Well Colossians 1:13 specifically says it’s the kingdom of the Son. That would mean those conditions occur prior to the Son handing the kingdom over to the Father, right?
Offenders in the kingdom
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tailgator
Well-Known Member
Jesus said many will come from the east and west to the kingdom of heaven.
They are not going up or down.
Do you not know where they are going to?
Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
In the same place where many from the east and west go to is also the same place the people who are there are cast out.
You seem to have a problem understanding how the subjects of that kingdom got there to begin with because you don't know where they are..
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Here are the same subjects being cast out on the day of the Lord. Do o you not know who these subjects are and from where they are being cast out?
Amos ,5
“Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
26 You have lifted up the shrine of your king,
the pedestal of your idols,
the star of your god[b]—
which you made for yourselves.
27 Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus,”
says the Lord, whose name is God Almighty.
Beyond Damascus is a good hint as to what kingdom they are being cast out of.
Obviously they are going to the kingdom of heaven.
The subjects got there through the old covenant. Not everyone who obeyed the old covenant was saved.
Look at the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-27, he obeyed the law from his youth up. Jesus said he lacked one thing, to sell all that he had and give it to the poor, and follow me.
That man obeyed the law but wasn’t saved. That is an example of how someone could get into the kingdom, while not being saved, and then thrown outside.
How do you think the subjects got into the kingdom? I’m referring to the subjects that get thrown out.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
First you say someone has to be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Then you say someone can enter the kingdom of heaven by keeping the law in the old testament.
You truly have no clue as to where the kingdom of heaven is located on the map.You don't know if you would need to travel east or west or which way to go .You also don't have a clue as to how a Jew can be kicked out of the kingdom promised to Abraham ,Issac and Jacob..
You don't even know where the land is that is promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob for an everlasting kingdom.
.
Mathew 11:8
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Abraham,Isaac and Jacob will be there after they are resurected..They inherit that land for an everlasting possession.Do you still not know where the kingdom that was promised to Abraham is?
Listen to me, prior to the cross, before the new covenant came into effect, people entered the kingdom through the old covenant. Now, after the cross, it is impossible to enter the kingdom without being born again. Got it?
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off …
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
The promises are fulfilled in the heavenly realm.
ewq1938
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Ok, so in the parable of the tares we have the angels gathering both the wheat and the tares out of that kingdom. Since only believers are currently translated into the Son’s kingdom the parable of the tares must be talking about a different kingdom than the Son’s kingdom.
What would you call the current kingdom that contains both the wheat and tares?
ewq1938
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That's the Kingdom that started at the second coming and lasts a thousand years. Tares exist until the GWTJ. There are no tares in the Father's kingdom
The translating into the Son's kingdom is not literal. No one goes physically to a new kingdom when they are saved. You are conflating a spiritual kingdom with a literal kingdom.
The kingdom of this current world is satan's kingdom. At the second coming it becomes Christ's kingdom. Tares remain in that kingdom for a short time.
+
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The issue here is that every poster is missing the explanation Jesus gave, and generalizing the tares to be any one any time throughout history. They are just making up their own intepretation of the parable, and disregard the explanation Jesus already provided.
The tares and the contemporary wheat takes place in a small window of time involving a specific group of individuals. This time is life on earth that post trib people deny even happens, so they will not even understand any questions and answers about this parable.
Then pre-trib people will deny Jesus is on the earth between the 6th Seal and 7th Trumpet. They deny the Second Coming brings Jesus to the earth at the 6th Seal, before the 7th Seal is even opened, and the first Trumpet even sounds. All they see is a rapture and Jesus doing absolutely nothing on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders.
This parable can only apply to a period when Jesus is in person on the earth.
It was either the 3.5 years between His baptism and ascension. Or it will be the 3.5 years as the Prince to Come.
Either the kingdom applied to every one for 3.5 years in the first century with Jesus a Messiah and Messiah's kingdom, or everyone after the church and the sheep are removed during the kingdom of the Prince.
So if Jesus sowed the seed in the first century, then a bunch of people were removed by angels and physically taken to heaven, and have been there for 1994 years, while others were tossed physically alive into the LOF by the angels, the second death, and have been there for 1994 years. That was the Messiah's kingdom placed in heaven while many were tossed out into the LOF.
Or this parable only involves people alive after Jesus has set up His throne as Prince in Jerusalem, and then the angels physically toss many into the LOF, and the rest are physically taken to heaven. Or they just remain as wheat along with the sheep of Israel and live on the earth. Jesus never leaves, because this is where His kingdom is as He returned as Prince as promised.
That kingdom has no sin and death, because all the wicked have been removed. Only righteousness reigns from that point on. Not that there is an ongoing cleansing where each generation is either tossed out while a few remain. This parable is that short window of time between the Second Coming, and a kingdom of everlasting righteousness.
