One more point about the meaning of APOSTASIA

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KUWN

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There is nothing new in this brief post. I am just looking for how non Pre-Tribbers arrive at the meaning of APOSTASIA.

A point of linguistics can help us better understand the noun APOSTASIA. The noun takes its meaning/usage from the verb. In this case, the cognate verb is AFISTHMI (AFISTAMAI).

The verb is used 15 times in the NT, and 12 of these 15 times it is used of a departure. The other 3 are rebellion, revolt.

So, since 80% of the verbs mean a departure (not in the religious sense), how does this inform us of our understanding of APOSTASIA? Do we take into consideration the meaning/usage of the verb when defining APOSTASIA? Do we ignore the verb altogether? Just what are we to do with this noun in light of the usage of AFISTHMI?

I genuinely want to know this, so don't get mad or sarcastic.
 

IndianaRob

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There is nothing new in this brief post. I am just looking for how non Pre-Tribbers arrive at the meaning of APOSTASIA.

A point of linguistics can help us better understand the noun APOSTASIA. The noun takes its meaning/usage from the verb. In this case, the cognate verb is AFISTHMI (AFISTAMAI).

The verb is used 15 times in the NT, and 12 of these 15 times it is used of a departure. The other 3 are rebellion, revolt.

So, since 80% of the verbs mean a departure (not in the religious sense), how does this inform us of our understanding of APOSTASIA? Do we take into consideration the meaning/usage of the verb when defining APOSTASIA? Do we ignore the verb altogether? Just what are we to do with this noun in light of the usage of AFISTHMI?

I genuinely want to know this, so don't get mad or sarcastic.
There is no way to know what apostasia means just from the word apostasia, you have to consider the context of the passage.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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There is nothing new in this brief post. I am just looking for how non Pre-Tribbers arrive at the meaning of APOSTASIA.

A point of linguistics can help us better understand the noun APOSTASIA. The noun takes its meaning/usage from the verb. In this case, the cognate verb is AFISTHMI (AFISTAMAI).

The verb is used 15 times in the NT, and 12 of these 15 times it is used of a departure. The other 3 are rebellion, revolt.

So, since 80% of the verbs mean a departure (not in the religious sense), how does this inform us of our understanding of APOSTASIA? Do we take into consideration the meaning/usage of the verb when defining APOSTASIA? Do we ignore the verb altogether? Just what are we to do with this noun in light of the usage of AFISTHMI?

I genuinely want to know this, so don't get mad or sarcastic.
For me, it's simply because Paul said that the apostasia had to occur first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him (the rapture), which he called "the day of the Lord" (or the day of Christ). So, he obviously wouldn't have said the rapture would occur first before the rapture.

Beyond that, the context of 2 Thess 2:1-12 is in relation to what you would expect to occur during such a time as what Paul described. He talked about wickedness being restrained at that time, but then a later time when it would be unrestrained. And he talked about the man of sin or "that wicked...whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thess 2:8-10). The kind of deception and wickedness that he indicated was coming during a future time would be the kind of conditions that you would expect could lead to a mass falling away or departure from the faith. It's very similar to what Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:10-13.
 

Davidpt

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There is nothing new in this brief post. I am just looking for how non Pre-Tribbers arrive at the meaning of APOSTASIA.

A point of linguistics can help us better understand the noun APOSTASIA. The noun takes its meaning/usage from the verb. In this case, the cognate verb is AFISTHMI (AFISTAMAI).

The verb is used 15 times in the NT, and 12 of these 15 times it is used of a departure. The other 3 are rebellion, revolt.

So, since 80% of the verbs mean a departure (not in the religious sense), how does this inform us of our understanding of APOSTASIA? Do we take into consideration the meaning/usage of the verb when defining APOSTASIA? Do we ignore the verb altogether? Just what are we to do with this noun in light of the usage of AFISTHMI?

I genuinely want to know this, so don't get mad or sarcastic.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The first thing to get sorted out, what is meant by 'that day' in verse 3? Obviously, what is recorded in verse 2---the day of Christ.

What then is meant by the day of Christ? Obviously, what is recorded in verse 1---the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Thus far we can understand verse 3 to mean the following---Let no man deceive you by any means: for the day of Christ, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him shall not come

But let's condense that since it is obvious that the rapture is meant here by all of that.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a falling away first

If we then have 1) and 2) as options for what 'a falling away' is meaning, which option should we choose, 1) or 2)?

1) a departure from the faith

2) a rapture

If the idea is to make sense of the text, which makes better sense of the text pertaining to 'a falling away'?

This?

A) Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a departure from the faith first

or this?

B) Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first

If you think B) makes better sense of the text, I don't know what to tell you then. I give up, you win, have it your way then, if you see nonsense making sense. I can't help you, no one can.

