Offenders in the kingdom

[tailgator]

That would be the kingdom of heaven.

You believe the kingdom under heaven is the kingdom of heaven.

Ok ,where under heaven is it located?

Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[tailgator]

How can you be pre-mil, if you claim Matthew 13 was about the first century? The final harvest are those who inhabit the Millennial Kingdom on the earth.

Jesus will sow the wheat after the Second Coming. Only those alive on the earth after the Second Coming can be considered either wheat or tares. This is not about the church, as the church was removed prior to the wheat and tares being sown.

You seem to be in agreement with preterist and full preterist that this harvest only pertained to those Jews living in the first century. This is not an ongoing sowing and reaping. This is only involving one generation or two at the most. Seeds do not have multiple generations much less dozens of generations. Each seed dies and produces only one result, even in a parable.

This is not even about Adam's offspring being born as sinners generation after generation. This is about Jesus changing individuals by personally speaking and conversing with these people. And this is taking place while Satan is personally lobbying and deceiving individuals in opposition to Jesus.

So you believe the wheat that are the children of the kingdom of heaven is not the church that is gathered at Christs coming.

Strange gospel you are preaching.

 

[grafted branch]

In my view the only way the tares could be involving the millennial reign is if Amil is the correct position. It is paralleling their proposed millennial reign, not Premils proposed millennial reign. The sowing only pertains to this age and not the next age as well.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


Premils typically take this to mean the last day of this present age just like Amils typically do. Then they(Premils) take the millennium to mean it follows the last day of this age. IOW, once the millennium begins, everything pertaining to Matthew 13:39-41 is already in the past and entirely fulfilled.

We have to keep in mind the subject is His kingdom and that not everyone is in His kingdom. Atheists certainly aren't, nor are unbelieving Jews, as a few examples. Keeping in mind, if Premil is true there have to be some unsaved still remaining alive on the planet after Jesus returns if there is a rebellion after the millennium. But they would be living outside of the now literally materialized kingdom not within it. Meaning once Jesus returns. Surely the kingdom will be one, one can behold with the naked eye at that point, thus literally materialized.

I think the problem is once some Premils, the OSAS Premils, are confronted with the kingdom containing offenders they tend to want to place parts the parable of the tares into the millennium, they try to say the kingdom (millennial kingdom) hasn’t been established yet as a reason for the offenders getting into it.

I will admit a NOSAS view can make this all work for Premil but there still could be something else that hasn’t been brought up yet that needs to be considered.

 

[quietthinker]

I think the problem is once some Premils, the OSAS Premils, are confronted with the kingdom containing offenders they tend to want to place parts the parable of the tares into the millennium, they try to say the kingdom (millennial kingdom) hasn’t been established yet as a reason for the offenders getting into it.

I will admit a NOSAS view can make this all work for Premil but there still could be something else that hasn’t been brought up yet that needs to be considered.

Being caught up in convoluted theology (but not recognised) becomes the spearhead of confusion....thus endlessly argued over.....ultimately missing the intent of scripture and the point!

 

[grafted branch]

You believe the kingdom under heaven is the kingdom of heaven.

Ok ,where under heaven is it located?

Have you come to the heavenly Jerusalem? Are you in heaven or are you under heaven?

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[grafted branch]

Being caught up in convoluted theology (but not recognised) becomes the spearhead of confusion....thus endlessly argued over.....ultimately missing the intent of scripture and the point!

Well that could be but there is a solution that makes sense as to why the offenders are in the kingdom, and agrees with John 3:5 that only born again can enter the kingdom.

 

[tailgator]

Have you come to the heavenly Jerusalem? Are you in heaven or are you under heaven?

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

I'm sitting in a chair on planet earth

Mathew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.


Do you believe the Pharisees sat at the right hand of God in heaven or did they live in Jerusalem Israel?

 

[tailgator]

Have you come to the heavenly Jerusalem? Are you in heaven or are you under heaven?

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

What year did you say the kingdom of this world became Jesus's?

 

[quietthinker]

Well that could be but there is a solution that makes sense as to why the offenders are in the kingdom, and agrees with John 3:5 that only born again can enter the kingdom.

The misapplication of intent is patently evident in Orthodox Jews where Deuteronomy 6:7-9 is subverted by its practitioners.

'These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates...'

