Did you know that most people misunderstand both sections and confuse who is taken and who is left?
https://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/leftbehind.pdf
One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...
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https://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/leftbehind.pdf
Yes, that is why I posted the OP.
It clarifies the saints are taken and sinners left behind, as Paul(1 Thes 4) quotes Jesus(Matt 24).
Keraz
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This belief is wrong.
Many other prophesies tell us how the Lord will destroy His enemies and the faithful, righteous peoples will be protected and resettled into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
Matthew 24:37-44 starts with reminding us the end times will be 'As it was in the days of Noah.....
What happened in the 'Days of Noah'? All the wicked were drowned and the few righteous were kept safe.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't.
The end of Luke 17 shows clearly that WE DO NOT WANT TO BE THE FIRST ONE TAKEN!
Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
A clarification of His answer of, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together" is given in Matthew 24:28; and it seals His meaning about the first one taken will be like a dead "carcase" where the fowls are gathered together (i.e., to feast).
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
So those preachers who preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, and to want to be the first one 'taken', are pushing a grand LIE that leads to deception to the Antichrist.
The coming Antichrist will appear on earth before Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church (2 Thessalonians 2).
The coming Antichrist is to be in the role of 'a spurious Messiah' (Matthew 24:23-26).
Wrong.
Paul quoted Jesus in sequence per the OP.
Now, Paul speaks of the catching away first,...
...we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
Jesus says the same...
...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Paul then speaks immediately about this....
...2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Then Jesus immediately speaks this...
..43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Then Paul speaks immediately about this...
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Then Jesus immediately speaks of this...
....49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken
Coincidence?
No, Paul quoted Matt 24 per 1 Thes 4.
Your eagle thingy doctrine was just fixed.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
How about the animals I eat will they be there also?
Davy
Well-Known Member
You are wrong, blatantly wrong. Paul taught the very event of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints per His Olivet discourse.
In Matthew 24:29-31, and in Mark 13:24-27, Jesus emphatically showed His coming is immediately AFTER... the tribulation He forewarned of.
And He showed that is when He will come in the clouds and gather His saints, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
In the Matthew 24:31 example of saints, it is about the 'asleep' saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. Those are gathered "... from one end of heaven to the other". Those are the asleep saints that have already died. Jesus will resurrect them, and bring them with Him from the heavenly.
In the Mark 13:27 example of saints being gathered, it is about the saints still alive on earth on that day being gathered by Christ. That verse says those are gathered, "... from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
That is a direct parallel to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the coming of Jesus and gathering of His Church. The asleep saints are gathered by Jesus first, resurrected and He brings them with Him at His descent to this earth, and then those of us still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him and them, and we all then go to Jerusalem on earth, where Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 says He will return to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.
Furthermore, Apostle Paul was emphatic in 2 Thessalonians 2 that two main events MUST occur first, before Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. There must be a great falling away, and the coming "man of sin", the Antichrist, must be revealed sitting in the temple of God in Jerusalem, exalting himself as God and over all that worshiped.
WaterSong
Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
What does that mean, will they be spirit animals, or will they have glorified bodies?
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and mind and might.
Well, there are 3 places.
1. in the Kingdom of God.
2. remain in the clouds
3. inherit the earth
And no matter where we find ourselves there will be Peace.
Personally I believe all 3 are in the believer. And wherever he is, there we are also.
Not too hot, not too cold... just right.
Feet on the ground, Head in the clouds, and forever before the Throne.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free:
but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
I'll be happy with whatever "place" he puts me :)
Like I am right now.. :)
Hugs
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and mind and might.
Well, there are 3 places.
1. in the Kingdom of God.
2. remain in the clouds
3. inherit the earth
And no matter where we find ourselves there will be Peace.
Personally I believe all 3 are in the believer. And wherever he is, there we are also.
Not too hot, not too cold... just right.
Feet on the ground, Head in the clouds, and forever before the Throne.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free:
but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
I'll be happy with whatever "place" he puts me :)
Like I am right now.. :)
Hugs
The taking of the saints is not the 2nd coming.
