Offenders in the kingdom

[ewq1938]

Well that could be but there is a solution that makes sense as to why the offenders are in the kingdom, and agrees with John 3:5 that only born again can enter the kingdom.

Offenders are in the Earthly kingdom during the Millennium. They will not enter the kingdom of heaven, which is the eternal age (Rev 21) ie: after the GWTJ and LOF of Rev 20.

 

[grafted branch]

Offenders are in the Earthly kingdom during the Millennium. They will not enter the kingdom of heaven, which is the eternal age (Rev 21) ie: after the GWTJ and LOF of Rev 20.

The parable of the tares starts out like this in Matthew 13:24 “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened ….”

How can the offenders in this parable not be in the kingdom of heaven?

 

[ewq1938]

The parable of the tares starts out like this in Matthew 13:24 “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened ….”

How can the offenders in this parable not be in the kingdom of heaven?

Because it does not start out with that kingdom but a different kingdom. The KoH is the end result not the start.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

This would be the Earthly kingdom. Sinner and saint exist together. Note that it's the Son's kingdom.


Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is a kingdom without sinners, known as the KoH or here as the kingdom of the father. The Father does not come here until the Rev 21 eternal age.

 

[grafted branch]

This is a kingdom without sinners, known as the KoH or here as the kingdom of the father. The Father does not come here until the Rev 21 eternal age.

The kingdom of the Father can only take place once Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

If the kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of the Father then how do you explain Matthew 11:12?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

[ewq1938]

The kingdom of the Father can only take place once Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

If the kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of the Father then how do you explain Matthew 11:12?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Since I don't think unsaved mortals can take the kingdom of heaven, it's likely speaking of those who will belong to that future kingdom. They are suffering violence and being "taken" ie: killed.

 

[grafted branch]

Since I don't think unsaved mortals can take the kingdom of heaven, it's likely speaking of those who will belong to that future kingdom. They are suffering violence and being "taken" ie: killed.

If events that happened during the days of John the Baptist, approx 2,000 years ago, are viewed as happening to the kingdom of the Father and not a so called “earthly kingdom” then that same principle should be applied to the parable of the tares, especially when the parable starts out using the statement “The kingdom of heaven is likened ….”.

Ok, next problem, since you place the parable of the tares in the millennium, how can Satan sow the tares when he is bound in the bottomless pit?

In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing when He spoke those words. It looks like you might have Satan currently roaming around as a lion, not sowing any tares, then when he is bound in the bottomless pit, he starts sowing the tares. Is that right?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, next problem, since you place the parable of the tares in the millennium

The tares being gathered and burned is after the Mill not during it.

In Matthew 23:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing when He spoke those words. It looks like you might have Satan currently roaming around as a lion, not sowing any tares, then when he is bound in the bottomless pit, he starts sowing the tares. Is that right?

No. The sowing of tares happens LONG before he is locked in the pit.

 

[grafted branch]

The tares being gathered and burned is after the Mill not during it.



No. The sowing of tares happens LONG before he is locked in the pit.

Ok, so really none of the parable has anything to do with the millennium, right?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, so really none of the parable has anything to do with the millennium, right?

Only one part would:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Before the Mill.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest:

Before and during the Mill.



and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

After the Mill at the GWTJ.

 

[Timtofly]

So you believe the wheat that are the children of the kingdom of heaven is not the church that is gathered at Christs coming.

Strange gospel you are preaching.

How can they be the kingdom of heaven, when they were not the church raptured at the Second Coming?

Why would the church still be on the earth after the Second Coming?

The kingdom of heaven is in heaven. That kingdom of heaven is where the majority of the church has been for 1994 years.

The wheat is the final harvest for life on earth during the Millennium. People cannot be on earth and in heaven at the same time.

The 5th Seal should explain the difference between the church and the wheat:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them (the church) ; and it was said unto them (the church) , that they (the church) should rest yet for a little season, until their (the church) fellowservants (the wheat) also and their (the church) brethren (the sheep), that should be killed as they (the church) were, should be fulfilled."

The church is not on the earth while the sheep and wheat are killed/redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The church is waiting in heaven until the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom are gathered, the wheat and the sheep.

