Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Michiah-Imla]

But paul said present tense. I do not do what I want to do.

The following is “present tense” also:

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1-4)

“Present tense”

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” (Romans 8:5)

Why are you after the flesh?

Here’s more “present tense” scripture for you to ponder:


“ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

So the motions of sins here (below) are no longer “presently” an issue:

Because “were” is a past tense word:

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5)

And since we are no longer in the flesh this scripture no longer applies to us:

“For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:19)

Because Paul already told us:

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.” (Romans 6:12-13)

You notice words like “Let not”, “ye”, and “yourselves”? YOU have to do these things! God doesn’t do this for you!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

so should I make the bible contradict?

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is what makes the Bible contradict.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

they believed they were initially saved in the spirit (like you tell us day after day, initial salvation) but that salvation must be maintained in the flesh

You are referring to the epistle to the Galatians. You are in error.

Paul admonished them because they wanted to be circumcised, not because they wanted to stop sinning!

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2)

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:6)

This has nothing to do with not sinning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The following is “present tense” also:

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1-4)

“Present tense”

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” (Romans 8:5)

Why are you after the flesh?

Here’s more “present tense” scripture for you to ponder:


“ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

So the motions of sins here (below) are no longer “presently” an issue:

Because “were” is a past tense word:

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5)

And since we are no longer in the flesh this scripture no longer applies to us:

“For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:19)

Because Paul already told us:

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.” (Romans 6:12-13)

You notice words like “Let not”, “ye”, and “yourselves”? YOU have to do these things! God doesn’t do this for you!

I am sorry we are all not as perfect as you my friend.

Many of us, Like Myself. Look to Christ for power. but we are not foolsih enough (on our minds) to think we have made it.

Because like paul. We continue to run the race knowing we have not arrived yet.

Paul struggled with Pride. His whole life. Pride is a sin. Paul was not sinless.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I am sorry we are all not as perfect as you my friend.

Me???

“You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

I am sorry that this verse has no effect on you.

Many of us, Like Myself. Look to Christ for power.

So then what’s the problem?

““Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” (John 14:12)

 

[Titus]

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6)

Just the opposite of what James taught,
James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Danthemailman you teach we are justified by only belief.
The bible does not teach this,
James taught the only way a man is justified is by faith and obedient works.

James teaches you cannot be justified with faith only,
James 2:20,
-But do you want to know o foolish man that faith without works is dead?

Faith alone is unprofitable, it can not save,
James 2:14,
-what does it profit my brethren, If someone says he has belief but has no works? Can his faith without works save him?
-Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead.

Clearly, faith with no obedience is a dead, unprofitable worthless faith.
Even the disobedient demons have faith. But their faith is void of works,
James 2:19,
-You believe that there is one God, You do well. Even the demons believe(no works) and tremble.

James conclusion on faith without works:
We are only justified by a living working faith!
James 2:25-26
-Likewise was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
-For as the physical body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

To be saved by a workless faith, is claiming we are saved by a faith that is not justified not perfect, not living, but completely dead as a human corpse without a soul.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are referring to the epistle to the Galatians. You are in error.

Paul admonished them because they wanted to be circumcised, not because they wanted to stop sinning!

Not even sure how stopping sinning came into the picture.

Paul adminished them because they added works to the gospel of grace, period.

I want to stop sinning also.. But that has no bearing on my salvation.

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2)

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor circumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:6)

This has nothing to do with not sinning.

Lets add the word baptized in place of circumcision. or how about giving, or church membership. or not commiting certain sins, Or any kind of work one does to add to the gospel of CHrist of grace through faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Me???

“You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

I am sorry that this verse has no effect on you.

It does not offend me,

Jesus was telling them how to get to heaven according to the law. He tried to show them they failed. Sadly they never got it..

So then what’s the problem?

““Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” (John 14:12)

sorry bro. I don't pump my chest like pharisee thinking I am something I am not and denying my own sin.

You do what you want.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Just the opposite of what James taught,
James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Danthemailman you teach we are justified by only belief.
The bible does not teach this,
James taught the only way a man is justified is by faith and obedient works.

James teaches you cannot be justified with faith only,
James 2:20,
-But do you want to know o foolish man that faith without works is dead?

Faith alone is unprofitable, it can not save,
James 2:14,
-what does it profit my brethren, If someone says he has belief but has no works? Can his faith without works save him?
-Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead.

Clearly, faith with no obedience is a dead, unprofitable worthless faith.
Even the disobedient demons have faith. But their faith is void of works,
James 2:19,
-You believe that there is one God, You do well. Even the demons believe(no works) and tremble.

