On the pre-existence of Jesus

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ElieG12

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... human philosophies distort what scriptures do say.
And people have their own minds, so the latch onto the ideas of other people that they feel good about, as you also have done.
I don't relate to teachers having taught me for what I latch onto as true as people are fallible...
You have realized that some beliefs you have held are not biblical. It is wise of you to rectify your doctrines when you realize that you were wrong. Perhaps you should also study the subject of Jesus Christ further.

Why does the Bible call him "the firstborn of all creation" in Col. 1:15, and "the beginning of the creation by God" in Rev. 3:14?
Why does Jesus himself say that he lives because of the Father (John 6:57)?
Did any disciple of Jesus ever say that Jesus was equal to God in eternity?
Why are the phrases "Son of God" and "God-Son" so different in meaning?

Why do the things said in the Scriptures not agree with the Jesus taught in Trinitarian religions?
 

Scott Downey

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You have realized that some beliefs you have held are not biblical. It is wise of you to rectify your doctrines when you realize that you were wrong. Perhaps you should also study the subject of Jesus Christ further.

Why does the Bible call him "the firstborn of all creation" in Col. 1:15, and "the beginning of the creation by God" in Rev. 3:14?
Why does Jesus himself say that he lives because of the Father (John 6:57)?
Did any disciple of Jesus ever say that Jesus was equal to God in eternity?
Why are the phrases "Son of God" and "God-Son" so different in meaning?

Why do the things said in the Scriptures not agree with the Jesus taught in Trinitarian religions?
No one is born knowing all truth. You're quick to go on the attack I see.
We are all continually learning, but some have received error as true, which I can also say of yourself.
 

ElieG12

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You're quick to go on the attack I see.
That is what you are saying about my posts. But the facts show something different. Look what you just said after that:
We are all continually learning, but some have received error as true, which I can also say of yourself.
And this you said before:
... people have their own minds, so they latch onto the ideas of other people that they feel good about, as you also have done.
So, who is attacking whom? I'm just glossing over your attacks and focusing on the important points of the topic.

I can continue showing what the Scriptures say about Jesus and God in another moment.

Have a good day.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Accuse your enemy of what you are doing, as you are doing it to create confusion.” - Karl Marx.

its not new what these people are doing
 

ElieG12

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Personally I believe they recognized him, as the Word of God that became flesh. ...
In the book of Revelation we are told that Jesus is called "the Logos of God" in heaven even after he was resurrected.

Rev. 19:11 I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Do you think that, just as he is after he ascended, Jesus (the Logos of God) was another spirit being at God's side before he was born as a human?
 

MatthewG

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In the book of Revelation we are told that Jesus is called "the Logos of God" in heaven even after he was resurrected.

Rev. 19:11 I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Do you think that, just as he is after he ascended, Jesus (the Logos of God) was another spirit being at God's side before he was born as a human?


Hello @ElieG12,

My current take is that Yeshua and Yahavah became as one in the beginning before Yahavah had sent the Word of God born flesh.

How do I reconciled this? The only thing that comes to mind and heart is when the three disciples that went with Jesus up on top of the mountain, and the vision of Jesus becoming pure white; and they seen Moses and Elijah but at the end of the vision they just seen Jesus standing there. I believe this vision was the glorified Yeshua, and the Father becoming one; once everything has been completed.

I can’t say the references I can’t remember it was a total of three or it was a total of two accounts in the written Gospels.

I could be wrong, it’s always liable for me to be wrong but the one whom sits on the Throne I believe is Yahavah, and the Word of God, back at the prior position before being sent; as the Revelation also states Jesus saying that he was going to be sitting with his Father on his throne; however the position would be His Father first and then the Word: because of a verse founded in Corinthians I think; when it states when all things were placed under the feet of Yeshua, Yeshua would give everything back to his Father in Heaven, and be subject under him once more.

Thank you for the question as it came to mind recently on what I thought about these things but I just ain’t really wrote them out nor sought after putting it all together, just typing this out on the whim; of having just now seen your question it’s a great one.
 
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RLT63

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Based on what you have learned or been taught, how would you respond to this question: Did the disciples recognize that Jesus had lived in heaven before being born as a human?

Later I'll post about what I've learned in my Bible study on that matter.

PS: Whichever you answer, please prove it with biblical passages if possible. Thank you.

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Jhn 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
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Jhn 6:41 - The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
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Jhn 6:42 - And they said,Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
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Jhn 6:51 - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man-eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread-that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
 

RLT63

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In the book of Revelation we are told that Jesus is called "the Logos of God" in heaven even after he was resurrected.

Rev. 19:11 I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Do you think that, just as he is after he ascended, Jesus (the Logos of God) was another spirit being at God's side before he was born as a human?
Read John chapter one
 

Davy

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That is a common mistake: implying that Jesus had no beginning because he already existed at the beginning.

Uh... that's not a mistake. See Hebrews 7 about Melchisedec, which is about Lord Jesus.

Heb 7:3
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
KJV


Jesus was Eternal with The Father, and the Book of Hebrews says The Father created all things through Jesus.

Where some brethren get confused on timings is with forgetting that Christ was ordained to be born in the flesh to die on the cross is a separate Ministry than His Eternal status with The Father before this present world. Some misinterpret Hebrews 1 about Jesus being 'made', thinking that means Christ was 'created', when that is not the meaning. The part of Christ that was 'made', or created, was His flesh body for the purpose of suffering on the cross for us. Yet Christ's Spirit while in the flesh remained the same and as much Eternal as it ever was, and is.
 