The kingdom of heaven was established when Daniel was given his earthly ministry as one of the prophets. That is what God told Nebuchadnezzar.

At the Cross, the kingdom of heaven was made physically available, when Jesus was the physical Lamb of God for the redemption of mankind. That is why those in Abraham's bosom were allowed a physical resurrection, to enter heaven. Why would you call the Gospel strange? It is the means whereby one receives eternal life. Eternal life is granted when one is no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Being killed in John's context of the 5th Seal is being redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

But John also gave the timing that the wheat of Matthew 13 are part of the Millennial Kingdom on earth, not the kingdom of God in Heaven. Just as Jesus declared the wheat was gathered after the Second Coming. The wheat was personally sown and chosen by Jesus.

 

[tailgator]

How can they be the kingdom of heaven, when they were not the church raptured at the Second Coming?

Why would the church still be on the earth after the Second Coming?

The kingdom of heaven is in heaven. That kingdom of heaven is where the majority of the church has been for 1994 years.

The wheat is the final harvest for life on earth during the Millennium. People cannot be on earth and in heaven at the same time.

The 5th Seal should explain the difference between the church and the wheat:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them (the church) ; and it was said unto them (the church) , that they (the church) should rest yet for a little season, until their (the church) fellowservants (the wheat) also and their (the church) brethren (the sheep), that should be killed as they (the church) were, should be fulfilled."

The church is not on the earth while the sheep and wheat are killed/redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The church is waiting in heaven until the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom are gathered, the wheat and the sheep.

The kingdom of heaven was established when Daniel was given his earthly ministry as one of the prophets. That is what God told Nebuchadnezzar.

At the Cross, the kingdom of heaven was made physically available, when Jesus was the physical Lamb of God for the redemption of mankind. That is why those in Abraham's bosom were allowed a physical resurrection, to enter heaven. Why would you call the Gospel strange? It is the means whereby one receives eternal life. Eternal life is granted when one is no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Being killed in John's context of the 5th Seal is being redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

But John also gave the timing that the wheat of Matthew 13 are part of the Millennial Kingdom on earth, not the kingdom of God in Heaven. Just as Jesus declared the wheat was gathered after the Second Coming. The wheat was personally sown and chosen by Jesus.

You ask ,how can the wheat be the kingdom of heaven.If you would listen instead of talking ,you might be able to hear.Jesus is teaching about the kingdom of heaven when talking about the wheat.


Mathew 13

The kingdom of heaven

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



You don't understand Jesus when he speaks in parables.Repent of your sins and convert ,so that you may understand his parables about the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

The kingdom of the Father can only take place once Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

If the kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of the Father then how do you explain Matthew 11:12?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

How can that be the case? The heavenly kingdom of God was already established in Daniel 2 in Daniel's lifetime.

The OT redeemed at the Cross were presented to God into that heavenly kingdom when they physically ascended on Sunday morning after Jesus told Mary that He was about to ascend to God. John 10:17

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

These were the firstfruits of that Kingdom of heaven presented because of the Cross, and made alive in Christ per 1 Corinthians 15.

The Kingdom of heaven has been ongoing for 2500 years. Your verse will happen over a thousand years from now.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The end is after Jesus has had an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. That earthly kingdom is after the Second Coming, and after the final harvest of Matthew 13. The removal of all things offensive is concerning the preparation for the Kingdom of Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9.

The Kingdom of heaven is like the one Jesus will Himself reign over on the earth. Or in other words: the future earthly Kingdom will be free of sin and death like the heavenly kingdom of God, that started 500 years prior to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

There is nothing to offend existing in heaven, but the church on earth has impersonators. They are called wolves in sheep's clothing. They would include the scribes and Pharasees in the first century who were preventing the lost from coming to the knowledge of the heavenly kingdom.

They were the ones Jesus described in parables as unjust stewards leading people astray, killing the prophets, and eventually killing even the Son of the heavenly Father.

