Limited atonement !

[Hey You!]

Its a Gospel Doctrine, there is no Gospel without it.

That's Special Pleading. What if someone told you that there is no Gospel without believing the Pope is the Vicar of Christ? You and I would say, believing this is not part of what Saint Paul preached from the beginning; right? How would you prove it? By citing 1 Cor 15:1-8...

Okay Provisionists, @brightfame52 has okayed your Gospel of Universal Atonement; because he believes his personal interpretation of the Gospel is a part of 1 Cor 15. Tell him your Gospel is just as good as his, since it's okay to tuck anything you want into Saint Paul's original Gospel of most importance...

 

[brightfame52]

That's Special Pleading. What if someone told you that there is no Gospel without believing the Pope is the Vicar of Christ? You and I would say, believing this is not part of what Saint Paul preached from the beginning; right? How would you prove it? By citing 1 Cor 15:1-8...

Okay Provisionists, @brightfame52 has okayed your Gospel of Universal Atonement; because he believes his personal interpretation of the Gospel is a part of 1 Cor 15. Tell him your Gospel is just as good as his, since it's okay to tuck anything you want into Saint Paul's original Gospel of most importance...

You know 1 Cor 15:1-4 is a outline, Paul went into detail. For instance who is Christ of 1 Cor 15:1-4 You dont think Paul showed who Christ was through the OT scriptures ?

 

[Hey You!]

You know 1 Cor 15:1-4 is a outline, Paul went into detail. For instance who is Christ of 1 Cor 15:1-4 You dont think Paul showed who Christ was through the OT scriptures ?

I thought you like Sola Scriptura. Those Verses contain the foremost points of the Gospel; neither the existence of the Pope and Limited Atonement are mentioned...

I see the dodging on both sides now. If Limited Atonement is not mentioned as a foremost part of the Gospel given to the Corinthians, but it is part of your Gospel; then this shows that Saint Paul's Gospel presentation is also the Gospel for All...

Later...

 

[Lambano]

No, no; never add anything to the Bible...

You pretty much have to add the disclaimer to the Gospel if Limited Atonement is true. If you proclaim the 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel to the general public, you don’t know who is elect and who is non-elect. You are lying to the non-elect. Christ did not die for their sins. The Gospel is a lie, and they should not believe it.

 

[brightfame52]

Wow, and I thou

I thought you like Sola Scriptura. Those Verses contain the foremost points of the Gospel; neither the existence of the Pope and Limited Atonement are mentioned...

I see the dodging on both sides now. If Limited Atonement is not mentioned as a foremost part of the Gospel given to the Corinthians, but it is part of your Gospel; then this shows that Saint Paul's Gospel presentation is also the Gospel...

Later...

Who is Christ that died for sins ? Exactly whose sins ? Paul said Our sins, who is the Our sins in Pauls mind or from scripture ? Come on wise guy ?1 Cor 15:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What scriptures is Paul talking about ?

 

[Hey You!]

You pretty much have to add the disclaimer to the Gospel if Limited Atonement is true. If you proclaim the 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel to the general public, you don’t know who is elect and who is non-elect. You are lying to the non-elect. Christ did not die for their sins. The Gospel is a lie, and they should not believe it.

Limited Atonement is True; it's just not the Gospel as @brightfame52 claims. Limited Atonement is the Meat, the Gospel is the Milk. It's wrong to mix Meat with Milk; and this is what he wants to do. Saint Paul said the foremost parts of the Gospel are that, "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...". This is the Milk, right? So do me a favor; always point out 1 Cor 15 to him, that this is foremost. Ask him, how can Limited Atonement be FOREMOST?? When he finally says it isn't foremost, you can then say to him that Saint Paul thought that the Milk was enough to Believe unto Salvation...

The problem is, he's interpreting the 'us' in the Passage as the Church. He can be right, or He can be wrong. Jesus Kept the Commandment to Love his Neighbor. Who was his Neighbor? All Mankind is his Neighbor. How are All his Neighbor? Because Jesus is the Second Adam. Jesus bought the World, Even False prophets; he became their King. All are his Neighbor. For God (Jesus) so loved the world...

