Mark of the Beast and salvation

[David in NJ]

It is only post trib positions that have an issue. The church is not even going to be on earth at that time.

Why people are concerned about salvation, after God has removed the gift is beyond me. The only act of salvation at that time is to have one's head chopped off. That is something you cannot take back once it happens. Neither is receiving the mark.

It won't be about sinning nor accidently making the wrong choice.

Jesus says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Adam]

So we live inside each other's bodies? That is a strange interpretation.

You may be living in another human's body, but not me.

The man of sin is the human nature. Man is like an animal dwelled by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brakelite]

No sabbath observance can complete our salvation OR add to it.

Correct. The Sabbath isn't about salvation, it's about relationship.

 

[David in NJ]

Correct. The Sabbath isn't about salvation, it's about relationship.

You mean like this = Hebrews 10:24-25

"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

[Biblethumper]

We will not be here for the tribulation, Gods wrath is for the Jew and gentile unbelievers, those sealed are the 144,000 Jewish believers to preach the gospel of salvation to the world. Those that God tells to endure to the end are new believers during the tribulation to resist taking the mark because the age of grace the church is raptured up. There are 7 dispensations in the Bible which are different periods in history in how God deals with that age. The age of grace starts when Jesus appears to Paul on the road to Damascus where a mystery of God is revealed only to Paul to preach to the Gentiles that we are included as Gods people through grace when we believe and we cannot lose our salvation. When we are raptured up the age of grace ends and those in the tribulation must accept Christ and cannot take the mark or they will be dammed. They must die for their faith or survive somehow till Jesus comes back at his second coming and then will walk into the millennium in their mortal bodies so they can start to repopulate the earth. Us saints in immortal bodies cannot have children

 

[David in NJ]

We will not be here for the tribulation, Gods wrath is for the Jew and gentile unbelievers, those sealed are the 144,000 Jewish believers to preach the gospel of salvation to the world. Those that God tells to endure to the end are new believers during the tribulation to resist taking the mark because the age of grace the church is raptured up. There are 7 dispensations in the Bible which are different periods in history in how God deals with that age. The age of grace starts when Jesus appears to Paul on the road to Damascus where a mystery of God is revealed only to Paul to preach to the Gentiles that we are included as Gods people through grace when we believe and we cannot lose our salvation. When we are raptured up the age of grace ends and those in the tribulation must accept Christ and cannot take the mark or they will be dammed. They must die for their faith or survive somehow till Jesus comes back at his second coming and then will walk into the millennium in their mortal bodies so they can start to repopulate the earth. Us saints in immortal bodies cannot have children

Your statements here:
a.) "We will not be here for the tribulation,"
Where is this stated in Scripture?

b.) "Gods wrath is for the Jew and gentile unbelievers",
This is True and easily found in Scripture

c.) "those sealed are the 144,000 Jewish believers to preach the gospel of salvation to the world."
This is not stated in Revelation or anywhere else in Scripture.

d.) "Those that God tells to endure to the end are new believers during the tribulation to resist taking the mark because the age of grace the church is raptured up."
Unless you can prove this from Scripture = You just created a heresy......which is a lie that leads to death

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Those days being the last 1993 years of trouble for the church:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Those days of tribulation. The church is not on earth for Jacob's trouble.

 

[David in NJ]

Those days being the last 1993 years of trouble for the church:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Those days of tribulation. The church is not on earth for Jacob's trouble.

OK - i have OPEN ears, eyes and heart

Please post the precise scripture(s) that clearly state/show = "The church is not on earth for Jacob's trouble."

 

[Timtofly]

OK - i have OPEN ears, eyes and heart

Please post the precise scripture(s) that clearly state/show = "The church is not on earth for Jacob's trouble."

Please state Scripture that the church is on earth after the Second Coming.

Please state Scripture that defines the church as the house of Jacob.

The issue is you conflate the church with Jacob.

There is not a single verse that states the church goes anywhere at any time. Is Jacob raptured at the Second Coming? Show me a verse that states Jacob is waiting to enter Paradise or live in the New Jerusalem.

Where does it claim Jacob is redeemed prior to Jacob going through great tribulation?

That would mean no one goes through Jacob's trouble, not even Jacob.

Jacob has to go through the fire. Explain to me why the church has to go through the punishment of the Cross, if Jesus already did that? Do you take up the Cross each day? Does Jacob take up the Cross each day? Should all the OT and NT saints who have physically died come back and let everyone go through Jacob's trouble to stay on the safe side of your understanding?