So any attack, even by humans against God's will being done on the earth is attacking the kingdom of God. Not that they can attack heaven, but they can prevent people from coming to the saving knowledge of the Gospel, including changing the terms of the OT Covenant for human gain, instead of obedience to God. Today it would be any individual who changes the Gospel into something the Gospel is not.

 

[Timtofly]

You ask ,how can the wheat be the kingdom of heaven.If you would listen instead of talking ,you might be able to hear.Jesus is teaching about the kingdom of heaven when talking about the wheat.


Mathew 13

The kingdom of heaven

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



You don't understand Jesus when he speaks in parables.Repent of your sins and convert ,so that you may understand his parables about the kingdom of heaven.

You don't understand that Jesus explained this parable.

Why are you going against what Jesus said, and giving us your own human opinion?

Of course what happens on earth is like the kingdom in heaven. Jesus does the will of the Father, not His own path separate from God.

Why do you deny Jesus is on the earth after the Second Coming? What is the Second Coming for, if not to bring Jesus to the earth to rule over His kinsmen from His glorious throne in Jerusalem?

The final harvest is the period you all call the "tribulation". The Second Coming is pre the final harvest, not post the final harvest. Jesus is literally on the earth with His angels when the seed is being sown, personally by Him, and the wheat is being gathered by the angels. The church is not on the earth, while Jesus is setting up His earthly throne on the earth.

 

[tailgator]

You don't understand that Jesus explained this parable.

Why are you going against what Jesus said, and giving us your own human opinion?

Of course what happens on earth is like the kingdom in heaven. Jesus does the will of the Father, not His own path separate from God.

Why do you deny Jesus is on the earth after the Second Coming? What is the Second Coming for, if not to bring Jesus to the earth to rule over His kinsmen from His glorious throne in Jerusalem?

The final harvest is the period you all call the "tribulation". The Second Coming is pre the final harvest, not post the final harvest. Jesus is literally on the earth with His angels when the seed is being sown, personally by Him, and the wheat is being gathered by the angels. The church is not on the earth, while Jesus is setting up His earthly throne on the earth.

False

The wheat being gathered into the barn is the kingdom.of heaven.


You was wrong.

Mathew 13

The kingdom of heaven

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[grafted branch]

How can that be the case? The heavenly kingdom of God was already established in Daniel 2 in Daniel's lifetime.

The OT redeemed at the Cross were presented to God into that heavenly kingdom when they physically ascended on Sunday morning after Jesus told Mary that He was about to ascend to God. John 10:17

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

These were the firstfruits of that Kingdom of heaven presented because of the Cross, and made alive in Christ per 1 Corinthians 15.

The Kingdom of heaven has been ongoing for 2500 years. Your verse will happen over a thousand years from now.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The end is after Jesus has had an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. That earthly kingdom is after the Second Coming, and after the final harvest of Matthew 13. The removal of all things offensive is concerning the preparation for the Kingdom of Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9.

The Kingdom of heaven is like the one Jesus will Himself reign over on the earth. Or in other words: the future earthly Kingdom will be free of sin and death like the heavenly kingdom of God, that started 500 years prior to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

There is nothing to offend existing in heaven, but the church on earth has impersonators. They are called wolves in sheep's clothing. They would include the scribes and Pharasees in the first century who were preventing the lost from coming to the knowledge of the heavenly kingdom.

They were the ones Jesus described in parables as unjust stewards leading people astray, killing the prophets, and eventually killing even the Son of the heavenly Father.

So any attack, even by humans against God's will being done on the earth is attacking the kingdom of God. Not that they can attack heaven, but they can prevent people from coming to the saving knowledge of the Gospel, including changing the terms of the OT Covenant for human gain, instead of obedience to God. Today it would be any individual who changes the Gospel into something the Gospel is not.

I’m in agreement with you on this, I personally don’t think the kingdom of heaven = the kingdom after it is delivered to the Father.

Ewq1938 was the one who made that claim, I was asking how Matthew 11:12 could be interpreted if that was the case. I don’t think he gave a very convincing answer but if you want to debate him over that then go ahead, he is the one putting forth that idea.

 

[Timtofly]

False

The wheat being gathered into the barn is the kingdom.of heaven.


You was wrong.