James conclusion on faith without works:
We are only justified by a living working faith!
James 2:25-26
-Likewise was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
-For as the physical body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

To be saved by a workless faith, is claiming we are saved by a faith that is not justified not perfect, not living, but completely dead as a human corpse without a soul.

James did not contradict paul.

People need to look at WHO james spoke to.

Then look at WHO paul spoke to.

They would see the reason the appear to contradict when they do not.

There is no such thing as a workless faith.. Licentiousness never saved anyone

However. we do not go 180 degrees out. and turn licentious to legalism. You are just as lost if you do this.

The truth is in the middle

 

[Titus]

Romans 4:2-6 is not teaching Abraham was saved by faith only.
Paul is teaching Abraham is saved without keeping the works of the law of Moses.
The Jews in the book of Romans needed to be taught the law of Moses does not save.
Doing the works of the law of Moses will not save Jews just as their father Abraham was not saved by the works of the law of Moses. Paul teaches the jews that their father Abraham was saved by his faith.
Do not assume Paul is teaching a belief only ie mental assent faith. Paul teaches the same kind of faith James teaches!

Abraham's faith was never without works.
Abraham's faith saved him because it was a faith that worked the commandments of God.

Paul is quoting Genesis 15:6 in Romans 4:3,
Romans 4:3 -for what does the Scriptures say? Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 -and he believed the Lord and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Did God account righteousness to Abraham by faith only and no works?

No, Abraham's faith was an obedient working commandment keeping faith,

Genesis 15:6 = Genesis 26:5 Abraham was accounted righteous because his faith was obedient to God,
-because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

Abraham was saved by an obedient working faith not faith that had no works.

 

[Titus]

Faith onlyism teaches you recieve salvation with zero works. That is the false doctrine of sola fide.

No one ever was justified by faith and no obedience to God. No works of righteousness.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Paul adminished them because they added works to the gospel of grace, period.

Works of CIRCUMCISION!

Works like these:

“Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11)

Not works of righteousness!

They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with it’s works, which were:

“Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

You see! If you add again the above works that Christ cleansed you from YOU WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

Because:

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.” (Matthew 12:43-45)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sadly, when your self focused. You have no ability to actually discuss with others what they belief, and your left with no option bit to attack,

Do you agree or disagree with Got Questions short article here?

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Titus]

What works does Paul teach do not justify or account us as righteous?
Answer, works of merit, earning ones salvation by law keeping, just as the Jews thought they could do in the book of Romans. This is why Paul taught them,
Romans 4:2,
-For if Abraham was justified by works(earning salvation by laws of Moses)
-he has something to boast about, but not before God.

The only works a man can boast about would be if he could do work that earned his way to heaven! That is meritorious works salvation!
Paul taught against meritorious works also in Ephesians 2:8-9,
-for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
-not of works lest any man should boast.

Paul does not teach no works are involved in salvation to the Jews in Romans chapter 4.
Paul is teaching no meritorious works are involved in salvation in chapter 4.

Paul does just like James, he teaches works are involved in saving us. Works of obedience!
Galatians 5:6
-for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Paul and James both teach saving faith is a working faith. The works are done because of love for Jesus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you agree or disagree with Got Questions short article here?

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

do you agree or disagree.

You still have failed to meet Gods standard?
Eternal life is eternal not conditional
When Jesus said we will never die, he meant it
When paul said he who began a good work WILL COMPLETE IT. It means he will complete it?

I have no desire to discuss what other people say. I am having a discussion with you. Not GotQuestions

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Works of CIRCUMCISION!

Works like these:

“Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4:10-11)

Not works of righteousness!

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6

 

[Happy Trails]

So what do you think the topic is? The last I checked something like this....
So, the Bishops of Christianity CREATED a bunch of holidays and put them on the days of pagan festivals.
If they had known what they were doing, they would know that kind of thing is strictly forbidden.
But, they didn't because they were pagans who were now in charge of Rome's version of Christianity.
The feasts of Leviticus 23 are the prophetic proof that Jesus is the Messiah. Without them, He's just another self-proclaimed prophet.

The Jew were the first Christians converts...Ya
The first people to recognize their Messiah was Jews. They recognized Him because the events of His death fulfilled the Spring feasts of Leviticus 23.

Those Gentiles joined congregations of Jews.
They did to begin with.
The claim of Christians gathering for worship on Sunday, and NOT observing the Sabbath, is made without a scintilla of evidence. This claim would fall into that category. It is not only useless in its quantifiability, it smacks of desperation.


As the religion grew, Rome knew the best way to capitalize on this new god sweeping the land was to get control of it and use that control to make it be whatever served their needs.
How long do you think they planned that? LOL And how strange a plan was it? The persecutions lasted for over 250 years. Horrible unimaginable persecutions....were they courting them with persecutions.
They didn't have to plan it. Christianity was taking over. They merely secured their positions in the religious hierarchy by forcing compliance to their system. "You can worship any god you want, even Jesus. But, you must conform to OUR rituals, methods and holidays. You can be a Christian and obey us and live. Or, you can stick to what the Bible says, and die."