Israel or Jacob has never recovered totally from the ten tribes being spread across the earth. Why are you concerned that a few NT redeemed have to be subjected to an even greater tribulation than Jacob has had for the last 3,000 years, just because they happen to be alive just before the Second Coming?
Show me a verse that uses the word church and a rapture, and I will show you that the word Jacob is not in it.

Your "church" was not even around when the northern ten tribes were scattered. Your "church" was not around when Jesus died on the Cross. Why all of a sudden do you need your "church" to be around when Jesus shows up as King to rescue Jacob and then put them through the greatest trouble they have ever faced in 4,000 years.

Scripture calls it their greatest time of trouble. Using the term Jacob specifically. Since the term church is not in those verse it is safe to say they won't face Jacob's trouble. All the verses clearly and specifically leave the church out. So unless Paradise is going to come to earth and all go through the trouble with Jacob, you need to find your own verse to that end. Because the church is already in Paradise and the New Jerusalem coming to earth is still a thousand years away.

 

[David in NJ]

Please state Scripture that the church is on earth after the Second Coming.

Please state Scripture that defines the church as the house of Jacob.

The issue is you conflate the church with Jacob.

There is not a single verse that states the church goes anywhere at any time. Is Jacob raptured at the Second Coming? Show me a verse that states Jacob is waiting to enter Paradise or live in the New Jerusalem.

Where does it claim Jacob is redeemed prior to Jacob going through great tribulation?

That would mean no one goes through Jacob's trouble, not even Jacob.

Jacob has to go through the fire. Explain to me why the church has to go through the punishment of the Cross, if Jesus already did that? Do you take up the Cross each day? Does Jacob take up the Cross each day? Should all the OT and NT saints who have physically died come back and let everyone go through Jacob's trouble to stay on the safe side of your understanding?

Israel or Jacob has never recovered totally from the ten tribes being spread across the earth. Why are you concerned that a few NT redeemed have to be subjected to an even greater tribulation than Jacob has had for the last 3,000 years, just because they happen to be alive just before the Second Coming?
Show me a verse that uses the word church and a rapture, and I will show you that the word Jacob is not in it.

Your "church" was not even around when the northern ten tribes were scattered. Your "church" was not around when Jesus died on the Cross. Why all of a sudden do you need your "church" to be around when Jesus shows up as King to rescue Jacob and then put them through the greatest trouble they have ever faced in 4,000 years.

Scripture calls it their greatest time of trouble. Using the term Jacob specifically. Since the term church is not in those verse it is safe to say they won't face Jacob's trouble. All the verses clearly and specifically leave the church out. So unless Paradise is going to come to earth and all go through the trouble with Jacob, you need to find your own verse to that end. Because the church is already in Paradise and the New Jerusalem coming to earth is still a thousand years away.

#1 - Matthew ch24 - did you ever read it? If you did why do you not believe what HE said?

#2 - i never said that Jacob was the Church

#3 - There is no rapture until His Second Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

#4 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:10

#5 - Daniel 12:1-3

 

[Timtofly]

#1 - Matthew ch24 - did you ever read it? If you did why do you not believe what HE said?

#2 - i never said that Jacob was the Church

#3 - There is no rapture until His Second Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

#4 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:10

#5 - Daniel 12:1-3

Then you just don't see Jacob's trouble as being during the 7 Trumpets while the angels are gathering Israel from among the nations, and bringing all the sheep home. The sheep are gathered after Jesus is sitting in judgment in Jerusalem. The sheep are gathered to Israel from every nation. The angels transport them. Do you not accept the point the angels are doing the gathering?

Jacob is not the church so cannot be raptured to Jerusalem. They are gathered by the angels from all over the earth. That many are received as goats and cast into the LOF is why this is the greatest trouble Israel has faced. Why would you think any one who is part of the church is turned into a goat? The church was already removed at the Second Coming. The goats are of Jacob.

 

[David in NJ]

Then you just don't see Jacob's trouble as being during the 7 Trumpets while the angels are gathering Israel from among the nations, and bringing all the sheep home. The sheep are gathered after Jesus is sitting in judgment in Jerusalem. The sheep are gathered to Israel from every nation. The angels transport them. Do you not accept the point the angels are doing the gathering?

Jacob is not the church so cannot be raptured to Jerusalem. They are gathered by the angels from all over the earth. That many are received as goats and cast into the LOF is why this is the greatest trouble Israel has faced. Why would you think any one who is part of the church is turned into a goat? The church was already removed at the Second Coming. The goats are of Jacob.

WE, you and i, are to SEE the same Truth = "It is written".

Please read this word of God that pertains to the Day of Jacob's Trouble and the Second Coming of Christ = Dan 12:1-3

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.
3Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[Timtofly]

WE, you and i, are to SEE the same Truth = "It is written".

