No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

We are not on the same page. I don't think the verse that says and Judas went and hanged himself is all that awesome.

Could it be possible you are looking at this from mans point of view? That he has to keep something or he lives with condemnation?

I'm looking at this from God's point of view. He doesn't have any condemnation to those who walk in the spirit.

1. Whether Judas hanging himself is awesome or not is subjective--when Babylon is judged, those who dwell in heaven rejoice and praise God. I think maybe you're looking at it from an earthly perspective.

2. God's point of view is expressed in God's Word, which is what the discussion is about, so neither side should emptily assert "you are looking at things from man's pov, whereas I have God's pov", but each should just lay out their perspectives using Scriptures that moved them to their pov.

It's simple, really. I have laid out the Scriptural reasons for my having arrived at my pov, and you, imo, have given me no Scriptural reason to stop being convinced that i have been justifiably moved to my position that I hold.

Thanks

 

[Peterlag]

1. Whether Judas hanging himself is awesome or not is subjective--when Babylon is judged, those who dwell in heaven rejoice and praise God. I think maybe you're looking at it from an earthly perspective.

2. God's point of view is expressed in God's Word, which is what the discussion is about, so neither side should emptily assert "you are looking at things from man's pov, whereas I have God's pov", but each should just lay out their perspectives using Scriptures that moved them to their pov.

It's simple, really. I have laid out the Scriptural reasons for my having arrived at my pov, and you, imo, have given me no Scriptural reason to stop being convinced that i have been justifiably moved to my position that I hold.

Thanks

Romans 8:1 deals with walking in the spirit. I fear Christians everywhere think that means walking in their flesh and calling it spiritual. And they all say they got it from the Bible.

 

[GracePeace]

Romans 8:1 deals with walking in the spirit. I fear Christians everywhere think that means walking in their flesh and calling it spiritual. And they all say they got it from the Bible.

I understand.
Your concern is with defining the method whereby Christians walk in the spirit, and with how many misunderstand the Bible along those lines.

That is not the concern of this thread. The concern is reconciling Ro 8:1 with 14:23, and with establishing that not all remain "in Christ", because that basic reality, itself, is denied by many on this forum. The concern is not mainly with defining "how to walk in the spirit", and how some misunderstand Scripture--the solution to which would simply be to point them, whether they admit error or not, to Scripture that renders their incorrect conclusions manifestly incoherent.

 

[Peterlag]

I understand.
Your concern is with defining the method whereby Christians walk in the spirit, and with how many misunderstand the Bible along those lines.

That is not the concern of this thread. The concern is reconciling Ro 8:1 with 14:23, and with establishing that not all remain "in Christ", because that basic reality, itself, is denied by many on this forum. The concern is not mainly with defining "how to walk in the spirit", and how some misunderstand Scripture--the solution to which would simply be to point them, whether they admit error or not, to Scripture that renders their incorrect conclusions manifestly incoherent.

We are on two different pages looking at the same verse. I don't see Romans 8:1 being related to Romans 14:23.

Romans 14:22 is referring to humans who may or may not condemn themselves.

Romans 14:22
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Romans 14:23 is referring to humans who walk by their flesh and not in Christ because faith is in Christ.

Romans 14:23
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 8:1 is referring to God's classification on condemnation that He does not see when we are in Christ.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[GracePeace]

We are on two different pages looking at the same verse. I don't see Romans 8:1 being related to Romans 14:23.

Romans 14:22 is referring to humans who may or may not condemn themselves.

Romans 14:22
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

This refers not to the person who condemns himself, but to bringing condemnation on him by doing what he allows in a way that is destructive to his brother.

Romans 14
19So then, let us pursue what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to let his eating be a stumbling block. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything to cause your brother to stumble.d
22Keep your belief about such matters between yourself and God.e Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

Romans 14:23 is referring to humans who walk by their flesh and not in Christ because faith is in Christ.

Romans 14:23
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

No, this is not about faith in Christ. Nowhere in the chapter is that the issue. The issue, here, is the breaking of the rule, "Each man must be fully convinced in his own mind"--eating with doubt is eating without being fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 14
5One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;b he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 8:1 is referring to God's classification on condemnation that He does not see when we are in Christ.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no condemnation for those "in Christ", but the believer who sins by doing anything with doubt, not fully convinced in his own mind, does not remain in Christ, thus he is experiencing condemnation.

Are we on the same page now?

