No Denomination named... Evidence Presented... You Decide

[ewq1938]

You didn't understand what I said in my post....
but no matter.

Some theology is in order here.

You believe that when Jesus was on earth,
the 2nd Person of the Trinity was missing in heaven?

It's OK if you want to believe that...

I definitely believe it.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Jesus eventually was found in heaven but he was not there at the time of these verses.

 

[PinSeeker]

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Jesus eventually was found in heaven but he was not there at the time of these verses.

Oh. My. Goodness. Wow. Well, I'm not sure whether to...

...or...

Wow.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Brakelite]

Brakelite,
While Jesus was on earth.....
The 2nd Person of the Trinity was still in heaven.

God cannot be separated.

However, Jesus the "God-Man" fully died on the cross.

Jesus is the WORD of God....the Logos....
Did God Father lose His logos while Jesus was on earth?
Of course not.

Just as God cannot be separated by His attributes, as stated in the law of Divine Simplicity,
He also cannot be separated as to His Persons.

I'm sorry, I had intended to respond to this not long after you posted it, but got distracted. You pose a very interesting conundrum, one that has been raised often over the centuries, and even given birth to sects who couldn't come to a biblical conclusion.
The problem is in how people understand the Godhead...trinity. You say that God cannot be divided. You are basing this statement on the creeds, not on the Bible. Of course, God cannot be divided. I agree with you. But you are looking at the Godhead, Father, Son, and holy Spirit as one single entity you call God. And therefore you conclude that the Son of God didn't really die for our sins because He was still in heaven. Yet He Himself said, "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son..." Jesus is not saying the trinity gave His Son. That would make no sense. The Father gave His Son to die. The Son, in His divine form, could not die. He was immortal. But by becoming fully human, He could and did die. He was able to do this because His life was a gift from His Father, it being His inheritance. The Father permitted His Son to lay His life down. To surrender it to death. And you are right that divinity did not die on Calvary. That's because Jesus laid His divinity and all the prerogatives of His deity aside. He was still the divine Son of God, but His mortality, His power, He left behind and lived as a full human, living by faith in His Father's power operating through Him.
Forum rules forbid me from going any further. I could explain more, and may have already gone too far. Hope you understand. Just remember Jesus's prayer to tie it all together...

“4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ”
John 17:4-5 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

The Son did fully die. There was no part of Him remaining in heaven to carry on in the absence of another part. The sacrifice of the Father in giving His only begotten Son to the human race was real. Jesus for all eternity is now a man. But the glory He once had as a divine deity before creation, had been returned to Him, but He remains restricted forever within a human, albeit spiritual/ heavenly immortal body, such as we will have when we get there.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry, I had intended to respond to this not long after you posted it, but got distracted. You pose a very interesting conundrum, one that has been raised often over the centuries, and even given birth to sects who couldn't come to a biblical conclusion.

No problem Brakelite....
I'm just going to go thru and reply....

The problem is in how people understand the Godhead...trinity. You say that God cannot be divided. You are basing this statement on the creeds, not on the Bible.

Not to change the subject but why are the creeds not biblical?
And then we'd have to discuss how we each understand the Trinity.

Isn't there only ONE WAY to understand the trinity in Christianity?
I'm being a little flippant because Christianity is too broken up by different belief systems and it's just been bothering me lately.

Of course, God cannot be divided. I agree with you. But you are looking at the Godhead, Father, Son, and holy Spirit as one single entity you call God.

What other explanation is there? The Godhead is made up of 3 PERSONS in ONE GOD.
Are you saying they're separate and there are 3 gods?

And therefore you conclude that the Son of God didn't really die for our sins because He was still in heaven.

I said no such thing.
THIS is what I said:
The man/God JESUS was on earth.
The 2nd PERSON of the Trinity NEVER LEFT HEAVEN....
THE LOGOS NEVER LEFT HEAVEN.

If you think the logos left heaven...
then God Father was up there with no reason, no word, no logic,,,,,in human parlance God was missing part of His mental facilities.

Yet He Himself said, "For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son..." Jesus is not saying the trinity gave His Son. That would make no sense. The Father gave His Son to die. The Son, in His divine form, could not die. He was immortal. But by becoming fully human, He could and did die. He was able to do this because His life was a gift from His Father, it being His inheritance. The Father permitted His Son to lay His life down. To surrender it to death. And you are right that divinity did not die on Calvary.

