Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
What is clear is that you choose to ignore the verses that don't fit your narrative.
Will being back in the land eternally save them because they are Jews? Is being back in the land through the providence of God a blessing or further curse for them? Those who believe in Premillennial Dispensationalism are preoccupied with what shall become of those Jews of the flesh, of nation of Israel, who, like you, still deny that Christ is God?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
A quick review will be helpful. Remember, that during Paul's time he argued against those who promoted the idea that Gentiles must convert to Judaism and live Jewishly in order to be saved. In that context, he argued that circumcision of the flesh is of some value, but what ultimately matters is circumcision of the heart.
Where did Paul get the idea of a circumcised heart?
Deuteronomy 30:5-6
The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.
The Jews are NOT saved because they are Jews. The Jews are NOT saved because they have returned to the Land. According to verse 5, God will bring them back into the Land, which he is doing right now. And after the Jewish Aliyah, he will circumcise their hearts. In other words, they are saved because God will choose to save them, which will involve giving them a circumcised heart.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.
Agree.
Disagree.
The FIRST to be RAISED UP….
ARE…
* Raised UP “BY” the Lord’s Command.
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
THAT “caught up” by a single word meaning…IS:
Greek…..Harpazo
Latin…….Rapier
English…Rapture
THAT applies to: human body’s who DIED Believing IN CHRIST Jesus..and the Living who “CONFESSED” (to the Lord) belief IN Jesus IS the CHRIST.
The FIRST “RESURRECTION” is God raising up humans’ body’s WHO died BELIEVING in God…(OT)….and in (NT - forward) in JESUS.
1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
* IN “CHRIST” .. CHRIST raises….RAPTURE.
* IN “JESUS”’ Lord GOD raises..1st resurrection.
Glory to God,
Taken
Agree.
Disagree.
The FIRST to be RAISED UP….
ARE…
* Raised UP “BY” the Lord’s Command.
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
THAT “caught up” by a single word meaning…IS:
Greek…..Harpazo
Latin…….Rapier
English…Rapture
THAT applies to: human body’s who DIED Believing IN CHRIST Jesus..and the Living who “CONFESSED” (to the Lord) belief IN Jesus IS the CHRIST.
The FIRST “RESURRECTION” is God raising up humans’ body’s WHO died BELIEVING in God…(OT)….and in (NT - forward) in JESUS.
1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
* IN “CHRIST” .. CHRIST raises….RAPTURE.
* IN “JESUS”’ Lord GOD raises..1st resurrection.
Glory to God,
Taken
Selectively quoting Scriptures without including more context is why those professing to be Christian Zionists can make the Bible say anything they choose. Every promise regarding physical land of Cannan was fulfilled exactly as God promised, the twelve tribes from Jacob inherited the land. But what you don't include with your selective Bible reading is how the promise to them for good would turn to a cursing for them when they turned away from God.
Deuteronomy 30:10-20 (KJV) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Joshua 23:2-16 (KJV) And Joshua called for all Israel, and for their elders, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers, and said unto them, I am old and stricken in age: And ye have seen all that the LORD your God hath done unto all these nations because of you; for the LORD your God is he that hath fought for you. Behold, I have divided unto you by lot these nations that remain, to be an inheritance for your tribes, from Jordan, with all the nations that I have cut off, even unto the great sea westward. And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you. Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left; That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them: But cleave unto the LORD your God, as ye have done unto this day. For the LORD hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day. One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you. Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.
It does, it just doesn't call it "true Israel," but the concept is unmistakable. Paul writes in Romans 9:6-8, that...
"not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring"
From that we can at least begin to know that the Israel of God, His Household, which consists of God's elect, is not made up who it outwardly seems to be. And this is just after Paul has said to them, in Romans 2:28-29...
"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."
And consider what Jesus says to a group of ethnic Jews in John 8:
"If God were your Father, you would love me... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
And John 10, again speaking to a group of ethnic Jews, who asked Him to tell them plainly if He was the Christ:
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."
It's not important what you think of me or what I say, CAZ. But what I'm relating to you is the Word of God.
Grace and peace to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yep. Whatever. Let's move on from this topic.
That's what I said.
I didn't say they weren't alike at all. Good grief. Communicating with you is very painful.
Sure, whatever. I don't really care what you want to call it. But, again, it does appear that Arminius himself believed in total depravity, at least in some sense, and I don't.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Give me a break. I can't take you seriously at all. You will go out of your way to twist any scripture to make it say what you want it to say and that's all we need to know about you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you have one single belief that's true. You seem to be wrong about literally everything.
Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I clearly do not do that, as everyone else but you can see. You clearly have no argument, as this post of yours proves.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Did I profess to being a Christian Zionist? I don't think I did.
Not every promise as I showed in my last post.
I know. As described in two chapters earlier, Israel has already suffered both the blessing and the curse. Deuteronomy 30 discusses Israel's return from Exile after both the blessings and the cursings were given to them.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay, I agree. According to that passage, "True Israel" are those descendants of Jacob whom God will circumcise their hearts.
I agree. Here again, Paul declares that the True is a Jew inwardly. And bear in mind that he is talking to those who name the name Jew and teach the law to others. A True Jew is a descendant of Jacob who is also inwardly Jewish -- inwardly circumcised.
I know PinSeeker. I very much appreciate your dedication to the truth. :)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
What else is new?
I didn't twist the passage. You did. And I proved it. You just don't like it, that's all.
Yes. So God will burn up those who are arrogantly evil even if they possess Hebrew DNA.
Their DNA won't save them.
I've answered one of my own questions for you.
Your turn.
Are "those who fear the Lord" those who are faithful and obedient to God and His Son?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I, of course, did not do that. How would you know if anyone twisted a passage or not when you don't trust any English Bible translations and you're not a Hebrew and Greek expert. You clearly just make up whatever you want to believe as you have no trustworthy source that you can rely on.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I responded to PinSeeker's post. The Romans 2 passage is speaking about the descendants of Jacob who are "true Jews" because they are circumcised. The Romans 9 passage is speaking about the descendants of Jacob who will become the True Israel when God circumcises their hearts.
Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Their race didn't save them then. It doesn't save them now.
There's only one chosen race. Peter identifies it:
1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Justin Martyr identifies it:
As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race.
Every recognized defender of the true faith for 17 centuries of the historic true Christian Church identified it likewise.
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