"Not my God. Not my Jesus."
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
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There is one unsurmountable difference between the Christian God and the others.
The problem man has, is that he is not in the state that God created him ie he sins. Jesus came to correct that so that man is once more in the state that God created him ie he does not sin. That is to say, he is returned back to his Adamic state before Adam fell. Not positionally but actually.
This is what the early Christians called Theosis which has fallen from popularity because everything in this fallen world has degenerated.
No other religion does this. God is not a narcissist wanting worship only with lip service to a 'new creation'.
The problem man has, is that he is not in the state that God created him ie he sins. Jesus came to correct that so that man is once more in the state that God created him ie he does not sin. That is to say, he is returned back to his Adamic state before Adam fell. Not positionally but actually.
This is what the early Christians called Theosis which has fallen from popularity because everything in this fallen world has degenerated.
No other religion does this. God is not a narcissist wanting worship only with lip service to a 'new creation'.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since you prefer an open board…..what you have shared is a rather twisted version of what we believe, I‘m afraid that you either heard it wrong because you distorted it in your own mind….or you genuinely misunderstood what was said. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Let me quote you so there is no misunderstanding now…..
marks said:
1) We do not deny that there was a “Jesus, Son of God”…..what we deny is “Jesus, God the son”.…read it carefully. This is the doctrine invented by an apostate church…..it has no scriptural support in any clear statement.….otherwise this argument would have been settled long ago, and yet after almost 2000 years, it still rages.
2) There was no “fictional character portrayed by Michael the Archangel”…who is called “the great Prince who stands on behalf of Jehovah’s people”. (Daniel 12:1-4) This “Prince” would have kingdom rulership bestowed on him as Isaiah’s prophesy shows. (Isa 9:6-7)
It is because we see Jesus as “the son of God“, that there is no impediment to seeing him in the various roles that he has been given in the service of his God and Father.
Acts 4:27 describes Jesus as “God’s holy servant”….how is God his own servant?
Each role sees Jesus given a new name.
We see Jesus himself mentioning these…..
Phil 2:8-9….
”More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name”.
If the beliefs of Christendom are true, then this is a ridiculous statement. Can God exalt himself to a superior position? Could he ever need to?
No one can be given a name that is higher than the one God already has. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)In Revelation he again speaks of his new name…one that is not yet revealed.
Rev 3:12…”The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.” (ESV)
Written at the end of the first century, long after his ascension to heaven, Jesus still calls his Father “my God”…..and speaks of his “new name”. The Father has only one name but many titles. The son has a few different names, depending upon the role he has been assigned….given to him by his Father.Add to that the fact that God had to give his resurrected son ”authority over all things in heaven and on earth” (Matt 28:18) and your definition of God comes up as unsupported by any clear statements of scripture. How does God need to give himself all authority, when he already has it?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
marks said:
Hebrews 1:3-4 tells us that the son is “…the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.” (ESV) There is that name again…..
So, if you believe what Christendom accepts as truth, this is another nonsensical statement.
How does God inherit a name more excellent that the angels?
Colossians 1:15-16…
”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (ESV)
If Jesus is “the image of his invisible” Father how is that possible? He can only resemble him in character and personality. And if he is the firstborn of “all creation” then that makes him part of that creation.
The other problem you have then, is that an immortal God cannot die. If Jesus did not really die, then the ransom was not paid, and we are still in our sins, unforgiven.
In light of all that the Bible says about the God served by Israel, he is the “one God” (Deut 6:4) Jesus served whilst he was on earth. Your god prays to himself, sends angels to minister to himself, can have a different will to his other self, knows things his other self does not…..is given names and exalted above himself is his own high priest and can die even though he is immortal.
So as one who studied all the difficulties very carefully, I discarded all of Christendom’s doctrines as Roman Catholic nonsense…..and decided that I would serve the same God that Jesus did.
Now you know…..
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Saw a great answer recently in the form of a little Christian girl. When asked to convert, she said she would if anyone can show her where in the Koran that it says Allah loves her.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Word games!
They would most certainly be lying. The question, do you have an X is a general question. You cannot deny having an X on the grounds of inserting a limiting qualifier. I don't have an electronic device on the grounds that it is not new, white, large, borrowed, etc. Foolishness!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Pancho, I'm disappointed you opened another JW bashing thread. I know that was not your intent. Bashers gonna bash.
I like your posts, my sister, and keep notes with them.
However, you reference Isaiah 9:6 as a prophecy of Yeshua, but evidence shows that it does not necessarily refer to the Son of God.
Since I believe that Yeshua was the "only begotten Son," I can't see that He was the transfigured Archangel. I believe that His physical birth is real and fulfilled prophecy in other parts of Isaiah.
I am likewise committed to show that we should not accept two different things as being the same. That is what would be absurd to me. You believe all worship the same God, I do not.