If divinity did not die on Calvary, then we are lost in our sins....
because, as you've correctly stated, Jesus died to atone for man's sin.
He couldn't be just a man because that would not be sufficient to satisfy God.
He could not have been just God because He could not have lived a perfect life as a man.
Both were necessary.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

The Word, the Logos and the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity are all THE SAME.
The Word BECAME FLESH.....
If the Word is part of God,,,
then God became flesh.

You mention a little above about how Jesus was fully human, but that in His divine form He could not die.
Have you studied the hypostatic union? The bible is full of verses about how Jesus was both God and man.
Philippians 2:7
...But emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Do the above state that Jesus was divine?

That's because Jesus laid His divinity and all the prerogatives of His deity aside. He was still the divine Son of God, but His mortality, His power, He left behind and lived as a full human, living by faith in His Father's power operating through Him.
Forum rules forbid me from going any further. I could explain more, and may have already gone too far. Hope you understand. Just remember Jesus's prayer to tie it all together...

No need to explain further Brakelite. I've heard differing opinons on the Godhead in these forums.
Here's the problem....Christianity has established what the Godhead is and how to understand it.
It requires no further investigation...it's YOU that has to come to the understanding as presented in the bible and as taught as far back as the church goes. Arianism is a heresy and heresies cannot be taught in the Christian religion.

“4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. ”
John 17:4-5 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

The Son did fully die. There was no part of Him remaining in heaven to carry on in the absence of another part. The sacrifice of the Father in giving His only begotten Son to the human race was real. Jesus for all eternity is now a man. But the glory He once had as a divine deity before creation, had been returned to Him, but He remains restricted forever within a human, albeit spiritual/ heavenly immortal body, such as we will have when we get there.

What do you mean there was NO PART left of Him in heaven?
My whole point is that GOD CANNOT BE DIVIDED.
If Jesus was just some kind of man....then our sin remains.
Philippians 2:5-11 should be studied anew without preconceived ideas.
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

I'm sure you remember that in the OT God states that "I MYSELF WILL RESCUE THEM" in Ezekiel for instance.
God will rescue His sheep - others have led them astray. (Ezekiel 34:11)

If we don't understand the Trinity properly, strange conundrums will occur, as you've stated.

 

[PinSeeker]

Isn't there only ONE WAY to understand the trinity in Christianity?

I would think so, yes, three distinct Persons ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ but together one God.

The Godhead is made up of 3 PERSONS in ONE GOD.

Sure.

THIS is what I said:
The man/God JESUS was on earth.
The 2nd PERSON of the Trinity NEVER LEFT HEAVEN....
THE LOGOS NEVER LEFT HEAVEN.

This seems to be a contradiction of the first order, GodsGrace. Before answering, though... read on...

The Word, the Logos and the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity are all THE SAME.

Hmmm... Okay, and would you not add Jesus to this, God's Grace? And thus say, the Word, the Logos, the second Person of the triune God and Jesus are "all the same?" Because you seem to be saying the Word, the Logos, and the second person of the triune God are the same and Jesus is different, separate from the other. Is that what you're saying? If so, why? In John 1, right after saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-4), John then says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, 'This was He of Whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because He was before me."') 16 For from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:14-17). Through this whole passage, John is talking about Jesus, finally naming Him in verse 17.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, GodsGrace... what you're really trying to say... but to say "the second Person of the trinity never left heaven" seems a total contradiction to the fact that Jesus dwelled here on earth ~ yes, as 100% God and 100% man, fulfilling the Law perfectly and thereby qualifying Him as Mediator between God and man and therefore our Savior and Redeemer ~ and accomplished our redemption through His sacrifice and resurrection, which you so clearly affirm. Jesus says in John 10:30, as I'm sure you know, that "(He) and the Father are one."

My whole point is that GOD CANNOT BE DIVIDED.

No argument there, but to say that the second Person of the triune God was "divided from God" by coming down from heaven to earth and dwelling with us is... well, against everything John (and any of the other writers of the Bible, Old Testament or New) said/wrote:

Even in His death on the cross, where Jesus was "forsaken" by the Father (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34), He was never "divided" from the Father... 'forsaken' and 'divided' are not to be construed as the same thing. As you well know, I'm sure, Jesus "committed His spirit" to the Father just prior to "breathing His last" (Luke 23:46).