That is why the wicked are being rooted out of the kingdom so it can begin with righteousness. It cannot even start until Jesus as the Prince to come arrives in person on the earth. But there is a cleansing and restoration process also involved.
This is the baptism of fire per 2 Peter 3, where all the works of earth are burned up, and then the sheep and goats are removed. Then the wheat and tares are removed. In Revelation this is the period of time between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet when Jesus is declared King of every nation. The angels will also be on the earth facilitating in the transfer of humans. Since the baptism of fire, Jesus will not be using international flights to transfer humanity. That is what the angels are for. There are way more angels than humans, so it may not take that long. But it certainly is after the Second Coming, and not that earth is going to be prepared and have time, leading up to a Second Coming.
At the 5th Seal, the church and heavenly kingdom of God will be complete. No one else will be part of the church and that kingdom until the New Jerusalem descends to the earth.
The kingdom on the earth during the final harvest is the Kingdom of Christ as Prince since the Prince part kicks in at the Second Coming. All nations will be announced His, as soon as all that offends is also removed. This length of time will not be 3.5 years, as Jesus says this time will be shortened for the elects sake. To deny that Jesus is physically on the earth, is to deny that the Son of man is the one sowing the wheat.
"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom."
This time is shortened for the children of the kingdom's sake. These are still elect on earth, while the church elect wait in heaven.
"should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"
That resting part means their work on earth was over, and the short season shows what Jesus does on the earth will not take up a lot of time. But it will happen between the 6th Seal and time up at the 7th Trumpet. That will be the end of the world of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that prevailed for over 6,000 years. The Millennial Kingdom will have nothing whatsoever to do with the world as we know it today. The change from the OT to the NT was big. The end of Adam's flesh, and the beginning of Jesus' Kingdom will be an even bigger change.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Sowing everywhere on earth is a given understanding. That you thought heaven is included in that lacks discern and perception.
Correct. Jesus started sowing at Pentecost, when the Church was born and then forward to the present time.
And I said God owns everything. Now I am implying both physical and spiritual realms. I gave you a scripture: John 16:11
"Jesus said, Satan is the ruler of this world." You seem to be unable to process that. God us sovereign, owns everything; yet for a period of time allows Satan and evil in the world - for his purpose, which is partially that we learn to know the difference between good and evil, that His elect are reconciled to God through Christ and we developed a relation with Him, learn to know and love him.
I did not create and choose that reality, God created and ordained that reality. Again refer to John 16:11
Now try to discern and factor this into reality:
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
"evil" is translated also as calamities, troubles, disasters, doom, woe.
No, where did I say that? Tares have been in the mix all along. Satan sows the tares and we can go back to the origin of sin. He really began sowing tares in God's chosen nation too. Then the Church was grafted in.
But wait, God put Satan in the Garden for a purpose. So God is actually controlling and doing all these things, creating good and evil - He said it in Isaiah 45:7, which confounds many and they can't get their mind around it. You cannot grasp this concept, nor can many.
This is what God's sovereignty means, He has everything under control and ordained it all within His plan that will end well.
I gave the answer to your question in post #102. You did not get it. Jesus' kingdom is a heavenly kingdom which I pointed out when Jesus told Pilot. So Jesus sows His heavenly kingdom_ on earth _ that is not His "kingdom" yet ( even though He owns everything). Owning the earth doesn't mean everyone on earth is your child, obedient only to God. The world system is darkness and ruled by Satan.
I told you that at the 7th Trumpet, many things happen, specifically (in #2 of my post), that the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord. So then, Jesus takes back the rule and reign of the earth and sweeps it clean of Satan, demons, evil and destroys his enemies.
Then earth will be included in His kingdom, " on earth as it is in heaven"...what we have been praying for two thousand years.
Taken
Well-Known Member
No.
Jesus KINGDOM…for 1,000 years is defined…
* Jerusalem…Location of the KINGS seat of Governance.
* Kingdom….Bordered LAND Location all Land encompassed in Gods defined Promised Land.
* World Nations….Bordered Lands Around outside of the Kingdom.
* World Nations…Made up of: a remnant of Mortal “Believers”… WHO:
NEVER physically died during the Tribulation
NEVER converted during the Tribulation.
ARE under the “Rulership” of the KING and His Kingdom.
IN Brief; After the Tribulation;
The first generation ARE Believers…Mortals, marry, have offspring, generation to generation.…
Born, reproduce die, next generation repeat for the next 1,000 years…(without the presence of Satan)
Kings of the nation-S pilgrimage yearly to Jesus’ Kingdom…INTENT…that the Kings of the Nation-S learn, continue, Governing their Nation-S according to the Word of God…
World Nations…(country AND people thereof)….Prosper, Needs met…all do well.