Mathew 13

The kingdom of heaven

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels,

The Second Coming of the Son of man is the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. This parable only applies to the time of Jacob's trouble, you all call the Tribulation.

 

[tailgator]

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels,

The Second Coming of the Son of man is the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. This parable only applies to the time of Jacob's trouble, you all call the Tribulation.

False.

The wheat being gathered into the barn are the first fruits of the harvest They are of the kingdom of heaven as Jesus pointed out in the parable..The regular harvest comes after the millinium

 

[Timtofly]

False.

The wheat being gathered into the barn are the first fruits of the harvest They are of the kingdom of heaven as Jesus pointed out in the parable..The regular harvest comes after the millinium

What "regular harvest"? The entire Millennium where no one dies is the harvest. They keep on living for eternity.

A harvest is being removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The wheat are the parents of an ongoing wheat harvest. They do not give birth to Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They have left death and entered life at the time of the final harvest.


This is not a group of dead people trying to please God for a thousand years. This is the first generation of incorruptible humans who keep on multiplying across the earth. This is the restoration out of sin and death into life everlasting. They are not taken to heaven, unless Satan is granted 42 months, then they return on white horses to set up the restoration of the nations across the earth. Otherwise they start the Millennial Kingdom as soon as the 7th Trumpet sounds. They rule over their offspring as kings and priests, like Adam and Eve would have done in the Garden had Adam not disobeyed God.

This would be the seen physical kingdom of heaven on earth, under the Kingdom of Jesus. But it is not the church, that heavenly kingdom who will not leave heaven until after this creation is over and the next creation begins, as the 1200 square mile city, the New Jerusalem.

The wheat are all the nations other than Israel, people directly chosen by Jesus after the Second Coming out of all the nations left after the church is removed and glorified. Israel is represented by the sheep in Matthew 25. The Gentiles are the wheat gathered during the 7 Thunders. The sheep are Israel gathered during the first 6 Trumpets. The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest is over. Time is up for Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[ewq1938]

I’m in agreement with you on this, I personally don’t think the kingdom of heaven = the kingdom after it is delivered to the Father.

When scripture says something like "the kingdom of heaven is likened to" and gives an example, the KoH is not the state of things at first but is the end result.

In scripture the KoH has no sinners or offenders.

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The KoH is a future kingdom that sinners and the unsaved shall not be able to enter.

 

[tailgator]

What "regular harvest"? The entire Millennium where no one dies is the harvest. They keep on living for eternity.

A harvest is being removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The wheat are the parents of an ongoing wheat harvest. They do not give birth to Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They have left death and entered life at the time of the final harvest.


This is not a group of dead people trying to please God for a thousand years. This is the first generation of incorruptible humans who keep on multiplying across the earth. This is the restoration out of sin and death into life everlasting. They are not taken to heaven, unless Satan is granted 42 months, then they return on white horses to set up the restoration of the nations across the earth. Otherwise they start the Millennial Kingdom as soon as the 7th Trumpet sounds. They rule over their offspring as kings and priests, like Adam and Eve would have done in the Garden had Adam not disobeyed God.

This would be the seen physical kingdom of heaven on earth, under the Kingdom of Jesus. But it is not the church, that heavenly kingdom who will not leave heaven until after this creation is over and the next creation begins, as the 1200 square mile city, the New Jerusalem.

The wheat are all the nations other than Israel, people directly chosen by Jesus after the Second Coming out of all the nations left after the church is removed and glorified. Israel is represented by the sheep in Matthew 25. The Gentiles are the wheat gathered during the 7 Thunders. The sheep are Israel gathered during the first 6 Trumpets. The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest is over. Time is up for Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You don't know anything about harvest time?

The first fruits are the first fruits of the harvest.They are gathered by the harvesters(angels) and presented the the high priest(Yeshua)at Jerusalem.

This is the wheat being gathered into the barn at Christs coming.The regular harvest comes after the first fruits.Not at the same time.


Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The rest of the dead which are not gathered with the first fruits are gathered after the 1000 years are finished.As it is written in revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"





Jesus refered to the wheat as his elect in the Olivet discourse.