So I'd ask you . . . Based on what, do you believe this? What is your objective evidence? What is the divine revelation? What do you base your belief on?
I would answer, I base my belief on the statements made in the Bible, which I believe to be God's revelation to man.
I would reply that walking in truth allows me to love others in truth, not overlooking a falsehood.
If someone has cancer, and is dying, would you say to them, No, that's not cancer, it's not deadly, we all share the same health? Is that love? I don't think so. I think ignoring the truth leads us to a pretend love.
I do this daily. How would that be a mystery? But then I'd have to say one must be a Christian, a true Christian, to know this love for others.
It's not up to me to judge you. And "building a better world" is good, but it's not my first priority. Building a better world makes people more comfortable on their way to condemnation. I think it's better to share the truth, and though it may ruffle some feathers, is actually the way to rescue them.
Leading someone to Christ - the real Christ - will do infinitely more for someone then given them a better job, or a better home, or lower taxes.
Again, we are to walk in truth. That is a very Biblical concept.
Much love!
I will let Paul answer this for me:
Galatians 1:3-9 KJV
3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4) Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5) To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Jesus can answer this one.
Matthew 16:16-17 KJV
16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
He affirmed the one correct answer.
When you consider some preach another Jesus, and another gospel which is not gospel, it seems to me that making sure the spirit you know is the true God is more important than whether you can add or subtract numbers.
Much love!
Which hair are we splitting here? I'd need a more specific question to give a reasoned answer.
At the end of the day, it comes down to, who is Jesus? And what is required to reconcile us to God. There is only one way we are reconciled to God, and there is only one way we receive that reconciliation. The answer to both is in Jesus Christ, and no one else.
Much love!
What's not a primary difference?
Let's apply this to something else. A man comes to your door and demands you come with him. If he is a lawfully appointed officer of the law, conducting lawful business, and has the valid authority to compel your presence, then to go with him is to be obedient to the law. But if he is an impersonator, going with him is being kidnapped under false pretence.
Trusting in someone who is true, versus trusting in someone who is false, I maintain this is a significant difference which one ignores at their own peril.
I don't see that being true, according to the statements in the Bible.
There is one true God, there are many false gods, and false gods masquerade as true. This is the Bible's teaching, not mine. Satan comes as an angel of light. Don't believe lies.
Many claim many things. The Bible is clear.
Much love!
Do you or do you not claim that Jesus was a personna presented by Michael? And that afterword, Michael returned to his actual identity?
Do I misunderstand this?
Much love!
Do you?
Jesus claims exclusivity.
John 10:7-15 KJV
7) Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8) All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12) But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13) The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 14:6 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Much love!
Your starting point is to take Christians away from their orthodoxy into your heterodoxy. You've come onto a Christian forum with the express purpose of pulling Christians away from the one true faith.
Acts 20:27-30 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Be warned.
I'm saying these things to you because I love you, and I want you to come to the true faith in the real Jesus Christ.
Much love!
Hi Wrangler and @Spyder
In the Quran, God sets for Himself a Rule: "My Mercy will always win over my wrath". To me, this is one of the greatest and most moving things I have read.
The God's attribute more mentioned in the Holy Quran is Merciful. This is how Allah shows his love to every creature, including that little girl, you and me.
Hi Marks
I've presented first four arguments, and then a fifth one.
But remember, I am not saying that our beliefs or discourses about God or Jesus are the same.
I am saying that my God and your God is the same and only God and that my Jesus and your Jesus is the same and only Jesus.
Remember as well: our particular views do not define God or Jesus. They are who they are, independently of our limited understanding.
If you demand that the belief of your neighbor complies 100% with your belief, in order to consider his God your God, then you will end up realizing that there would be billions of gods... one corresponding to the particular view of each believer.
However, if you realize that if two people are praying to the Being they believe to be the Only Creator and Sustainer of their lives, the All-Merciful, the All-Wise, the All-Powerful, then you will realize that, since there cannot be more than one Being who has this attributes, they must be praying to the same Being.
Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus humbled Himself to be born a man, to take the form of a servant, to become obedient.
John 17:4-5 KJV
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
One hardly need to comment on these passages, they are very plain.
Philippians 2:9-11 KJV
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Isaiah 45:22-24 KJV
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Much love!
Dear ElieG12, @Spyder, @TheHC and @Aunty Jane
If Moloch asks you to sacrifice your child, then Moloch is not God.
The false god leads you to evil. That's why idolatry is wrong.
If Moloch gave you the very same commandments that YHWH gives to you. If Moloch claimed the be One, Creator, Sustainer, All Merciful, All Wise, your Saviour, and led you to all good, then Moloch would be YHWH, without a doubt.
We have biblical and historical support for this in the story of Cyrus from Persia, a worshipper of Mazda, Ahura Mazda, which is our God.
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