VOID of Satans influence…Nation-S / the People…prospering, comfortable, no “need” to oppress others and confiscate their goods / wealth…
BEGIN…(from their Kings downward to the People)…to see, find, have no need to Pilgrimage to Jesus’ Kingdom, Think about, Worry about, God, The Lord….
THEY COMFY…!
THEY STOP “being in a relationship” WITH the KING.
The KING STOPS “being in a relationship” WITH THEM.
Their Prosperity, Needs, having been FREELY provided…BEGINS to default…Crops fail, Nations begin squabbling, wars, confiscation, thefts, briberies, deceit, sicknesses, greed replays…(like in this world)…
Nearing the end of the 1,000 years, Nations are against Nations…(like in this world.)
Ending the 1,000 years, Satan is loosed to once again INFLUENCE the Nations.
Satans INFLUENCE…has Not Changed.
Whaa whaa “you poor people”….
(Paraphrasing)
“Your woes are the KINGS FAULT!!” …. “FOLOW ME” (Satan)…”I’ll be your KING”…
“PREPARE yourselves”….”COME”…..”WAR with me”….”De-THRONE your KING”…”SEAT ME”….and “ALL WILL BE GOOD FOR YOU”…!!
And thus…ALL the Nations (having generationally been rejecting their KING) are primed to Follow after Satan’s Deceit to ATTACK the KING, His throne, His Kingdom…With Satan leading the Command!
The ATTACK will ensue…
The KING shall draw “HIS” two edged SWORD. (And understanding the meaning of the KINGS two edged sword is important).
Satan’s quest of deceiving the Nations and people thereof…Begins and Ends with FAILURE. AND the people of the Nations are participants AND witnesses to Satan’s Failure and their own inevitable Demise.
IT’s an UH..OH…from the witnesses perspective…
Matt 22… is in regard to the UH OH…of mortals having generationally with-drawn from their KING…then falling for Satan’s cunningness…having an OH NO revelation…and then TRYING to FLIP BACK….”as NOT being a part of SATAN’S coup…” and thinking they can “squeeze in unnoticed among the crowd who established and KEPT a forever relationship with their KING.
Conundrum….”THOSE Having (even despite hardships) Kept their vows and allegiance to Their KING…”on visible sight”…are “expressly, externally, Different FROM those who rejected their KING…and the DESERTERS are QUICKLY, Identifiable and Ejected.
AS Scripture reveals…”IF” a man IS NOT WITH the Lord God….that man “IS” Against Him… Period.
* Belief…is not ONLY about an “Indication”…
* Spiritually…BELIEF is about a free and willing COMMITMENT…
** A man who makes a COMMITMENT to the Lord God…that commitment IS FOREVER.
** A man who makes a COMMITMENT to Satan…that commitment IS FOREVER.
They were Free to come and go to the KINGS Kingdom…(earthly kingdom…Promised Land, Jesus KING)…
UNTIL they are part of the Mob showing up to Attack..
OOPS…on losing side.
Attempt to squeeze unnoticed with the people they USED to stand WITH…
FAILS…they ARE noticed and ejected.
Glory to God,
Taken
tailgator
Well-Known Member
They desired a heavenly country means they never had one.They died and were buried long before the heavenly country appears and are still buried until Christ comes and founds that heavenly country
You still have not said what year you are claiming the seventh Trump was blown and that heavenly country was founded.
That is when Abraham ,Jacob ,Issac and all other prophets are rewarded with the heavenly country.
Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
As of today,this kingdom upon earth is full of weeds and wheat.When Christ comes,this kingdom.in revelation 11:15 will be given to the prophets and all the tares will be burned.
Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
You still don't know where this kingdom is?You still don't know how the tares are in the kingdom of this world before it becomes the heavenly kingdom awaited by the prophets of God?
These prophets,by the way.
Revelation 11
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
PS
When those who destroy the earth are destroyed in revelation 18,is when the tares are burned.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
PS
When did you say this heavenly country was founded upon earth as God has promised?
Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
Taken
Well-Known Member
Correct.
BECAUSE…Scripture DOES NOT TEACH “Jesus” is on earth during the Tribulation.
Scripture teaches / reveals Jesus IS the Son of Man and came to Earth, returned to Heaven….and will RETURN AFTER the tribulation…NOT BEFORE…NOT DURING!!
FALSE…
Correct…denying your timeframe.
No…Don’t Ever see Jesus “doing nothing”.
No…Rapture is Revenant which applies to them…yet are fully aware other events that are applicable to other people.
YOU MUST take the TRUTH out of CONTEXT to arrive at YOUR conclusion.
He who came forth OUT FROM GOD…was expressly NAMED JESUS…and called the Son of man.
WHAT Titles/ descriptions/ were revealed and related to HIM while ON Earth…DOES NOT undermine or change His ROLE.