A similar misapplication is practised by Christians with their never-ending theological propositions ....ultimately becoming distortions

 

[grafted branch]

The misapplication of intent is patently evident in Orthodox Jews where Deuteronomy 6:7-9 is subverted by its practitioners.

'These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates...'

A similar misapplication is practised by Christians with their never-ending theological propositions ....ultimately becoming distortions

I don’t know what your eschatological view is but trying to claim the offenders are not in the kingdom is a tough position to defend.

A preterist view can give us an explanation that makes sense. A Premil view where salvation can be lost can also make sense. If you choose to abandon a view that can make sense for an idea that creates a method of interpretation that can actually create convoluted theology then go ahead.

 

[grafted branch]

Mathew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.


Do you believe the Pharisees sat at the right hand of God in heaven or did they live in Jerusalem Israel?

The Pharisees were on earth. Tell me, when was the kingdom taken from them? Are you still waiting for that to be fulfilled?

What year did you say the kingdom of this world became Jesus's?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[quietthinker]

I don’t know what your eschatological view is but trying to claim the offenders are not in the kingdom is a tough position to defend.

A preterist view can give us an explanation that makes sense. A Premil view where salvation can be lost can also make sense. If you choose to abandon a view that can make sense for an idea that creates a method of interpretation that can actually create convoluted theology then go ahead.

Understand this:
2 Corinthians 1:20 'For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.'

Not understand it or misunderstand it will mean one is cut loose to pursue any 'aberration' one can imagine.....particularly religious.

 

[tailgator]

The Pharisees were on earth. Tell me, when was the kingdom taken from them? Are you still waiting for that to be fulfilled?


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

You trying to say the Pharisees had power in heaven at the right hand of God to begin with?
Hahaha.

What they had taken from them was Jerusalem in 70 AD..That's all they ever had to begin with

 

[grafted branch]

You trying to say the Pharisees had power in heaven at the right hand of God to begin with?
Hahaha.

What they had taken from them was Jerusalem in 70 AD..That's all they ever had to begin with

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

I’m saying they had the power to interpret the Law and imposed its burden.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

How do you think it was possible for the scribes and Pharisees to prevent people from entering the kingdom?

 

[tailgator]

Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

I’m saying they had the power to interpret the Law and imposed its burden.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

How do you think it was possible for the scribes and Pharisees to prevent people from entering the kingdom?

The same way they prevent Jews from entering the kingdom of heaven today.,By deceiving them into believing Jesus is a false prophet

That is what they teach.It is still being taught to Jews in the land of Israel .At least since 1948.

But the Pharisees never ascended into heaven. They lived in a kingdom in the middle east.The same kingdom that they were cast out of in 70 ad.

 

[tailgator]

Jacob was no dummy,he is buried within the kingdom of heaven 17 miles from the camp of the saints in Jerusalem.

Genesis 47:29-30
When the time drew near for Israel to die, he called for his son Joseph and said to him, “If I have found favor in your eyes, put your hand under my thigh and promise that you will show me kindness and faithfulness. Do not bury me in Egypt,
but when I rest with my fathers, carry me out of Egypt and bury me where they are buried.” “I will do as you say,” he said.


Revelation 20
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.



Jacob made sure he would be buried in the kingdom of heaven.Exactly where he wanted to be.

 

[Davidpt]

Well that could be but there is a solution that makes sense as to why the offenders are in the kingdom, and agrees with John 3:5 that only born again can enter the kingdom.

IMO, NOSAS certainly doesn't contradict that. That has to be the solution then.

Think of it like this. If the Bible is using real world imagery to make a point, shouldn't we first be considering what it means in a real world sense then applying it in that same manner per when it is used in the Bible?

An example of what I'm trying to get at here.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

When that happens in the real world are goats meaning chickens, ducks, turtles, horses, cows, so on and so on? Or is it simply meaning only goats? The latter of course. This at least tells us that the goats are meaning someone specific. Therefore, to then insist the goats are meaning all of the unsaved lost, including atheists, witches, unbelieving Jews, satanists, etc, is to then contradict what goats mean in a real world sense per a context like this, that a shepherd dividing his sheep from the goats means exactly that, and not this instead---a shepherd dividing his sheep from the cows, or from the horses, or from the roosters, etc.

