You're not addressing the issue.
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No Condemnation For Those In Christ (Romans 8:1)
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Not interested in games.
Yet the Christian who sins is condemned.
This must mean he's not abiding "in Christ".
I've cited many verses that teach that reality.
You're free to respond to those whenever you please.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
No. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because they are in Christ Jesus.
While your conclusion might be true, Romans 14:23 does not support your conclusion because Paul isn't talking about breaking faith. He is talking about breaking fellowship with those who eat meat.
The word translated "doubt" doesn't mean "question a belief" it means "break company with."
The condemnation was bc of slavery to sin, but they're freed from slavery to Sin in Christ (Ro 8:2) so that IF they walk after the Spirit they fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law (Ro 8:4), and live, but IF they walk after the flesh they will die (Ro 8:12,13). This is the same principle that was true of the Jews, who were typologically "saved" by the blood of their Passover lambs (corresponding to Christians being saved by the blood of "Christ, our Passover lamb"): they were set free from slavery to Pharaoh in Egypt, but only so that they would go and keep God's commands in the Promised land, and, if they would not go and serve God, despite having been saved, they would fall under God's wrath and not inherit what was promised to them.
Meanwhile, the Christian who sins is "condemned" (Ro 14:23). "In Him there is no sin" and "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn 2:4).
Clearly, the Christian who sins is "condemned" bc they're not abiding "in Christ" (Ro 8:1; 1 Jn 2:28), bc abiding in Christ is by keeping His commands (1 Jn 3:23,24). That's why there's no condemnation for those abiding in Christ, but those not abiding are condemned.
Nowhere is that idea present in the verse; it says anything that is not from faith is sin, and this includes eating with doubts.
No, it doesn't, because he goes on to explain "anything that is not from faith is sin", so the person sinned and was condemned bc of eating without faith, or eating with doubt.
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Nope.
The "shrinking back" the word would refer to would be the same as mentioned in Hebrews 10:38 and 1 Jn 2:28.
Otherwise, it's figuratively used to refer to "hesitation"--hence basic unanimity of translating it "doubt" across versions. I haven't read a translation that translates it as you would have me read it.
Again, the opposite of this which Paul puts forth is eating with faith, because whatever is not from faith is sin, bc Ro 1:17 says God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith.
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To clarify: 1 Jn 2:28 warns the "children" (spiritually immature) to remain in Christ or else they will be ashamed and shrink back at the return of Christ.
1 Jn 3:23,24 teaches how to remain in Christ--obey His commands to believe in Jesus's Name, and love one another.
To the degree someone breaks these, they're not abiding--hence, for example, the Galatians, who were not remaining in faith, but following another Gospel, were "severed from Christ" and "deserting God".
These things are why and how I'm explaining Romans 14:23 is another example of a Christian not abiding in Christ. They're breaking the rule "let each man be fully convinced in his own mind" whereby they would be revealing God's righteousness, revealed from faith to faith.
What's the response @Behold gives?
"You can't be unborn of God." This doesn't address the issue. Moreover, it is mere naked "logic" that doesn't take Scriptural precedent into account.
Deuteronomy 32:5 says "they are no longer His children, because of their defect". Whereas Deuteronomy 14:1 called them God's children, somewhere along the line, they became Satan's children (Jn 8:44). We know that they chose another god (Dt 32:21).
This was why God eventually said "You are not My people and I am not your god." (Hos 1). What's important to note is that He says "And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’": those who are God's people are also God's children, so when they are God's people, they are God's children, and when they are not God's people, they are not God's children. "Can a child be unborn?"
So, not only is this reply he gave disrespectful laziness that doesn't even address the point, it is also carnal reasoning ignorance that is debunked by Scripture.
Look at this guy actually trying to argue against Paul the Apostle.
How ludicrous.
To answer your ridiculous ignorance, yes, if you take a shower, and it's not taken in faith, you are sinning.
When you are acting, acting in faith is the only way to reveal God's righteousness.
If you're not revealing God's righteousness, why aren't you? You're pursuing something else, some idol.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
No Condemnation For Those In Christ (Romans 8:1)
The lack of condemnation is because 'those' are in ChristChapter 8:1 follows on from Chapter 7. The word 'therefore' joins the chapter 7 and 8. In Chapter 7 Paul tells us that he is not sinless. He desires to be but he does not find it possible, so he admits he has a terrible dilemma. What is the solution? Being in Christ is the solution. In other words, security is only found in Jesus as opposed to looking for security in oneself ie, by ones sinlessness or ones focus on it.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Do you know the Living Holy Spirit in your heart/spirit..have you been Born Again by Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit?