Please read this word of God that pertains to the Day of Jacob's Trouble and the Second Coming of Christ = Dan 12:1-3

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.
3Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Jesus is on earth at the Second Coming. He does not send the church to represent Him.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus is on earth at the Second Coming. He does not send the church to represent Him.

Of course Jesus returns to earth at His Second Coming.

Before Jesus places His Feet on the Mt. of Olives He gathers His Elect/the Saints from one end of Heaven to the other.

1 Thess 3:13
so that He may establish your hearts in blamelessness and holiness before our God and Father
at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.

1 Thess 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ rise first.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course Jesus returns to earth at His Second Coming.

Before Jesus places His Feet on the Mt. of Olives He gathers His Elect/the Saints from one end of Heaven to the other.

1 Thess 3:13
so that He may establish your hearts in blamelessness and holiness before our God and Father
at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.

1 Thess 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ rise first.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

So from these verses being with the Lord, the full Trinity, does not mean Jesus does not remain on the earth to sit on His glorious throne. God and the Holy Spirit are still the Lord God.

The Lord God was still in heaven when Jesus was born as a baby and grew up, to die on the Cross.

Those verses do not say the church comes to the earth, but remains in the air, and then remains in Paradise.

Jesus opens the 7th Seal seated on His glorious throne in Jerusalem. This is after reconstructing the entire ME per Zechariah 14.

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Then the 7 Trumpets sound.

 

[jcentricity]

One could say Adam already sold his soul to Satan in the Garden of Eden. Adam is the man whose number is 666. All of mankind fall under that number 666. The expiration mark is 666. Once it is literally applied to the merchandise, ie humanity it is over, and time is up. No man has outdone Adam in being the dominant 666 title holder.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

APOSTATES in the Greek equals 666 the number of the beast. 1/3 of the angels became APOSTATES. Adam and Eve became APOSTATES. King Solomon had 666 shekels a sign he would become APOSTATE. When you reject Christ you receive the mark of the beast 666 aka the name APOSTATES

 

[Timtofly]

APOSTATES in the Greek equals 666 the number of the beast. 1/3 of the angels became APOSTATES. Adam and Eve became APOSTATES. King Solomon had 666 shekels a sign he would become APOSTATE. When you reject Christ you receive the mark of the beast 666 aka the name APOSTATES

Adam is the name of the man the number 666 belongs to. But the number will be given by God and placed on the head or right hand to signify that person's name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. A reprobate apostate.

 

[jcentricity]

Adam is the name of the man the number 666 belongs to. But the number will be given by God and placed on the head or right hand to signify that person's name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. A reprobate apostate.

Babylon in Book of Revelation represents phase of Babylon that not only includes traditional pagans but also Apostate churches. Look at the world and now you see a portion of Protestant churches becoming Apostate and joining Babylon. In Book of Revelation Jesus warns church that if they become Apostate he will remove their candlestick. Remove from where? The Kingdom of God. Move to where? To Babylon where church is now ruled by the King of Babylon again explaining why an Apostate church is synonymous with Babylon

 

[David in NJ]

So from these verses being with the Lord, the full Trinity, does not mean Jesus does not remain on the earth to sit on His glorious throne. God and the Holy Spirit are still the Lord God.

The Lord God was still in heaven when Jesus was born as a baby and grew up, to die on the Cross.

Those verses do not say the church comes to the earth, but remains in the air, and then remains in Paradise.

Jesus opens the 7th Seal seated on His glorious throne in Jerusalem. This is after reconstructing the entire ME per Zechariah 14.

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Then the 7 Trumpets sound.

Well you are a little confused on some things here(maybe JW error?).

When God became flesh = John ch1 = Jesus continued in Heaven being One with the Father and Holy Spirit.

Dwell on this = "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." = the Word that became flesh dwelt among us.....

 

[jcentricity]

Well your a little confused on some things here(maybe JW error?).

When God became flesh = John ch1 = Jesus continued in Heaven being One with the Father and Holy Spirit.

Dwell on this = "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." = the Word that became flesh dwelt among us.....

JW is an Apostate form of Christianity so no I am not JW. I am Protestant. I think your confused when you say church is not on earth it goes against basic essentials of Christianity and sounds like view from Apostate form of Christianity. So you are claiming 7 churches in Book of Revelation were not real churches? There is the spiritual kingdom of God and physical kingdom of God. Nation of Israel in Old Testament represented the Kingdom of God on earth. In New Testament the Gentile churches + Christian Jews became Kingdom of God on earth. Now bible predicted church Apostatsy basically a portion of the church would become Apostate no different than a portion of Israel that became Apostate. Also note only a portion of the church has become Apostate there are many churches that have not become Apostate.