The Son of Man…was SENT to Earth…
The Son of Man…RETURNED to Heaven…
The Son of Man…SHALL Return to Earth…
The Son of God, the Lord, The Christ, The Lamb of God, the High Priest, etc. EACH HAVE SPECIFIC Roles and Things (task, missions ) to ACCOMPLISH …
AS DID the Son of Man; JESUS.
When you take the TRUTH out of CONTEXT, you end up with a LIE.
For Example…(using Donald J. Trump as an example)…
Donald J. Trump…(is or had these roles/titles/descriptions)
A father……but not your father
A grand-father…but not your g-father
CEO…multiple businesses, but not your CEO
President…of companies, but not your Prez
Employer…of companies, but not your Emp.
Neighbor…but, not your neighbor.
Friends…but, not your friend.
Relatives….but, not your relative.
Charitable giver…but, not to you.
Student…but, not your student.
Teacher…but, not your teacher.
US President…Your President, like it or not.
The Heavenly Lord God Almighty….IS the creator AND Maker…of you, like it or not.
His “umpteen” Names, Titles, Descriptions…REVEALS under WHICH Name, Title, Description HE is operating and effecting HIS OWN WILL;
Teacher, Forgiver, Savior, Quickener, Divider, Separator, King, Servant, Judged, Judge…on and on…
He IS BOUND by His Names/Titles/.
He IS NOT BOUND by TIME or SPACE.
The Son of Man was SENT from Heaven to Earth….Earthy men SAW Him.
The Son of Man IS IN Heaven….Earthly men CAN NOT SEE Him.
The Son of Man SHALL return to Earth…ALL Heavenly beings, ALL Living men, ALL souls, (saved or not, in or out of their body’s) SHALL SEE HIM.
The Heavens, the Sky’s, the Clouds…ARE NOT EARTH.
WHAT…the Lamb of God does, and WHERE…IS NOT the ROLE of The Son of Man.
WHAT…the Son of God does, and WHERE….is NOT the ROLE of the Son of Man.
WHAT…the Christ does, and WHERE….is NOT the ROLE of the Son of Man.
WHAT…the Lord does, and WHERE…is NOT the ROLE of the Son of Man.
WHEN the Lamb of God…IN HEAVEN Opens the 7 Seals, (one by one) IN Heaven…HE “IS” fulfilling a ROLE … ONLY / EXPRESSLY HE ALONE is tasked with accomplishing…
HE is NOT ON EARTH…nor is HE fulfilling the ROLE of the Son of Man.
IF you pay CLOSE ATTENTION to WHOM is expressly Identified IN Scripture….and WHAT is expressly IN Scriptural TEXT and IN CONTEXT accounted to them…ie.
The Rabbi, the High Priest, the Master, the Son of Man, the Lord, the Savior, the Christ, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, Son of God…etc. etc. THEN will you LAND on the TRUTH God has provided and approved FOR manKinds Benefit.
God bless you.
Glory to God,
Taken
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Here,the prophet Ezekiel wrote about the heavenly kingdom.He wrote about everyone having the spirit of God in them and they all keep the commandments of God which is a sign of the everlasting covenant.He wrote about a king who reigns forever.
Can you tell me where this heavenly kingdom is located on a map or do you say it is on another planet?
Ezekiel 37
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people
No, I’m agreeing with you, we are not physically translated into the Son’s kingdom but that wasn’t my point. My point was that currently no unbelievers are translated into the Son’s kingdom. Therefore the kingdom that currently has both the wheat and tares cannot be the Son’s kingdom.
Since you have the wheat and tares in Satan’s kingdom this means the Son of man sows in Satan’s kingdom which doesn’t fit the parable where the enemy comes to sow the tares only after the wheat was sown in His field and the servants slept.
Ah, here is another problem, you have the tares enter and remain in Christ’s kingdom for 1,000 years. People who are not born again can’t enter the kingdom.
This view doesn’t mesh with verses such as John 3:5.
I can see that you are of the opinion that Jesus sows in Satan’s kingdom. I personally don’t think that fits the parable of the tares.
Prior to the cross, at the time the parable was told, Israel was Gods chosen people. The parable is about the kingdom of heaven and the explanation is that the field is on earth vs heaven, not that the field is the entire earth.
In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing when He spoke those words.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus was sowing in Israel which wasn’t Satan’s kingdom, prior to Pentecost.
Ok, so are you saying unsaved people can physically enter and exit the kingdom but only people who are born again can spiritually enter the kingdom?
What about 1 Corinthians 15:50 flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption? The word inherit includes partaking of the inheritance so it doesn’t seem possible to me that the unsaved could enter and partake of a future kingdom.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Truth in context is that Jesus is on the earth at the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming.
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