 

[Peterlag]

This refers not to the person who condemns himself, but to bringing condemnation on him by doing what he allows in a way that is destructive to his brother.

Romans 14
19So then, let us pursue what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to let his eating be a stumbling block. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything to cause your brother to stumble.d
22Keep your belief about such matters between yourself and God.e Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

No, this is not about faith in Christ. Nowhere in the chapter is that the issue. The issue, here, is the breaking of the rule, "Each man must be fully convinced in his own mind"--eating with doubt is eating without being fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 14
5One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;b he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

There is no condemnation for those "in Christ", but the believer who sins by doing anything with doubt, not fully convinced in his own mind, does not remain in Christ, thus he is experiencing condemnation.

Are we on the same page now?

Romans 14:22
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

This refers not to the person who condemns himself, but to bringing condemnation on him by doing what he allows in a way that is destructive to his brother.

*** It does not say it brings condemnation on him. It says he that condemneth.

No, this is not about faith in Christ. Nowhere in the chapter is that the issue. The issue, here, is the breaking of the rule, "Each man must be fully convinced in his own mind"--eating with doubt is eating without being fully convinced in his own mind.

*** I don't have these problems because I walk in Christ and faith and love are in Christ Jesus, which means in my spirit because it's the spirit of Christ that is in me.

There is no condemnation for those "in Christ", but the believer who sins by doing anything with doubt, not fully convinced in his own mind, does not remain in Christ, thus he is experiencing condemnation.

*** You are either in Christ or you're walking in your flesh. There's no such thing as falling out of the spirit because you had a bad thought. It's impossible to sin when we are in Christ.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[GracePeace]

*** It does not say it brings condemnation on him. It says he that condemneth.

I already know your view.
Because I knew your view, what I did was I responded to it. I demonstrated that the context of that statement (hurting others with your things approve of) makes it clear it is not to be read that way.
Moving the conversation forward, for you, therefore, would mean interacting with that answer I gave you (ie, you'd want to try to prove the context shows he's not actually hurting anyone--hurting others would bring God's condemnationon him, not "merely" his own opinion), not repeating the same view you hold which you already made known.
The consequences, also, of your view is that you say people abide in Christ while they're sinning (the verse (23) says he's SINNING). Are you sure you want to say that?

*** I don't have these problems because I walk in Christ and faith and love are in Christ Jesus, which means in my spirit because it's the spirit of Christ that is in me.

The title of the thread is not "Peterlag : Does He Have The Problems Described In Romans 14?".

This thread is, as has already been explained to you (which thing I would thank you to keep in mind, so it doesn't have to be repeated endlessly) about reconciling Romans 8:1 with Romans 14:23.

The issue of "faith" in Romans 14, again, isn't "Did you believe the Gospel?" The issue of "faith" in Romans 14 regards whether we are fully persuaded in our own minds that what we're doing is acceptable to do as unto the Lord.

*** You are either in Christ or you're walking in your flesh. There's no such thing as falling out of the spirit because you had a bad thought. It's impossible to sin when we are in Christ.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

That only leads you back to square one: How does it come about that "there is no condemnation for those in Christ", yet the believer who sins "is condemned"?

Couldn't it be that we "remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28) by obeying His commands (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3;23,24) explains how this could come about--ie, instances of sin are, ipso facto, instances of not keeping His commands, thus are instances of not abiding, thus are instances wherein such sinners are exposed to condemnation?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Since there is "no condemnation" for those in Christ (Ro 8:1), why is the sinning Christian "condemned" (Ro 14:23)?

My way of reconciling these is simply recognizing that not all remain in Christ: remaining requires obeying God's commands (i. believe, and ii. walk in love (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24)), but the believer in Ro 14:23 is sinning, so he's not remaining "in Christ", where there is "no condemnation".

Past failed attempts at reconciling the two have included:
1. Romans 14:23 doesn't refer to a sinning believer
2. Believers don't sin at all
3. Thinking Ro 8:1 needs reconciliation with Ro 14:23 proves you're not born of God.

What is your way of reconciling Ro 8:1 with Ro 14:23?

Why must they be reconciled?

 

[GracePeace]

Why must they be reconciled?

They don't.
You may be able live with a mental situation like that.

I'm not able to live with a mental situation like that--knowing I don’t know what God is saying, so I'm not really believing what God is saying, and, then, knowing I'm also responsible for relaying that message that I don't comprehend.

I'm not able to live with that situation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

They don't.
You may be able live with a mental situation like that.

