But they are not a liberal group (Despite their wrong belief in Calvinism). They are in error but in a different way.

Either way I do not know enough about Georgios Babiniotis to know what or why he believes about Christianity. And by the way does anyone know if he has a favored denomination? I did look him up and he is classified as a Greek Linguist and a philologist, so he is big on languages but nothing I saw called him a theologian or biblical scholar…..did I miss something?

So many fields of study to be theologian.
Sorry it took me so long to respond I was watching the Cardinals vs Cubs game.

Georgios Babiniotis has not declared to have any affiliation of religious denomination (Although he is the Former Minister of Education, Lifelong Learning and Religious Affairs of Greece).

The point here is that Georgios Babiniotis is an expert in the language of Greek (including Modern Greek and Koine Greek). I would take his expertise on the issue over yours and or any scholar any given day of the week. Nick Sayers (KJV / TR advocate) contacted Georgios Babiniotis about the validity of the claims of Greek Orthodox professor Eugenius Voulgaris (who lived from 1716-1806) who defended the Johannine Comma on grammatical grounds.

Google Search

www.google.com

Johannine Comma

A blog examining the Johannine Comma, 1 John 5:7-8.

johanninecomma.blogspot.com

Eugenios Voulgaris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And this is why I cannot take you seriously.

.

When I say he is on our side, I am not saying he is a KJV-only advocate. I am saying Georgios Babiniotis is on our side when it comes to the inclusion of the Comma in 1 John 5:7. Georgios Babiniotis defends the inclusion of the Comma on grammatical grounds in two ways. This is in agreement with Greek Orthodox professor Eugenius Voulgaris (who lived from 1716-1806) who defended the Johannine Comma grammatically. Nick Sayers contacted Georgios Babiniotis in regard to whether or not Eugenius Voulgaris was correct on his grammatical defense of the Comma (back in the past). Georgios Babiniotis agreed with Eugenius Voulgaris’s conclusions.

See the end of post #214 for the links.

 

[Grailhunter]

seriously. You are not even close to the caliber of Georgios Babiniotis. You do not even know of the grammar arguments involved.

The Comma is a matter of history, I do not debate history.
It is like debating if the sun is hot.

 

[Grailhunter]

The point here is that Georgios Babiniotis is an expert in the language of Greek (including Modern Greek and Koine Greek). I would take his expertise on the issue over yours and or any scholar any given day of the week. Nick Sayers (KJV / TR advocate) contacted Georgios Babiniotis about the validity of the claims of Greek Orthodox professor Eugenius Voulgaris (who lived from 1716-1806) who defended the Johannine Comma on grammatical grounds.

Are you suggesting that experts in Greek language do not disagree.

 

[Christian Soldier]

What if he hadn't saved you, then what?

Didn't Jesus save you from the wrath of God? (therefore saving you from God)

[

"what if he hadn't saved me". I can't even imagine such a ting because I have been saved since before the world was made. I did live like a child of the Devil, until I was converted at the age of 26

Jesus didn't save me from the wrath of God, because there never was any chance of me facing His wrath. Jesus saved me before He created the world, so Gods wrath was removed off me back then.

Jesus saved me from paying the penalty for my sin, so he took my sin onto Himself and paid for it in full so I never have to face the angry Judge. So I can't say Jesus saved me from Gods wrath as if God is just an angry old man who takes pleasure in watching people burn forever.

God only gives people what they deserve, so He's a righteous judge. I deserve what Jesus deserves, because He imputed His righteousness onto me. So God will judge me according to His righteousness and not my own.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Comma is a matter of history, I do not debate history.
It is like debating if the sun is hot.

History is written by the victors. Everyone has their own history and sifting through the history and properly analyzing it takes critical thinking and being rational about the data. Seeing you are liberal with the Bible, I am not surprised you are not willing to debate things of the past. It would be yet another testimony that you would have to ignore.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Originally you said that the Bible itself is doctrine. Now you say.

Christian Soldier said:
Doctrine is the application of scripture...

]

The Bible and Scripture is the same thing, they are there to apply not to place on the shelf as an ornament. What do you do with the bible if you don't apply it your life, that's the whole purpose of God giving us His Word. He gave it so we can live by every word that proceeds from His mouth, not to read it like some paperback novel.