Once Saved, Always Saved?

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Ferris Bueller

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“ Change “ is great.....even a guy like Hitler could change if he chose to do so...
"4 Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me." John 15:4

The best an unsaved person can hope for is to be a really good hypocrite. But those who know the scriptures will see right through them. John warns us about being deceived by fakes. They simply can't produce the fruit of the Spirit. Character is what reveals if you really belong to God in salvation or not.
 

JohnPaul

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"9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" 1 John 3:9-10

Show me how I'm going by my own interpretation and not by what John says.
Hi Ferris do you believe in OSAS?
 

Ferris Bueller

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I worked with a guy who “ changed” .....he gave up smoking .....at least until he could come over to my place and hide in the garage to puff away....lol....I guess he was a phony, Lost Sinner That had never been Born Again.....right?
Is smoking a sin?
If we say smoking is a sin for the sake of argument, that man would ultimately be showing himself to not be a believer. Whether he ever really believed or not is for the church theologians to wrangle with. For the rest of us, we should just concentrate on holding fast to the gospel, the thing that actually matters.
 

Ferris Bueller

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You say we have to keep ourselves by our continued believing, but Peter says our continued believing is the power of God in us. Your words point us to ourselves. Peter points us to God. Your words make us responsible to keep ourselves unto salvation, Peter gives credit where it belongs. With God.
"20But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life." Jude 1:20-21
If doing that is a self-righteous work that will damn you to hellfire, why does Jude and other authors in the NT exhort us to do it? Obviously, building oneself up in faith and keeping yourself in the love of God is not a self righteous work that replaces reliance on the love and forgiveness of God for one's salvation. It's exactly the way you do rely on the love and forgiveness of God for salvation.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I just want to know Ferris, not trying to be smart.
I understand. I did not sense an ounce of contention in your post. In fact, it showed me that I was being successful at purposely staying out of the argument by not coming right out and taking a stand for OSAS either way, but rather focusing on that which the Bible makes crystal clear to us - keep believing. I just don't see any value in arguing whether or not that automatically happens for the true believer. The point is, that's what we are to do.
 

JohnPaul

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I understand. I did not sense an ounce of contention in your post. In fact, it showed me that I was being successful at purposely staying out of the argument by not coming right out and taking a stand for OSAS either way, but rather focusing on that which the Bible makes crystal clear to us - keep believing. I just don't see any value in arguing whether or not that automatically happens for the true believer. The point is, that's what we are to do.
I'm only asking because I don't believe in it, humanity will always sin, even if they believe in God and Christ.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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@Ferris Bueller so do you believe in OSAS?
That's too broad of a subject. I don't think you can broad stroke every believer into the category of never going back to unbelief. What I believe is there are some believers who are susceptible to going back to unbelief. Weak believers. Which is why I think the Bible exhorts us to grow and be strengthened in faith.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I'm only asking because I don't believe in it, humanity will always sin, even if they believe in God and Christ.
I prefer to think of it in terms of continuing to believe vs. not continuing to believe. Sin doesn't separate the believer from the gospel (because the blood of Christ is always interceding on their behalf). Unbelief does.
 

JohnPaul

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That's too broad of a subject. I don't think you can broad stroke every believer into the category of never going back to unbelief. What I believe is there are some believers who are susceptible to going back to unbelief. Weak believers. Which is why I think the Bible exhorts us to grow and be strengthened in faith.
Even strengthened in Faith we sin, we are not perfect we are made of the flesh and there will be times we slip and think or say something that is sinful.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Even strengthened in Faith we sin, we are not perfect we are made of the flesh and there will be times we slip and think or say something that is sinful.
Yes. I just edited my previous post to address this.
Unbelief separates us from the ministry of Christ, not sin in and of itself.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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He means birth. Birth by water, and birth by the Spirit. And flesh is born of flesh, and spirit is born of spirit. You have to have both. You must be born again. A second time. The first, and the second. Do you see the flow?

Much love!
That's fine if you want to see it that way. What I see is Galatians 4:29 where Paul also talks about flesh born of flesh and we see there that it means the fleshly effort of relating to God through the works of the law to be justified, and how that does not produce a son who will inherit the kingdom, but rather a slave who won't. So, water in John 3:5-6 is probably referring to what was happening when Jesus spoke that - people were being baptized by John, a baptism in water for repentance and the forgiveness of sin. But that, without the spiritual birth, is just flesh giving birth to flesh. Repentance alone births a natural man who will not see or enter into the kingdom of God. For John's baptism of repentance, though necessary, was leading the way to faith in Christ and the birth of the spiritual man.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Wow! What else can I say! The faithfulness of God is a curious but unimportant discussion.
Believing and trusting in God's faithfulness in salvation is what is important. The argument over whether one can technically stop believing and trusting in God's grace or not doesn't change that. You still have to believe and continue to believe to be saved when Jesus comes back either way. That's what matters.

And we have the assurance that we have that believing that saves by how we live. Ultimately, the growth of godly character shows that you have the Spirit inside of you in salvation. Remaining the same as before you supposedly believed shows that you do not have the Spirit inside of you in salvation.
 

Ferris Bueller

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No, I did not bring it up. Because I do not believe there are performance requirements to receive the free gift of justification. A person is justified by having their sin forgiven, not by performing works of righteousness. Works of righteousness are the evidence that you have had your sin forgiven in Christ:

" 47 ...because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47
That's why, ultimately, the absence of this evidence that your sin has been forgiven in Christ shows that your sin has not been forgiven. Assurance of salvation comes from how you live, not from what you claim about being saved.
 

Ferris Bueller

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How do you know Jesus wasn't talking about actual water?

I always wonder, when people say, "but it doesn't really mean what it says."

Much love!
I think I replied to this already. Jesus is talking about actual water. The waters of John' baptism for repentance. And how that repentance alone is not enough to see and enter into the kingdom of God. You must also be born again, from above, by the Spirit.
 

Marymog

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Oh boy, another one... :)

Yeah, you don't need to be saved more than once. :) Just once, and then kept by the power of God. Once the Father gives you to Jesus, He loses not one. This is what the Bible ~ Jesus ~ teaches:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
[John 6:37-40]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:3-5]

Grace and peace to you.
You should read ALL of Scripture instead of the parts that fit what your men have taught you:

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

And there is always the possibility of self-deception: Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I have a suggestion: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When you start believing that you are saved and salvation can't be taken from you, it is then that you have lost your fear and trembling.
 

Ferris Bueller

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You are going on and on endlessly over the dangers of the child of God ceasing to have faith in the Father, while discounting the power of God Who maintains that faith in us.
No one can believe or continue to believe without the presence of God's gift of faith. This has nothing to do with discounting the power of faith that God gives to people so they can know the gospel really is true so they can put their trust in it.