I'm not able to live with a mental situation like that--knowing I don’t know what God is saying, so I'm not really believing what God is saying, and, then, knowing I'm also responsible for relaying that message that I don't comprehend.

I'm not able to live with that situation.

Okay, let me rephrase the question.

If God has forgiven someone, declaring that he will not hold his or her sins against them, then why do you say that the single sin mentioned in Romans 4:23 nullifies God's promise?

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, let me rephrase the question.

If God has forgiven someone, declaring that he will not hold his or her sins against them, then why do you say that the single sin mentioned in Romans 4:23 nullifies God's promise?

You're only raising another issue that needs another thread.

We've already discussed your way of trying to reconcile Ro 8:1 and 14:23--your way of preserving 8:1 is to simply deny the obvious truth that the one in view in 14:23 is a "true believer" at all. We also saw that there is no one, not even those who hold to your view you're preserving by denying the plain truth of the text, who agrees with you.

I can't live like that, knowing I'm denying truth just to protect my system.

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, let me rephrase the question.

If God has forgiven someone, declaring that he will not hold his or her sins against them, then why do you say that the single sin mentioned in Romans 4:23 nullifies God's promise?

The same God that promises He forgets sin also forgets righteousness.

Ezekiel 18
24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

In the New Covenant, faith is counted as righteousness, so the righteousness God "forgets" is that the person had faith--their name is blotted out of the Book of Life, and the debt that had been forgiven and forgotten returns before God.

Matthew 18
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Therefore, we see, again, that being "in Christ" is not a static state, but, unfortunately, can, and does, fluctuate; this is the only satisfactory explanation for how "there is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ", yet the "true believer" who sins "is condemned" (he's not remaining in Christ, because that is by obeying commands, and, being a sinner, he is, ipso facto, breaking commands).

 

[Peterlag]

I already know your view.
Because I knew your view, what I did was I responded to it. I demonstrated that the context of that statement (hurting others with your things approve of) makes it clear it is not to be read that way.
Moving the conversation forward, for you, therefore, would mean interacting with that answer I gave you (ie, you'd want to try to prove the context shows he's not actually hurting anyone--hurting others would bring God's condemnationon him, not "merely" his own opinion), not repeating the same view you hold which you already made known.
The consequences, also, of your view is that you say people abide in Christ while they're sinning (the verse (23) says he's SINNING). Are you sure you want to say that?

The title of the thread is not "Peterlag : Does He Have The Problems Described In Romans 14?".

This thread is, as has already been explained to you (which thing I would thank you to keep in mind, so it doesn't have to be repeated endlessly) about reconciling Romans 8:1 with Romans 14:23.

The issue of "faith" in Romans 14, again, isn't "Did you believe the Gospel?" The issue of "faith" in Romans 14 regards whether we are fully persuaded in our own minds that what we're doing is acceptable to do as unto the Lord.

That only leads you back to square one: How does it come about that "there is no condemnation for those in Christ", yet the believer who sins "is condemned"?

Couldn't it be that we "remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28) by obeying His commands (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3;23,24) explains how this could come about--ie, instances of sin are, ipso facto, instances of not keeping His commands, thus are instances of not abiding, thus are instances wherein such sinners are exposed to condemnation?

1.) For you to say...The consequences, also, of your view is that you say people abide in Christ while they're sinning

Means we are not on the same page because a Christian cannot sin in Christ.

2.) You say... How does it come about that "there is no condemnation for those in Christ", yet the believer who sins "is condemned"?

I say the believe cannot sin in Christ.

3.) You write in the beginning of this thread... My way of reconciling these is simply recognizing that not all remain in Christ: remaining requires obeying God's commands

I do not believe the Christian can fall out of walking by the spirit by sinning since the Christian cannot sin in Christ which is the same as walking by or in the spirit.

 

[GracePeace]

1.) For you to say...The consequences, also, of your view is that you say people abide in Christ while they're sinning

Means we are not on the same page because a Christian cannot sin in Christ.

Right, I'm saying they depart from Christ in order to sin--as it says "children, remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28), and "Children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 Jn 5:21). Spiritually immature Christians sometimes leave Christ to go after idols. When someone does something with doubt, it is departing from Christ.

2.) You say... How does it come about that "there is no condemnation for those in Christ", yet the believer who sins "is condemned"?

I say the believe cannot sin in Christ.

Why does the text in question say that the person is sinning and is condemned?