The Bible says that using pagan holidays and rituals to worship YHVH is an abomination.
The Bible says? Where? I would suspect that this would be the belief in the Old Testament....but I do not think there is an example.
ALL of the prophecies supposedly fulfilled by Jesus are from the OT. Christians constantly cite verses from the OT about how God knows them and wants to bless them. But, they never quote anything about instructions. "The blessings are for Christians, but the instructions are for the Jews." The blessings are inextricably linked to the instructions.

In the NT it is called "pollution of idols." Acts 15:20.
Galatians 4:1-10 "Before you knew the one true God, you served false gods. Jesus set you free from the bondage of worshipping false gods. Why do you desire to return to that beggar status? Why do you desire to return to observing THEIR feasts and holy days, instead of the holy days decreed by YHVH that are ALL ABOUT JESUS?"

Deuteronomy 12:29-32, Jeremiah 10:1-5

Romans 15:4 Paul is telling you the source of the doctrines for the NT Christian is found in the OT.

For the rest of the Holiday thing there is no good answer for Protestants.
I don't know what that means.

What do you think Moses and God would do if someone came up and wanted to change or divide there religion into 30.000 religions?
Why would they care if apostacy is divided?

What do you think Christ and the Apostles would think of people that would fracture Christ's church into 30,000 denominations.....?
They would be thrilled to see it collapsing. The claim that idolatry and pollution is "Christ's church" only testifies to the ubiquitous nature of the deception.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your no different.

there was nothing wrong with circumcision, or doing works of the law.

The issue was they were trying to add them to the gospel as required for salvation.

The law taught that these works must be done to be saved, failure would cause you to lose favor. and you would need to be re-saved by sacrifice.

Its the jewish version of NOSAS. And paul called them fools. because they believed they were initially saved in the spirit (like you tell us day after day, initial salvation) but that salvation must be maintained in the flesh or it would be lost, again like you say.

Granted, Paul spoke to a particular group that had a particular problem.

His message still stands with any group with the same problem.

Well, first nowhere did I say that one could not be circumcised. The point was obviously if they were doing it for salvation.

The Galatian believers were first saved by God’s grace, and now they wanted to be circumcised in order to be saved. This was heresy was condemned at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

Paul says, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).

Okay. Think about Galatians 5:4 in what it is saying. Even if you wanted Galatians 5:4 to be in reference to all law in general (Which it is not talking about - see Galatians 5:2), you would still have to conclude that OSAS is not true by this verse because it says that a believer can fall from grace if they are justified by the Law. Obviously these Galatians were being bewitched to think that way because of circumcision, and thus they were fallen from grace and they needed to repent (confess of this sin to Jesus and live correctly). Galatians 5:2 clarifies what kind of law that Paul says you cannot be justified by.

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).

This is the Law that you cannot be justified by otherwise you are fallen from grace if you do seek to be even later justified by the Law.
This is why OSAS is not true.
Paul says in Galatians 5:19-21 and clarifies what kind of sins you cannot do.
Paul lists various sins in Galatians 5:19-21 and says, they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Meaning, they will not be saved. So you are ripping verses out of context to defend an outside belief (OSAS) that does not exist in the Scriptures, friend.

Anyways, peace and love to you in Christ (even if we disagree strongly on this topic).

 

[Michiah-Imla]

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6

That’s the BEGINNING of the gospel.

You are not a new believer in the faith any more!

You didn’t need works of righteousness when you came as an unsaved person.

But after you must:

“gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:13-16)

Because:

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” (Romans 6:16-17)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6

Right, talking about Initial Salvation because WHEN does the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit happen?
It happens when you are first saved, right? So this is the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace without works because one is being saved by God’s grace and mercy (Which is a process of salvation without any works involved on our part). But AFTER you are saved by God’s grace, you have to believe Paul when he says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Sanctification of the Spirit is living holy according to the power of the Spirit to the context (i.e. the verses before it, and after it). Romans 8:13 confirms this same truth. “Belief of the truth” mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 would be a continual belief in the gospel, and it would be a belief of the truths or key important doctrines in the Bible. For example: You cannot reject the future bodily resurrection of believers and be saved according to 1 Corinthians 15.

Anyways, here is 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 teaching a secondary aspect of salvation
(Which is after we are saved by God’s grace in Ephesians 2:8-9):

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says:

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”
​

I hope this helps to challenge you to look at the Scriptures again with a fresh pair of eyes, friend.

May God’s grace and peace shine upon you.