Once Saved, Always Saved?

[marks]

Examining your fruit is how you 'make your calling and election sure'.

You would base your certainty on your opinions of your perceptions of yourself? That seems rather unreliable to me. And where do you see that in Scripture? What does "your fruit" mean to you? Is that your opinion of how much you do or don't live as in flesh?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

[QUOTE="Ferris Bueller, post: 1277814, member: 9156"]2) The argument is the word of God must continue to abide in you in order for you to abide in Him. In other words, continued believing is how you continue in the Son and the Father. There is no argument being made that you remain in him and stay saved by not sinning.

1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV
22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are blessed indeed!

In other words, continued believing is how you continue in the Son and the Father

You would take the credit for God's work? I don't think I'm going to try that.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The power is God's, and His method for working His keeping power is faith unto salvation. And the power is God's, and He is the One Who keeps us.

Much love![/QUOTE]
Good. You think you can never stop believing. Good.
What's important is that you understand that you must believe, and believe to the very end to be saved in the very end. That is what matters. Our opinions about whether or not we can stop believing (a.k.a. OSAS) are interesting but they do not change the fact that a person has to be a believer on the day they die to pass safely through the judgment of fire at the end of the age. OSAS, for or against, does not change that fact one iota. So let's concentrate on what actually matters. Let's encourage and exhort one another to keep believing like the Bible does. It matters not if you are actually able to stop believing or not. Save that for the curious but unimportant discussions about Christianity.

 

[marks]

Here...James is writing this to you:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18

That's how you demonstrate your faith to others, but that's not the proof of your faith. Unbelievers can do good works also. It's the inquiry of a good conscience to God. The real proof is whether you know God, and are known by Him. The real proof is something God alone sees, and testifies to you. As you accept His testimony, your increasing faith makes your life increasingly different.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What's important is that you understand that you must believe,

You'd better remain a human being too! Remember! You must be born of Water and the Spirit! Don't become unborn from water! Lest you be lost!

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You would base your certainty on your opinions of your perceptions of yourself? That seems rather unreliable to me. And where do you see that in Scripture? What does "your fruit" mean to you? Is that your opinion of how much you do or don't live as in flesh?

Much love!

The fruit is the fruit of the Spirit. The qualities of the Spirit. You know that you have the Spirit by the fruit it produces in you - Galatians 5:22-23. Peter explains in 2 Peter 1:5-11 how purposely striving to abound in the qualities of the Spirit in increasing measure is how you make your calling and election sure. IOW, how you confirm that you are called and elected.

 

[marks]

It matters not if you are actually able to stop believing or not.

You've said this before. Are you really that unconcerned over Biblical truth? Especially when the wrong answer makes it harder for people to deal with the sin in their lives? Seriously?

I'm not so casual about this myself. Perceived performance requirements to salvation promote legalistic living, and legalistic living promotes sin.

I suggest we trust Jesus that we have the access into the grace in which we stand, lest we fall.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You'd better remain a human being too! Remember! You must be born of Water and the Spirit! Don't become unborn from water! Lest you be lost!

Much love!

The water and fleshly birth in John 3:5-6 is a metonym for 'repentance', you know, John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin. As I'm sure we both agree, that alone, though necessary, will not enable you to see and enter into the kingdom of God. You must also be born again, from above.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You've said this before. Are you really that unconcerned over Biblical truth?

I'm very concerned about Biblical truth. The Bible says to hold fast to the word of the gospel. Just do it! Stop laboring over whether or not you can not do that. Just do it! That's what the Bible says to do! If you, personally, believe that the believer has no choice but to hold fast to the word, then, good! It's an opinion that has no bearing on whether or not you actually can. Either you will hold fast at God's exhortation to hold fast, or you won't. It's that simple. Let's concentrate on what matters. Hold fast! That's what the Bible says to do.

 

[marks]

The water and fleshly birth in John 3:5-6 is a metonym for 'repentance', you know, John's baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin. As I'm sure we both agree, that alone, though necessary, will not enable you to see and enter into the kingdom of God. You must also be born again, from above.