Reading your understanding of therefore there is no condemnation etc...you seen to understand the written word from your “ own” perspective...
That’s why you are so very confused believing that a Born Again can lose their salvation, it’s really sad to see, ..I Pray that the Lord speaks to your heart/ spirit....instead of the enemy bombarding your thoughts and understanding of God’s written word....we must be Born Of The Spirit...it’s the Living Holy Spirit who brings Gods written word to our understanding in our heart/ spirit....
May God Bless you in your heart/ spirit to know His Living truth.
You need to be Born Of The Spirit , He is The Living Spirit you need , that testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.....God Bless...just my opinion of what you type.
A Born Again doesn’t sin because they have been Born Of God’s seed....one can only understand what that means if one has actually been Born Of God’s seed....the Living seed( Living Holy Spirit) births our spirit into His....it’s a supernatural/ spiritual Living birth...our spirit is brought Alive by the Living Power Of Gods Living Witness, His Living Holy Spirit.
Flesh gives birth to flesh.
Spirit gives birth to spirit....my testimony and belief 100%
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I don't deny that people who disagree with what I'm saying can know God--God doesn't wait for our theology to be perfect to reveal Himself to us--but I'm not interested in sharing the beliefs of the Christians of many different stripes, all with opposing views, all with damnations for one another, who know God.
That would be easy--and stupid.
I am just looking at the Bible, and trying to follow the arguments there. If I find an inconsistency in a view (mostly, I ask God to give me consistency, and resolve my inconsistencies), I'm not going to accept it. It's just that simple.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
100% Amen!!
You don’t need any Bible to be Born Again...that’s an act of God, A Living spiritual act, done by Gods witness His Living Holy Spirit.we need the written word in order to grow and mature in our spirit...as we are spiritual children of God......which is another topic, won’t take this one off topic any further.
My opinion/ testimony belief
God Bless!
VictoryinJesus
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I did go back and read again your OP post. Gave you a like but then wondered why you threw in once saved always saved as a way of condemnation? That part threw me and made me question the motive for the topic.
Love the above “fully convinced in his own mind” … let every man be persuaded in his own mind. Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations.
Love also where it says he who doubts is condemned already. John 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
To me that means condemnation already works the end there death—in him who does not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This one grows weak and perishes and needs THE strength of those claiming to possess all things where although poor (in Christ) making many rich. The man who is condemned already wears a coat of poverty not being rich towards God but he is wasting away in his being separated from God. To me this is what it means by “he is condemn already” in “death already works” …who will divide out their bread with the poor towards God?
^tried to touch on the Op above. I didn’t see any problem with the verses you quoted. As I said…you threw me when the post did a one-eighty around to once saved always saved.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
how did we go from Romans 8 to romans 14.. is it not you that always complains about keeping on topic. Rom 14 has nothign to do with our conversation
Thank you for proving me right. But lets get it clear. It says he is condemned already, because he has not believed.. That changes everything
lol.. We love to read scripture
It says he who has not believed is condemned already.. but you prove you do not believe it
But you are trying to use him to prove a point in error.
He sinned, and he fell.. Thus he needs saved, he did not need saved before this, He EARNED his walk with God and his status as a child of God.. SInce he fell. no one can make that claim
lol. In other words, You have no idea what Adam did..
He condemns himself. because he continues to feel guilty because he is doing something he is not convinced he is ok in doing what he is doing. Its not rocket science.
It does not mean eternal condemnation..
No. I am doing no such thing, You read my words like you do the bible. with your blinders on. you see what you want to see.
lol. I am dealing with scripture head on.. All you appear to be doing is continue to try to deflect from the issues at hand.. Like you always do
Eternally Grateful
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VictoryinJesus
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Security is a good word. I still love the law of jealousies back in Numbers 5…I’ll never forget it. How one woman drinks and is called an adulterer bringing forth death. And the woman who drinks and is Free, and she conceives Seed. Yes…there must be “security” within God otherwise one would be tormented; tossed back and forth between the water and fire.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No, it does not say this,
Can you read?
romans 8: 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
We see here., Paul is calling out the fact that some of them MAY NOT BE SAVED.. And he tells them, IF (maybe you are, maybe you are not)_ indeed the spirit dwells in you..