APAK

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Jesus did tell them that he was from heaven, and they knew who he was sir.
(John 6:41) . . .the Jews began to murmur about him because he had said: “I am the bread that came down from heaven.. . .
(John 6:51) 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven.. . .
(John 8:23) . . .He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. . .
Do you know what idioms are Robert, especially as used in the scriptures?
You have quoted 3 of them in your reply already...and they are never to be taken quite literally although their literal meanings are hidden and must be though out with some wisdom.
 

RLT63

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Do you know what idioms are Robert, especially as used in the scriptures?
You have quoted 3 of them in your reply already...and they are never to be taken quite literally although their literal meanings are hidden and must be though out with some wisdom.
Do you know what came down from heaven means?
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Jhn 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even-the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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ScottA

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Based on what you have learned or been taught, how would you respond to this question: Did the disciples recognize that Jesus had lived in heaven before being born as a human?

Later I'll post about what I've learned in my Bible study on that matter.

PS: Whichever you answer, please prove it with biblical passages if possible. Thank you.

According to John 1 and Hebrews 13:8, they at least eventually did know it to be true. But the mere fact that Jesus is God (as many scriptures indicate), there should be no question.
 
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APAK

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Do you know what came down from heaven means?
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Jhn 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even-the Son of man which is in heaven.
Yes, who 'came down'...
 

Scott Downey

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Another proof of the divine pre existence of Christ. All the OT prophets whose words are recorded for us in the Word of God, they spoke by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,

11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to [e]us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.
 
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APAK

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It was right there in the verse
Jhn 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even-the Son of man which is in heaven.
that's right RTL63...like when he, his Spirit came down from heaven, as he is, and his Spirit is from heaven, and entered my heart and I was reborn many decades ago. And thus I'm now in heaven as well, in the Kingdom in the Spirit of God, as Christ was and is today.
 

ElieG12

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Uh... that's not a mistake. See Hebrews 7 about Melchisedec, which is about Lord Jesus.
What did Paul really mean when he said Melchizedek had not "beginning of days"? Was Melchizedek literally fatherless and motherless?

Heb. 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, that is, “King of Peace.” 3 In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but being made like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.
4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham, the family head, gave a tenth out of the best spoils. 5 True, according to the Law, those of the sons of Levi who receive their priestly office have a commandment to collect tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, even though these are descendants of Abraham. 6 But this man who did not trace his genealogy from them took tithes from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. 7 Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater. 8 And in the one case, it is men who are dying who receive tithes, but in the other case, it is someone of whom witness is given that he lives. 9 And it could be said that even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes through Abraham, 10 for he was still a future descendant of his forefather when Melchizedek met him.
 

APAK

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What did Paul really mean when he said Melchizedek had not "beginning of days"? Was Melchizedek literally fatherless and motherless?

Heb. 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, that is, “King of Peace.” 3 In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but being made like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.
4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham, the family head, gave a tenth out of the best spoils. 5 True, according to the Law, those of the sons of Levi who receive their priestly office have a commandment to collect tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, even though these are descendants of Abraham. 6 But this man who did not trace his genealogy from them took tithes from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. 7 Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater. 8 And in the one case, it is men who are dying who receive tithes, but in the other case, it is someone of whom witness is given that he lives. 9 And it could be said that even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes through Abraham, 10 for he was still a future descendant of his forefather when Melchizedek met him.
Let me make a stab at it if you do not mind....

Paul/or who actually wrote Hebrews was relating Melchizedek to Jesus Christ for one important note - being a legitimate priest under the Law.

These two were priests with a common background and yet legitimate priests under God and not under the Law.. Why, may you ask...

Many in the audience knew of the Law of Moses in the OT. They knew that to become a priest, one had to show proof of a genealogy/lineage of a priestly line starting from Aaron of the tribe of Levi. This was a major point for being qualified as a priest under the Law/OT.

You see the Jews/Judeans did not believe that Jesus could be a high priest. The Law of Moses demanded that priests be descendants of Aaron and of the tribe of Levi. Of course, Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah. This “problem” is actually clearly set forth in the book of Hebrews itself: “For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests” (verse 14).

The solution is simple. This section of Hebrews shows that if Melchizedek can be a priest recognized by Abraham, and he had no priestly genealogy, then Christ can be a priest when he has no priestly genealogy.

As Ezra 2: 62 states:
"These sought their place among those who were registered by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they deemed polluted and put from the priesthood."

Thus the Jews were very aware of the “qualifications” for the priesthood, and if someone claimed to be a priest but could not produce the required genealogy, he was disqualified.

And thus in Hebrews, when this verse says Melchizedek had no genealogy or beginning or end, the Jews understood perfectly that it meant he did not come from a line of priests. They never thought, nor would they believe, that he had no father or mother or birth or death.

BL: They understood that if Melchizedek could be a priest to Abraham without being a descendant of Aaron, the first priest, then so could Jesus Christ.

Oh, and for those folks who also believe that Jesus was actually be Melchizedek

Heb 7:3 states that Melchizedek was without Father or mother and without genealogy - none found in scripture. However, Jesus did have a father, God, and a mother, Mary. He also had a genealogy, in fact, two; one in Matthew and one in Luke.

And finally, this verse says that Melchizedek was “like the Son of God.” If he was “like” the Son, then he could not “be” the Son of God.
 
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