3.) You write in the beginning of this thread... My way of reconciling these is simply recognizing that not all remain in Christ: remaining requires obeying God's commands

I do not believe the Christian can fall out of walking by the spirit by sinning since the Christian cannot sin in Christ which is the same as walking by or in the spirit.

I have to go with the text, which teaches that if and when a Christian does anything that does not proceed from faith ("each man must be fully convinced in his own mind"), he sins, and "is condemned".

 

[Peterlag]

Right, I'm saying they depart from Christ in order to sin--as it says "children, remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28), and "Children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 Jn 5:21). Spiritually immature Christians sometimes leave Christ to go after idols. When someone does something with doubt, it is departing from Christ.

Why does the text in question say that the person is sinning and is condemned?

I have to go with the text, which teaches that if and when a Christian does anything that does not proceed from faith ("each man must be fully convinced in his own mind"), he sins, and "is condemned".

There's nothing in the text of Romans 8:1 that says a Christian can sin.

 

[GracePeace]

There's nothing in the text of Romans 8:1 that says a Christian can sin.

Romans 14
5Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind...
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

I have not read all the posts on but I can offer my understanding as I read scripture

First, we are not all born of God's will (John 1:13). Second, there are two perspectives: earthly and heavenly. Because we can't see outside of time and know all things, we can't know who is saved and who is not but God knows. So on a earthly take we can experience people going to church, praying, reading scripture, singing, and even preaching but we don't know their heart.

I did see your comment on those walking in the Spirit can not sin... we can always make mistakes that are sinful. Choosing to disregard His commands and ways is one thing but we can make mistakes, have doubt and still be in the Spirit.

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit since the womb but he sitting in prison awaiting death questioned If Jesus was the Messiah after he had already confessed and preached that He was. Isn't doubt a sin?

We are human and we will fight the enemy everyday not to fall into temptation.

God wants us to love Him with all our hearts, mind, and soul. Let's do that. Living to honor Him with every word, action and deed.

 

[GracePeace]

I have not read all the posts on but I can offer my understanding as I read scripture

First, we are not all born of God's will (John 1:13). Second, there are two perspectives: earthly and heavenly. Because we can't see outside of time and know all things, we can't know who is saved and who is not but God knows. So on a earthly take we can experience people going to church, praying, reading scripture, singing, and even preaching but we don't know their heart.

I did see your comment on those walking in the Spirit can not sin... we can always make mistakes that are sinful. Choosing to disregard His commands and ways is one thing but we can make mistakes, have doubt and still be in the Spirit.

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit since the womb but he sitting in prison awaiting death questioned If Jesus was the Messiah after he had already confessed and preached that He was. Isn't doubt a sin?

We are human and we will fight the enemy everyday not to fall into temptation.

God wants us to love Him with all our hearts, mind, and soul. Let's do that. Living to honor Him with every word, action and deed.

The solution I have to how "there is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ", and, yet, the Christian who sins "is condemned", is simply that not all "remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28), because remaining in Him is by faith in His Name and by walking in love (1 Jn 3:23.24), which is walking in faith (Ro 14:5), because "faith works through love" (Gal 5:6), and the rule for Christians is "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind... what ever does not proceed from faith is sin" (Ro 14:5, 23).

 

[face2face]

Since there is "no condemnation" for those in Christ (Ro 8:1), why is the sinning Christian "condemned" (Ro 14:23)?

My way of reconciling these is simply recognizing that not all remain in Christ: remaining requires obeying God's commands (i. believe, and ii. walk in love (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24)), but the believer in Ro 14:23 is sinning, so he's not remaining "in Christ", where there is "no condemnation".

Past failed attempts at reconciling the two have included:
1. Romans 14:23 doesn't refer to a sinning believer
2. Believers don't sin at all
3. Thinking Ro 8:1 needs reconciliation with Ro 14:23 proves you're not born of God.

What is your way of reconciling Ro 8:1 with Ro 14:23?

Are you referring to the "doubt" of James 1? That he / she should not expect anything form the Lord?
F2F

 

[Peterlag]

Romans 14
5Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind...
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

You use these two verses together and they are not referring to the same thing.

Romans 8:1 is referring to Christians who are walking in the spirit.
Romans 14:23 is referring to those who are not walking in the spirit.

Romans 8:1 cannot become Romans 14:23 by sinning or eating food or having lunch with his brother. The two verses have nothing to do with each other.