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
He then states a fact. the body is dead because of sin, why? Because we still sin. But the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Who's righteousness? Well it is not ours. Because we are sill sinning as the passage says, so it must be the righteousness of Christ.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Once again, a fact. IF you are gods child. The spirit who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you. and gives life to your mortal bodies.
Paul continues
. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
How much more clear can he be? If we are saved. We are led by Gods spirit. And we are not given this spirit of fear you are trying to spread. But a spirit of adoption. where I can go to God in all my sin and cry out Abba (A term of endearment, in the english, we call him daddy.. Imagine the fact, all children of God can go to him and call him Daddy!!
Paul continues; what is "no condemnation??
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Those who are not condemned WILL (not might) be conformed to his image, they ARE predestine, They ARE called, They ARE justified, And they ARE glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So I must ask you my friend. Who are you to charge Gods elect and claim they can be condemned again after they are adopted and secured by God?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Get to know the OP. You will see almost every post is with this motive.
Yes, we should not argue about doubtful things, Yet we see this happen all day long. The sabbath arguments, The tithing argument, The denominational arguments,
We should be fully convinced in our own mind. about what? About what we believe, if we think eating pork is a sin,. and are fully convinced, we should not eat pork. if we do. we condemn ourself with doubt..
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
We must be careful to interpret this verse correctly. He is bot talking about eternal condemnation. He is talking about sin. Paul is saying all things are lawful. But if we doubt, and do something we think is sin, To us it is sin, thus we condemn our self..
I am really not sure what you mean here, can you explain?
That is his point, he is attacking OSAS.. almost every post he makes is with this in mind
Taken
Well-Known Member
No Condemnation For Those In Christ (Romans 8:1)
Correct !
Human persons HAVE one of two OPTIONS to Freely Choose regarding their Eternal Destiny…
* Set Aside (ie. Sanctified), Judged; forgiven, restored, washed, cleansed, covered, quickened, sealed, claimed, AND
SENTENCED:
FOREVER WITH the Lord God Almighty
OR
* Set Aside (ie. Rejected), Judged;
not forgiven, not restored, not washed, not cleansed, not covered, not quickened, not sealed, not claimed, AND
SENTENCED:
Condemned to DESTRUCTION. Remembered NO MORE, AND
FOREVER withOUT the Lord God Almighty
The Lord God Almighty Himself…HAS PREPARED a “PLACE” for EVERY manKIND of being WHOSE own Freewill DICTATES his Eternal STANDING… WITH or withOUT the
Lord God Almighty.
Glory to God,
Taken
Correct !
Human persons HAVE one of two OPTIONS to Freely Choose regarding their Eternal Destiny…
* Set Aside (ie. Sanctified), Judged; forgiven, restored, washed, cleansed, covered, quickened, sealed, claimed, AND
SENTENCED:
FOREVER WITH the Lord God Almighty
OR
* Set Aside (ie. Rejected), Judged;
not forgiven, not restored, not washed, not cleansed, not covered, not quickened, not sealed, not claimed, AND
SENTENCED:
Condemned to DESTRUCTION. Remembered NO MORE, AND
FOREVER withOUT the Lord God Almighty
The Lord God Almighty Himself…HAS PREPARED a “PLACE” for EVERY manKIND of being WHOSE own Freewill DICTATES his Eternal STANDING… WITH or withOUT the
Lord God Almighty.
Glory to God,
Taken
VictoryinJesus
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Condemned already …I’m not sure what you’re asking? I mean to be condemned already to me means …being without God. Like a child in the womb being separated from the essential food supply and nourishment source given through the cord, nutrients coming directly from its mother. It won’t survive without that nourishment. it’s just a fact “condemned already” isn’t it? As condemned as a growing embryo shut off from a food supply source is…the cause and effect of “without God” ? Does that make sense? (Maybe that’s a bad example. Don’t misunderstand I’m not suggesting condemnation for newborns, only giving it as an example of what “already” means to me)
it makes me think of: overcharging
2 Corinthians 2:6-8 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. [7] So that contrariwise you ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. [8] Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
To me condemned already is a judicial term.
A person on death row is condemned already, Unless his judgment is removed or redeemed, or he is retried and found innocent.
so a person who is condemned already is in that condemned state.. It is not even attached to the embryo, and it is not that it will die, it is the fact it is dead already. (If Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness)
The body is dead because of sin. If the person is not born again, He will suffer the second death, the end result of his or her just condemnation.
The new birth comes through faith. He who believes is not condemned.
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