And Paul, as you know, says to the Philippians that Jesus was both "in the form of God" and "in the form of man" ~ we agree what that means, obviously ~ but that Jesus "emptied Himself" and "humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:7-8)

• ...which is to say that although fully God He set aside His position as the second Person of the trinity ~ though still fully in possession of it
• ...which is to say that even in His deity He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," so, though He could certainly have done so did not use it for personal gain, but for the benefit of men... you and me. This is absolute humility ~ "Greater love has no man than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends," which Jesus Himself said in John 15:13 ~ and this is Paul's very point there, exhorting us to that same sort of humility, "look(ing) not only to (our) own interests, but also to the interests of others" and therefore to "have this mind among (our)selves, which is (ours) in Christ Jesus."

If we don't understand the Trinity properly, strange conundrums will occur...

That's certainly possible, yes. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, GodsGrace!

 

[GodsGrace]

I would think so, yes, three distinct Persons ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ but together one God.


Sure.


This seems to be a contradiction of the first order, GodsGrace. Before answering, though... read on...


Hmmm... Okay, and would you not add Jesus to this, God's Grace? And thus say, the Word, the Logos, the second Person of the triune God and Jesus are "all the same?" Because you seem to be saying the Word, the Logos, and the second person of the triune God are the same and Jesus is different, separate from the other. Is that what you're saying? If so, why? In John 1, right after saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" (John 1:1-4), John then says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, 'This was He of Whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because He was before me."') 16 For from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:14-17). Through this whole passage, John is talking about Jesus, finally naming Him in verse 17.

I don't see any contradiction above to what I stated.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, GodsGrace... what you're really trying to say... but to say "the second Person of the trinity never left heaven" seems a total contradiction to the fact that Jesus dwelled here on earth ~ yes, as 100% God and 100% man, fulfilling the Law perfectly and thereby qualifying Him as Mediator between God and man and therefore our Savior and Redeemer ~ and accomplished our redemption through His sacrifice and resurrection, which you so clearly affirm. Jesus says in John 10:30, as I'm sure you know, that "(He) and the Father are one."

Agreed. I see no contradiction to what I've stated.

No argument there, but to say that the second Person of the triune God was "divided from God" by coming down from heaven to earth and dwelling with us is... well, against everything John (and any of the other writers of the Bible, Old Testament or New) said/wrote:

I'm sure you know about Divine Simplicity.
Can God be separated from ANY of His "parts"?
It's not correct to use the word PARTS, but, quite frankly, I don't know how else to describe it.
I'm sure there's an expression but it doesn't come to mind.

Even in His death on the cross, where Jesus was "forsaken" by the Father (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34), He was never "divided" from the Father... 'forsaken' and 'divided' are not to be construed as the same thing. As you well know, I'm sure, Jesus "committed His spirit" to the Father just prior to "breathing His last" (Luke 23:46).

No problem here, Again, I agree.

And Paul, as you know, says to the Philippians that Jesus was both "in the form of God" and "in the form of man" ~ we agree what that means, obviously ~ but that Jesus "emptied Himself" and "humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:7-8)

• ...which is to say that although fully God He set aside His position as the second Person of the trinity ~ though still fully in possession of it
• ...which is to say that even in His deity He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," so, though He could certainly have done so did not use it for personal gain, but for the benefit of men... you and me. This is absolute humility ~ "Greater love has no man than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends," which Jesus Himself said in John 15:13 ~ and this is Paul's very point there, exhorting us to that same sort of humility, "look(ing) not only to (our) own interests, but also to the interests of others" and therefore to "have this mind among (our)selves, which is (ours) in Christ Jesus."

That's certainly possible, yes. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, GodsGrace!

I believe I posted Philippians 2:7-8
You're referring to the hypostatic union and I mentioned that too.
I also mentioned how God cannot be separated from His logos.....
His intellect, His reason, His knowledge, His word....

Maybe the following could help....
Jesus is the logos of God.
Jesus became human...the Logos of God took on humanity.
But God was NEVER WITHOUT His logos.

The following came up first...I'm sure there's more.

Essentially, the patristic explanation of the Logos went like this (my summary): The Father and the Son are inseparable; they are one God, not two, nor is one lesser than the other. The Son is not a creation of the Father but has always eternally existed with the Father and is equal to the Father. There was no time when he was not. How? Because the Gospel of John teaches that Jesus is the Logos. What does that mean?