What Pretribbers are not grasping here, 'that day' and 'a falling away first' can't be the same event. How can it be if the falling away has to happen first before 'that day' can even come?
 

KUWN

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2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The first thing to get sorted out, what is meant by 'that day' in verse 3? Obviously, what is recorded in verse 2---the day of Christ.

What then is meant by the day of Christ? Obviously, what is recorded in verse 1---the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

Thus far we can understand verse 3 to mean the following---Let no man deceive you by any means: for the day of Christ, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him shall not come

But let's condense that since it is obvious that the rapture is meant here by all of that.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a falling away first

If we then have 1) and 2) as options for what 'a falling away' is meaning, which option should we choose, 1) or 2)?

1) a departure from the faith

2) a rapture

If the idea is to make sense of the text, which makes better sense of the text pertaining to 'a falling away'?

This?

A) Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a departure from the faith first

or this?

B) Let no man deceive you by any means: for the rapture shall not come, except there come a rapture first

If you think B) makes better sense of the text, I don't know what to tell you then. I give up, you win, have it your way then, if you see nonsense making sense. I can't help you, no one can.

What Pretribbers are not grasping here, 'that day' and 'a falling away first' can't be the same event. How can it be if the falling away has to happen first before 'that day' can even come?

I think I better just give you a translation of 2 Thes 2:1-3, maybe then you can follow what I have been saying all along:


Now concerning the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together with him (the Rapture), we ask you all not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter that is allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord (the Tribulation) is already here, let no one deceive you in any way for that day of the Lord will not arrive until the Rapture/departure comes first, and then the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction...

... For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work, however, the One (Holy Spirit) who holds him back (only deity can overcome Satan) will do so until he is taken out of the way (Rapture, as stated in vs 3)...

As you can see I am a CT believer, not the MT. So, the sequence of events is:

1. The Rapture/Departure
2. The man of lawlessness is revealed (the signing of the 7-year covenant)
3. The Tribulation/Day of the Lord will then come

Just as a reminder, the word THE APOSTASIA is not found without a modifying phrase when it means rebellion. This may be the only use of APOSTASIA without a modifier to the context.
 

Jack

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Most 'Christians' make a TERRIBLE mistake by going to 'church' instead of staying home and STUDYING the Bible. Satan has filled churches with his ministers!

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

Most 'Christians' don't even know that's in the Bible! They trust their minister because they are too LAZY to STUDY the Bible! Many will burn in Hell for their laziness.
 

Davidpt

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I think I better just give you a translation of 2 Thes 2:1-3, maybe then you can follow what I have been saying all along:


Now concerning the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together with him (the Rapture), we ask you all not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter that is allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord (the Tribulation) is already here, let no one deceive you in any way for that day of the Lord will not arrive until the Rapture/departure comes first, and then the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction...

Actually, I'm already aware that some interpret it like that. The problem is, great tribulation has zero to do with the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows great tribulation, not occurs during it. Therefore, you are adding to verse 2 something not found in it. Verse 2, the day of Christ refers to verse 1 and also verse 8. IOW, believe it or not, God can multi-task, so to speak. After all, He is God and He is not limited to only doing one thing at a time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

These are not different comings, they are the same coming. Compare verse 8 with Revelation 19:21. Great tribulation is not in view, His bodily return to the earth is.

How can the coming in verse 1 not involve the coming in verse 8? How can the coming in verse 8 not involve the day of Christ in verse 2? How can the coming in verse 8 be involving great tribulation when it is involving Revelation 19:21? Once again, great tribulation is not in the text, pertaining to verse 2. When verse 2 is meaning, great tribulation is already in the past. Verse 4, OTOH, it is involving great tribulation except verse 2, the day of Christ, is meaning after verse 4 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled.

There is only one coming of Christ recorded in Thessalonians 2, not 2 or more.

Can you produce any Scripture that comes right out and says great tribulation involves the day of the Lord?
 
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KUWN

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Actually, I'm already aware that some interpret it like that. The problem is, great tribulation has zero to do with the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows great tribulation, not occurs during it. Therefore, you are adding to verse 2 something not found in it. Verse 2, the day of Christ refers to verse 1 and also verse 8. IOW, believe it or not, God can multi-task, so to speak. After all, He is God and He is not limited to only doing one thing at a time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

These are not different comings, they are the same coming. Compare verse 8 with Revelation 19:21. Great tribulation is not in view, His bodily return to the earth is.

How can the coming in verse 1 not involve the coming in verse 8? How can the coming in verse 8 not involve the day of Christ in verse 2? How can the coming in verse 8 be involving great tribulation when it is involving Revelation 19:21? Once again, great tribulation is not in the text, pertaining to verse 2. When verse 2 is meaning, great tribulation is already in the past. Verse 4, OTOH, it is involving great tribulation except verse 2, the day of Christ, is meaning after verse 4 is fulfilled, not before it is fulfilled.