You know what? Whether or not you think of that water as the water of natural birth or not, the warning remains. If you don't remain human, you will not be conformed to the image of Christ, and therefore Christ in you will not remain your hope of glory. So be certain to remain human!

You may think this silly, but the reasoning is EXACTLY the same. You must remain as God made you, and not change yourself into something else. That's what we are talking about here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm very concerned about Biblical truth. The Bible says to hold fast to the word of the gospel. Just do it! Stop laboring over whether or not you can not do that. Just do it! That's what the Bible says to do! If you, personally, believe that the believer has no choice but to hold fast to the word, then, good! It's an opinion that has no bearing on whether or not you can. Either you will hold fast at God's exhortation to hold fast, or you won't. It's that simple. Let's concentrate on what matters. Hold fast! That's what the Bible says to do.

You are straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel. This is what I mean. You are going on and on endlessly over the dangers of the child of God ceasing to have faith in the Father, while discounting the power of God Who maintains that faith in us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Stop laboring over whether or not you can not do that. Just do it!

I think you may have misunderstood something I've said . . .

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Perceived performance requirements to salvation promote legalistic living, and legalistic living promotes sin.

I agree.
Who brought that up?

 

[marks]

is a metonym for 'repentance',

Of course, this is just saying, "this word doesn't mean what it says, and means something else." I'm not saying that never happens, but why do you say that happens here? How do you know Jesus wasn't talking about actual water?

I always wonder, when people say, "but it doesn't really mean what it says."

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are going on and on endlessly over the dangers of the child of God ceasing to have faith in the Father, while discounting the power of God Who maintains that faith in us.

I'm just saying what the Bible says. No more, no less: Hold fast to the gospel word that you heard. Are you opposed to that simple Bible exhortation?

 

[marks]

I agree.
Who brought that up?

You did.

the curious but unimportant discussions about Christianity.

Wow! What else can I say! The faithfulness of God is a curious but unimportant discussion.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm just saying what the Bible says. No more, no less: Hold fast to the gospel word that you heard. Are you opposed to that simple Bible exhortation?

That's a part of what you say. But not all. Be real. Discussions are better that way. The mind is better that way.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Of course, this is just saying, "this word doesn't mean what it says, and means something else." I'm not saying that never happens, but why do you say that happens here? How do you know Jesus wasn't talking about actual water?

I always wonder, when people say, "but it doesn't really mean what it says."

Much love!

He is talking about actual water. He doesn't say exactly what he means by it. But we can see from Galatians 4:29 what 'flesh born of flesh' means. From there we can see how that relates to this matter of actual water.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Wow! What else can I say! The faithfulness of God is a curious but unimportant discussion.

No, whether or not a believer can actually stop believing is a curious but unimportant matter. What is important and matters is that you continue to believe. That's what the Bible says to do. Why complicate it with a meaningless argument about whether or not you are actually capable of not believing? Just believe! Either you will, or you won't. It's that simple.

 

[marks]

He is talking about actual water. He doesn't say exactly what he means by it.

He means birth. Birth by water, and birth by the Spirit. And flesh is born of flesh, and spirit is born of spirit. You have to have both. You must be born again. A second time. The first, and the second. Do you see the flow?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's that simple.

Either you are acknowledging the faithfulness of God, or you are not. It's that simple.

This unimportant discussion takes a misconception of what rebirth is, and devaluates the glory and power from God, and elevates the frailty of man. I reject that resoundingly, and particularly as such a denial of plainly stated Scripture, such as the one's I've posted from Peter.

You say the Word may not remain, but Peter says it does. You say we have to keep ourselves by our continued believing, but Peter says our continued believing is the power of God in us. Your words point us to ourselves. Peter points us to God. Your words make us responsible to keep ourselves unto salvation, Peter gives credit where it belongs. With God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm just saying what the Bible says. No more, no less: Hold fast to the gospel word that you heard. Are you opposed to that simple Bible exhortation?

Not true. If you only said what the Bible says, you would be preaching the faithfulness of God to His children, and the dangers of false conversion to those who are not.

Much love!