We have to apply it in the same manner when we are interpreting the sheep and goats judgment, that in the real world goats don't mean chickens, cows, etc, they mean goats, a very specific animal. But if we have the goats meaning all of the unsaved lost rather than a specific group, we are not applying this the same way it is being applied in a real world sense.

It's rather simple then, context determines how to interpret something. Leading up to the sheep and goats judgment which began towards the end of ch 24 and continues in ch 25, the subject has been profitable and unprofitable servants of Christ while He was away during His ascension, and what happens once He returns. And since we are looking for a specific type of person here in regards to who the goats are meaning, it can't get any clearer that the goats are obviously meaning unprofitable servants of Christ rather than all the unsaved lost in general. Now we have this part--and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats--agreeing with how that would be being applied in a real world sense.

After all, it makes zero sense to use real world imagery to make a point, then contradict that point by interpreting something in a such a manner that it is disagreeing with what it would mean and look like in a real world sense, rather than agreeing.

 

[grafted branch]

The same way they prevent Jews from entering the kingdom of heaven today.,By deceiving them into believing Jesus is a false prophet

That is what they teach.It is still being taught to Jews in the land of Israel .At least since 1948.

But the Pharisees never ascended into heaven. They lived in a kingdom in the middle east.The same kingdom that they were cast out of in 70 ad.

Moses’ seat was the authority the first century Jews had. Matthew 28:18 says all power was given to Jesus. That would include the authority of Moses’ seat.

Regardless of what the Jews teach today, they don’t have the authority that the first century Jews had.

 

[tailgator]

Moses’ seat was the authority the first century Jews had. Matthew 28:18 says all power was given to Jesus. That would include the authority of Moses’ seat.

Regardless of what the Jews teach today, they don’t have the authority that the first century Jews had.

Sure the descendents of the Pharisees have every bit of authority today as they did 2000 years ago .

They sit in the synagogue of Satan(Knesset) making laws everyday .I'm expecting them to pass a law next year so that no one In Israel will be able to buy or sell without a mark.

 

[grafted branch]

IMO, NOSAS certainly doesn't contradict that. That has to be the solution then.

Think of it like this. If the Bible is using real world imagery to make a point, shouldn't we first be considering what it means in a real world sense then applying it in that same manner per when it is used in the Bible?

An example of what I'm trying to get at here.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

When that happens in the real world are goats meaning chickens, ducks, turtles, horses, cows, so on and so on? Or is it simply meaning only goats? The latter of course. This at least tells us that the goats are meaning someone specific. Therefore, to then insist the goats are meaning all of the unsaved lost, including atheists, witches, unbelieving Jews, satanists, etc, is to then contradict what goats mean in a real world sense per a context like this, that a shepherd dividing his sheep from the goats means exactly that, and not this instead---a shepherd dividing his sheep from the cows, or from the horses, or from the roosters, etc.

We have to apply it in the same manner when we are interpreting the sheep and goats judgment, that in the real world goats don't mean chickens, cows, etc, they mean goats, a very specific animal. But if we have the goats meaning all of the unsaved lost rather than a specific group, we are not applying this the same way it is being applied in a real world sense.

It's rather simple then, context determines how to interpret something. Leading up to the sheep and goats judgment which began towards the end of ch 24 and continues in ch 25, the subject has been profitable and unprofitable servants of Christ while He was away during His ascension, and what happens once He returns. And since we are looking for a specific type of person here in regards to who the goats are meaning, it can't get any clearer that the goats are obviously meaning unprofitable servants of Christ rather than all the unsaved lost in general. Now we have this part--and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats--agreeing with how that would be being applied in a real world sense.

After all, it makes zero sense to use real world imagery to make a point, then contradict that point by interpreting something in a such a manner that it is disagreeing with what it would mean and look like in a real world sense, rather than agreeing.

I agree, I personally don’t believe in NOSAS, and I have a solution that works for my beliefs. I will give you this, your NOSAS view and your Premil view does work.

I’m not sure why some people here will compromise their hermeneutics just to try to prove or disprove a point, it’s not worth it. I don’t want to name this person but you are very familiar with him, he debated with me and finally stated that there can be “special cases” where a word is only interpreted a certain way one time. I went back through his posts and pointed out numerous times where he argued the exact opposite. He argued multiple time with others that there has to be corroboration.

Anyway, I do agree you do have consistency with NOSAS and your view on this topic.