You did not know that?
The taking happens BEFORE his return...this is how you see them return with Christ per Rev 19 and Zech 14.
Greetings my fellow bretheren and sistheren
To myself, Heaven, or at least the 3rd heaven is where God resides now, along with the martyrs. Matthew 6:10 has been resonating with me for sometime now. His will WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven...as, He Himself will reside with us when the He creates the new earth and new heaven. It seems almost like a mirror of what should be...like the world sees things in a mirror, it is backwards from what heaven is like, so...once He brings us a new earth and resides with us this is where I see "on earth as it is in heaven" So then, I am led to believe that many will reign with Him on the new earth. For a season or not, I do not know, yet..."On earth as it is..."
We see through the glass darkly (imagine looking wide eyed directly at the sun, can't do it huh? And, we are seeing even the sun as through a glass, darkly!) Besides, we cannot even imagine what He has in store for those who love Him.
"Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.."
Matthew 6:10
Revelation 21:1-27
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” ..."
Probably off track on some things here but, tis what He has to date shown me :)
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
You know I said something similar to that but I used the wrong words. I said as above so below, not realizing the world had taken it and turned it into something wrong.. lolGreetings my fellow bretheren and sistheren
To myself, Heaven, or at least the 3rd heaven is where God resides now, along with the martyrs. Matthew 6:10 has been resonating with me for sometime now. His will WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven...as, He Himself will reside with us when the He creates the new earth and new heaven. It seems almost like a mirror of what should be...like the world sees things in a mirror, it is backwards from what heaven is like, so...once He brings us a new earth and resides with us this is where I see "on earth as it is in heaven" So then, I am led to believe that many will reign with Him on the new earth. For a season or not, I do not know, yet..."On earth as it is..."
We see through the glass darkly (imagine looking wide eyed directly at the sun, can't do it huh? And, we are seeing even the sun as through a glass, darkly!) Besides, we cannot even imagine what He has in store for those who love Him.
"Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.."
Matthew 6:10
Revelation 21:1-27
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” ..."
Probably off track on some things here but, tis what He has to date shown me :)
Learn something new every day!
Good post Amen
Thank You
Hugs
It is awesome to ponder. And, there are so many different views on this!
thanks for the reply :)
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:3,5 KJV
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Has this not already came to pass?
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Revelation 21:3,5 KJV
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Has this not already came to pass?
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I believe the book of Revelation was given to John the Baptist when he first began his wandering in the wilderness.
Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Jhn 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God
Who is the "he" that sent John to Baptize? I been looking and I can't find him except in the book of Revelation.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And this is where I get turned round with Paul.
John came to Baptize with Water... ok..
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Now I know a lot of people said they was of John..
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Who is Apollos?
Apollos = " given by Apollo"
I knew a man in Christ...
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Next question... John was sent to prison because he rebuked Herod for messing with his brother's wife Herodias.
Where was John in prison and....... was Saul/Paul around at the time? In what function?
Mat 14:3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife.
Mat 14:4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.
Mat 14:5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.
Isaiah chapter 32.. subscribe the evidence.. sealed in an earthen vessel... I NEED TO DIG...
Anywhoo.. I put that there to remember.. i need to dig.
So who is Apollos? Did Saul/Paul know John. Did John give Paul the Revelation?
Was John the Baptist in prison on the island of Patmos?
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Patmos = "my killing" ... oh my..
It has been held by the church, ever since the time of (Justin Martyr (dialog contra Trypho, § 81, p. 308 a. cf. Eusebius, h. e. 4, 18, 8; see Charteris, Canonicity, chapter 34:and note)and) Irenaeus adv. haer. 5, 30, that this John is the Apostle;
Well sure, because they say so.. I guess..
I disagree.
The other thing that comes to mind is the double portion of Elijah to Elisha..
And many say that Apollos and Paul are the same guy.
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 16:12 As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren: but his will was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time.