There is only one coming of Christ recorded in Thessalonians 2, not 2 or more.

Can you produce any Scripture that comes right out and says great tribulation involves the day of the Lord?

The day of the Lord is first defined in the Old Testament. The OT knows nothing of the Great Tribulation, just the Tribulation. Dan 9 gives us the time period of 7 years.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The first thing to get sorted out, what is meant by 'that day' in verse 3? Obviously, what is recorded in verse 2---the day of Christ.

What then is meant by the day of Christ? Obviously, what is recorded in verse 1---the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him
Agree. And I think that is extremely obvious and that only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing something that is so obvious as this. Once you understand that the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him occurs on "the day of Christ" (the day of the Lord) then it removes any question about what the meaning of the word "apostasia" is in verse 3.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The day of the Lord is first defined in the Old Testament. The OT knows nothing of the Great Tribulation, just the Tribulation. Dan 9 gives us the time period of 7 years.
No. Daniel 9 says nothing about the day of the Lord. Tell me how you are seeing the day of the Lord as being a 7 year time period in these passages:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 

KUWN

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No. Daniel 9 says nothing about the day of the Lord. Tell me how you are seeing the day of the Lord as being a 7 year time period in these passages:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Daniel 9 gives the time line of the last 7 years of the Jewish Dispensation. The covenant signed is for a 7 year period.

Your other verses say that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night. This is a reference to the Rapture. Anyone in the Tribulation can calculate the day of Christ's second coming. In other words, the second coming of Christ will not come as a thief in the night, but will come on the specified day. Note also in 1 Thes 5.2,. people will being saying "Peace and safety." This saying is the exact opposite of what people in the Tribulation will say. More than half the people on earth will be killed, complements of the Antichrist and his armies.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Daniel 9 gives the time line of the last 7 years of the Jewish Dispensation. The covenant signed is for a 7 year period.
I disagree, but nevermind that for now. Where does Daniel 9 say anything about the day of the Lord?

Your other verses say that the DOTL comes as a thief in the night. This is a reference to the Rapture.
Yes, the rapture occurs on the day of the Lord, but so does Christ's wrath against His enemies which Paul described.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Can you see here that on the same day the rapture occurs "sudden destruction cometh upon" Christ's enemies from which "they shall not escape"?

Anyone in the Tribulation can calculate the day of Christ's second coming.
No, they can't. How are you coming up with that?

In other words, the second coming of Christ will not come as a thief in the night, but will come on the specified day.
Wrong. Scripture never teaches this. Have you never read these verses:

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 16:15 is contained within a description of the sixth vial, so the tribulation obviously has already started before that and He still hasn't come as a thief in the night yet at that point.

The Matthew 24:42-44 passage makes it clear that no one will know the day or hour when Jesus will come as a thief in the night.

Note also in 1 Thes 5.2,. people will being saying "Peace and safety." This saying is the exact opposite of what people in the Tribulation will say. More than half the people on earth will be killed, complements of the Antichrist and his armies.
You are reading the book of Revelation too literally. It's a highly symbolic book. It has descriptions of blood coming down to the earth and Christ's enemies being given blood to drink and so on. You can't take all of that literally. The tribulation isn't about physical destruction, it's about an increase in deception, wickedness and apostasy as passages like Matthew 24:9-13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 indicate.

If you read the Olivet Discourse you should see that wars, earthquakes, famines and such are not signs of the nearness of Christ's return but are only "the beginning of sorrows", so you need to take that into account when reading the book of Revelation.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

What Jesus said right after that are the signs that His coming is near rather than physical destruction.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

As for 1 Thess 5:2-3, that is talking about the day Jesus returns which Matthew 24:29-31 says will be "after the tribulation of those days", so please tell me how you interpret that passage.
 

David in NJ

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There is nothing new in this brief post. I am just looking for how non Pre-Tribbers arrive at the meaning of APOSTASIA.

A point of linguistics can help us better understand the noun APOSTASIA. The noun takes its meaning/usage from the verb. In this case, the cognate verb is AFISTHMI (AFISTAMAI).

The verb is used 15 times in the NT, and 12 of these 15 times it is used of a departure. The other 3 are rebellion, revolt.

So, since 80% of the verbs mean a departure (not in the religious sense), how does this inform us of our understanding of APOSTASIA? Do we take into consideration the meaning/usage of the verb when defining APOSTASIA? Do we ignore the verb altogether? Just what are we to do with this noun in light of the usage of AFISTHMI?

I genuinely want to know this, so don't get mad or sarcastic.
Always remind yourself of this fact = the LORD JESUS CHRIST is a Post-Tribber