This thread is for you to rehearse apologetics regarding the idea that is getting somewhat popular in the Internet, that Allah is not the God who Jews and Christians worship, and that the Jesus that Jehovah Witnesses follow as their Savior is not the Jesus that Christianity follows as their Savior.
A valid place to start a discussion on this subject…..because there is but one truth based on whose interpretation of “God” is fact, and which one of many is based on assumptions or implications or suggestions made in Scripture. A good knowledge of original language words and phraseology is helpful in determining whether any translation is valid or is deliberately mistranslated due to bias.
Assumptions are not facts, but as we know, science bases it’s evolutionary theory purely on assumption and suggestions, yet most of the scientific community accept it as indisputable fact. This is an indication that truth is not discernible just by those with intelligent minds. These can equally be “blinded”. (2 Cor 4:4)
There are no
facts supporting evolution, but many supporting intelligent design…..but it doesn’t sway the unbelievers at all, any more than evidence will sway those who believe what is not true about God. They will stick to what they want to believe. Only God can know the condition of the heart. (John 6:44; 65)
So the next valid question is……”can God exist as different representations to different people depending on what faith they follow?“ Is a person’s faith a matter of geography, or indoctrination from childhood….or is it a personal choice based on their own research? Can people who profess the same faith have differences and still be acceptable to the God they claim to worship? (1 Cor 1:10) How many truths did Jesus teach?
Because Yahweh is a “God of order” there has to be one central definition of “God” provided by God himself….not interpretations of him based on what humans want him to be. So many have created a god who is made in their image, and their worship of that god is therefore invalid. He has taken the place of the true God. ..(John 17:3)….and the first Commandment is broken. (Ex 20:3)
Does God provide clear statements about who he is, and always has been? Yes he does.
In regard to Allah, this thread is NOT to point out to the differences we all know between Islam and Judaism or Christianism, but to discuss why these differences should/should not make us consider Allah as "another God".
Morphing the God of Israel into the same god worshipped in different faiths might sound appealing but it is an impossible task for the genuine truth seeker. We would have to ignore so much of what the Bible says, which opens up another argument……how many holy books did God provide?
Do we all uniformly believe what Jesus said about his Father? Was Yahweh the God of Israel exclusively, based on his covenant with Abraham? If so why would God want to branch out and accept those ‘branches’ who each believe different things about him and the savior he sent to rescue them.
There is only one truth, Pancho…..not many versions of it.
In regard to the JW, this thread is NOT to argue in favor or against the deity of Jesus, since such topic is not permitted by the rules of the Forum. The point is to discuss why, regardless of the opinion JW and Christians have about His metaphysical nature/origin, such Jesus should / should not be considered "another Jesus".
There was one man…..called Jesus who did not exist until his human birth. He did not become the “Christ” until his baptism and anointing with God’s spirit. The man Jesus died and was resurrected back to where he was before his earthly mission was successfully accomplished.
The spirit being who was always at his Father’s right hand in glory, as God’s “only begotten son” (his “firstborn” Col 1:15) became the man Jesus, who willingly offered his life in exchange for ours. That fundamental truth is irrefutable. Is that truth held by all? Or is this where it starts to unravel?
Another truth emerges…..yet there is but one Jesus…..but whose version of him is correct? God has only one version of the son who was “the beginning of God’s creation“. (Rev 3:14) It was the early church who changed the identity of the Jewish God into one who more closely resembled the pagan gods of the nations.
As a starting point, my thesis is that Allah is the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians, and Jesus is the same Jesus followed by JW and the rest of Christians. What is different is the discourse these groups have about God or Jesus, in aspects that are not essential for worship or salvation.
It’s not that simple Pancho. We have a malicious deceiver intent on taking as many victims down into oblivion with him as he can. The question is….will we be among them, deceived to the last moment, only to find that our faith was a twisted version of one of the devil’s many counterfeits? (Matt 7:21-23)
How do we know if something is a counterfeit? Do we have to study every counterfeit to know?
All we have to do is study the original, and then the counterfeit becomes obvious.
A Jehovah Witness could find no problem, I guess, in accepting that Allah does not have a literal son, and that the term "son" (as well as the term "father") is just a human analogy.
Since it is obvious that God has no literal gender, and portrays himself as a Father figure and his relationship with his spirit creatures as his “sons”…..Why is Jesus alone identified as “THE Son of God” when it is clear that God has many “sons” in the spirit realm.? What is unique about this “son of God”? He is the first, “only begotten son”…..the only son who came into existence as the direct creation of his Father….all things thereafter came through the agency of this special son. (John 1: 2-3; Col 1:15-17)
So the Jesus of the Bible to us, is not the Jesus who is worshipped in Christendom. We do not worship the son because the son himself worships his God whom he taught is “Our Father who art in heaven”.. (John 20:17; Rev 3:12)
Believers are also called "God's children" but we understand this is an analogy. We are all creatures of God, not His "children". After all, God does not need a wife and is not involved in sexual reproduction, or in the transfer of genes to a next generation.
Yes, children can become such by creation, (begetting) or by adoption. A father in that sense is the one who has accepted a child who is not their own, one whose birth they did not cause.
Since Yahweh is the author of life, all life is from him ultimately.
There is a difference between a father and a Dad. Those called to heaven have a very intimate relationship with their Father and address him as “abba” or “papa”.
Although you may not share the theology of Jehovah Witnesses, I beg you to consider that, regarding the topic of begetting a son, Allah would be compatible with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, at least from a JW perspective.
I will have to disagree there Pancho. Our understanding of God “begetting” his son, must obviously take into consideration that “begetting” requires a ‘begetter’ who existed before them. Therefore Allah would not be an example of that god. Yahweh was not responsible for other prophets who were not mentioned in the only holy book that Christians accept.
Jesus was Jewish because it was prophesied that Messiah would be born from that nation. It was a legally binding contract that God made with Abraham…to produce the savior through his descendants. The Jews did not do much that was right in God’s eyes down through their history…..but he kept his part of the agreement and the savior he sent separated out from among those Jews the first members of his “chosen ones”.…those who will rule with Christ in his kingdom. (Rev 20:6)
Jesus is “the prophet like Moses” who was the last one mentioned in the Scriptures to have such a role.
If more prophets were to come, we would have been told to expect them.
What prophet could teach his disciples more than what Jesus did? Who needed to add anything, as Peter said to Jesus “you have sayings of everlasting life”.
The purpose of the thread is to establish whether you and the Christians follow, love and honor as Savior the same Jesus, regardless of theological differences.
As you can already see there are insurmountable differences…..based squarely on misrepresentation of our beliefs.…some already posted. But that is what happened in the first century also…..it will not be the shouting majority who are saved at the end of the day, but the hated and persecuted minority who are misrepresented to the world by those who themselves misrepresent God. (Matt 5:11-12; John 15:18-21)
“There is nothing new under the sun”, Solomon said……how true history has proven that to be…..the same kind of people fall for the same satanic lies because human nature does not change, and neither does the devil alter his tactics…..they work so well for him.
Those saved will be “few” for reasons that escape the majority….the “many“ who are traveling down the super highway to destruction will often hurl abuse on their way to a dead end. (Matt 7:13-14)
Which road are we on?