Well, it's like the (imperfect) distinction between a thought and a person who has the thought. The thought is part of the person, not a separate individual (you cannot separate thoughts from persons, if you try, they become ideas but they are no longer thoughts). As The Logos Jesus is like the thought in God the Father’s mind that created the whole universe. When God spoke the universe into creation, it was the Logos that proceeded from his "mouth," a Word.

But the Word was God. It was God's reason (intelligence) that created the universe, and this Word also was causal-creative; it made it happen. There was no time when God was not thinking; there was no time when God was not with the Logos. And when the Logos took on flesh and lived among us, he did not cease being God’s Logos and, therefore, still eternally God. Before the incarnation, the Logos did not have a body, "but for our sake became man." Thus, in his incarnation, the Logos became Jesus, the God-Man. The Logos makes salvation possible because it merges God and Man in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

source: A Very Brief Introduction to Logos Theology.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's not correct to use the word PARTS, but, quite frankly, I don't know how else to describe it.

Okay, well, yes, that wording may be causing a bit of... ambiguity.

I also mentioned how God cannot be separated from His logos....

His intellect, His reason, His knowledge, His word....

Maybe the following could help....
Jesus is the logos of God.
Jesus became human...the Logos of God took on humanity.
But God was NEVER WITHOUT His logos.

Essentially, the patristic explanation of the Logos went like this (my summary): The Father and the Son are inseparable; they are one God, not two, nor is one lesser than the other. The Son is not a creation of the Father but has always eternally existed with the Father and is equal to the Father. There was no time when he was not. How? Because the Gospel of John teaches that Jesus is the Logos. What does that mean?

This may be the disconnect between us. John used the word 'logos' for a very specific reason. You will probably agree with that, but in that day, people were searching for, wanting to know ~ and in most circles this is still true in one form or another ~ the divine reason implicit in the cosmos... what gives it order and thus form and meaning. Yes, the Gospel of John teaches that Jesus is the Logos, which John says in John 1, of course, but Jesus Himself says in John 14:6, when He says ~ in response to Thomas's question, "How can we know the way?" ~ "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." Jesus is the reason everything exists, or as John said back in John 1, the one through Whom "all things were made... without (Whom) was not any thing made that was made, " and "in (Whom) was life... the light of men (which) shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that "God was NEVER WITHOUT His logos," as you say, but the true Logos was what it was, is what it is, and will be what it will be, despite what anyone else may think it was/is/will be... And Jesus is the personification of that Logos; He is the One Who...

• always has been ~ from the beginning (and really from eternity past) and even during the time He walked the earth
• does even now
• and always will, even into eternity future

...personify the true Logos of God. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, well, yes, that wording may be causing a bit of... ambiguity.


This may be the disconnect between us. John used the word 'logos' for a very specific reason. You will probably agree with that, but in that day, people were searching for, wanting to know ~ and in most circles this is still true in one form or another ~ the divine reason implicit in the cosmos... what gives it order and thus form and meaning. Yes, the Gospel of John teaches that Jesus is the Logos, which John says in John 1, of course, but Jesus Himself says in John 14:6, when He says ~ in response to Thomas's question, "How can we know the way?" ~ "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." Jesus is the reason everything exists, or as John said back in John 1, the one through Whom "all things were made... without (Whom) was not any thing made that was made, " and "in (Whom) was life... the light of men (which) shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that "God was NEVER WITHOUT His logos," as you say, but the true Logos was what it was, is what it is, and will be what it will be, despite what anyone else may think it was/is/will be... And Jesus is the personification of that Logos; He is the One Who...

• always has been ~ from the beginning (and really from eternity past) and even during the time He walked the earth
• does even now
• and always will, even into eternity future

...personify the true Logos of God. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

Yes. I was happy to read you post because this aspect of the logos is never discussed.
I agree fully, Jesus can be said to be the Personification of the Logos.
Thanks for adding to my understanding and using good words.

 

[PinSeeker]

Thanks for using good words.

Unfortunately, I don't do that all the time... but I have my moments, I guess. <smile>

Grace and peace to you!

 

[tailgator]

Daniel 8:24
He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people.


I just wish they could find something better to do with my tax dollars than to give it to this war mongering antichrist.Im.sick and tired of watching him bomb everyone around him killing children.Why do christians support the beast?Everyday he is bombing somebody somewhere.
Then you hear people who call.themselves christians say,Who is like Israel,Who can make war with Israel?No one can ever defeat Israel.