Tit 3:13 Bring Zenas G2211 the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.
Zenas = "Jupiter"
Act 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Act 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
Mercurius or Hermes = "herald of the gods"
Act 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, G2060 because he was the chief speaker.
Rom 16:14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, G2060 and the brethren which are with them.
anywhoo..
Quote "Has this not already came to pass? "
I believe the book of the Revelation OF Jesus is just that... the book OF Jesus.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Isaiah chapter 32.. dig..dig
Who is Apollos? hmm
Thank You
Hugs
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Truther says:
Did you know that the rapture verse Paul was speaking of in 1 Thes 4 was actually a quote of Jesus' words in Matt 24 (one taken the other left)?[/Quote\]
Some religious interpreters of the Bible have concluded from Jesus’ words regarding those taken and those that when he returns he will suddenly catch up out of the earth in a “rapture” some whom he has approved while others will be left behind and destroyed at Armageddon. This is private interpretation and a wresting of the Scriptures. According to the miniature fulfillment of Jesus’ words to his disciples during the fulfillment of these scripture of Jesus disciples time, they were separated from the rest of Israel only in their favorable standing and relation with Jehovah. On the other hand, the religious leaders and those who would follow them were left desolated of God’s favor and allowed to remain for almost forty years to hear the resurrection of Christ preached throughout the nation. So Israel’s time of decision continued until A.D. 70, while those who had been “taken” continued present with those who had been “left.” This miniature foreshadow finds a parallel in the time of Christ’s second presence.
So during Jesus time the worship of God by those unfaithful religious leaders and the temple were the ones left to be destroyed along with those who remained in that form of worship, which happened in 70C.E. The ones who were taken during that time were the Apostles and disciples they represent the form of true worship some remained in Israel preaching the Messianic kingdom and others were going to the nation's preaching about the Messianic kingdom. The point is the ones who were taken were still on Earth as well as the ones who were left to be destroyed in that now false religious organization and it's temple.
Did you know that the rapture verse Paul was speaking of in 1 Thes 4 was actually a quote of Jesus' words in Matt 24 (one taken the other left)?[/Quote\]
Some religious interpreters of the Bible have concluded from Jesus’ words regarding those taken and those that when he returns he will suddenly catch up out of the earth in a “rapture” some whom he has approved while others will be left behind and destroyed at Armageddon. This is private interpretation and a wresting of the Scriptures. According to the miniature fulfillment of Jesus’ words to his disciples during the fulfillment of these scripture of Jesus disciples time, they were separated from the rest of Israel only in their favorable standing and relation with Jehovah. On the other hand, the religious leaders and those who would follow them were left desolated of God’s favor and allowed to remain for almost forty years to hear the resurrection of Christ preached throughout the nation. So Israel’s time of decision continued until A.D. 70, while those who had been “taken” continued present with those who had been “left.” This miniature foreshadow finds a parallel in the time of Christ’s second presence.
So during Jesus time the worship of God by those unfaithful religious leaders and the temple were the ones left to be destroyed along with those who remained in that form of worship, which happened in 70C.E. The ones who were taken during that time were the Apostles and disciples they represent the form of true worship some remained in Israel preaching the Messianic kingdom and others were going to the nation's preaching about the Messianic kingdom. The point is the ones who were taken were still on Earth as well as the ones who were left to be destroyed in that now false religious organization and it's temple.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, with just quoting Scripture fragments and jumping around in God's Word without first doing disciplined line upon line, chapter by chapter Bible study will pretty much cause one to be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ. Our times for the end of this world is not like any other. Christ's and His Apostle's warnings about Satan appearing here on earth and playing God has never happened before during this present world.
So even as little as a generation and a half ago of believers on Christ; they were not subjected to the kind of test of our Faith that is soon coming in our time. Falling away to worship Satan disguised as our Lord Jesus in Jerusalem in our near future is a one time event, ordained for the very end of this world. It is why the coming tribulation will be a time that has never been the likes before on this earth.
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