 

[brightfame52]

@Hey You!

Limited Atonement is True; it's just not the Gospel as @brightfame52 claims.

Yes it is the Gospel, Part of it, you must be specific and truthful about who Christ died for.

 

[Lambano]

Limited Atonement is True; it's just not the Gospel as @brightfame52 claims.

Not only is Limited Atonement not the Gospel, Limited Atonement would preclude us from faithfully “Going into all the world and preaching the Gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). Paul’s 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel proclamation as stated presumes Christ died for the sins of whoever hears it.

 

[Hey You!]

Limited Atonement is True; it's just not the Gospel as @brightfame52 claims. Limited Atonement is the Meat, the Gospel is the Milk. It's wrong to mix Meat with Milk; and this is what he wants to do. Saint Paul said the foremost parts of the Gospel are that, "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...". This is the Milk, right? So do me a favor; always point out 1 Cor 15 to him, that this is foremost. Ask him, how can Limited Atonement be FOREMOST?? When he finally says it isn't foremost, you can then say to him that Saint Paul thought that the Milk was enough to Believe unto Salvation...

The problem is, he's interpreting the 'us' in the Passage as the Church. He can be right, or He can be wrong. Jesus Kept the Commandment to Love his Neighbor. Who was his Neighbor? All Mankind is his Neighbor. How are All his Neighbor? Because Jesus is the Second Adam. Jesus bought the World, Even False prophets; he became their King. All are his Neighbor. For God (Jesus) so loved the world...

The Golgatha Purchase ~ by ReverendRV * October 27

2nd Peter 2:1 KJV; But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I’ve recently been debating with an Atheist who uses Slavery as a reason to NOT believe in the God of the Bible. I told him about the Voluntary Servitude the Bible endorses, but he insists on debating about God endorsing Involuntary Servitude; citing Leviticus 25. I said, “I see what you are saying; you're drawing a distinction between the acceptable Servitude of a Jew to a Jew, and the unacceptable Slavery of Gentiles to a Jew. May I suggest that these Verses are a Type for the New Testament; If Israel were not permitted to buy people, then Peter couldn’t have said Jesus bought the Heretics.” The Lord Jesus Christ couldn’t have Purchased the World, if it were not legal for Jews to purchase Gentiles; and be their Sovereign…

If it were illegal for Jews to own Slaves, the Jewish Jesus Christ wouldn't have been able to buy the World from Satan; who gained Dominion from Adam, through the Fall. It is like the Louisiana Purchase; Dominion over the Land and the People was purchased. ~ But you Object, “What’s all this Slavery guff? I’ve never been a Slave”. When you Sin, you’re a Slave to Sin and Satan; have you ever told a Lie? What do YOU call people who Lie to you? If you’ve ever found yourself compelled to tell a Lie and you couldn’t help yourself, you are a Slave to Sin and Satan; or you were. You’re still a Slave to Sin but now you are Christ’s Slave as he paid for his Kingdom with his Blood. Your Lies used to deliver you out of trouble but now that you have a new Master, they bring you under his Judgment. As God Incarnate, the Son of God owns you; but through the 'Golgatha Purchase', the Human Jesus Christ bought All of Humanity. ~ If the Bible is true, then you are the Slave of Christ; awaiting either swift destruction; or Forgiveness of Sin...

Forgiveness of Sins is found only in one Name under heaven. ~ For God so loved the World he gave us his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not swiftly perish, but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ bore the Sin of the world while dying on a Cross, to pay the Death Penalty God requires for our Trespasses and Sins; but he arose from the Grave to prepare a place for us in Heaven to be with him. We’re Saved by the Gracious Forgiveness of God, through Faith in Jesus Christ and what HE'S done for us; instead of anything we could ever do for ourselves. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God, and become his Voluntary Servant at a Bible loving Church. ~ Sinners are Involuntary Servants of Jesus Christ, as they choose their Sin over their Righteous Master; remaining Voluntary Slaves to Sin…

1st Corinthians 7:22-23; KJV; For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

 

[Runningman]

Lol, how does it feel being deceived ? And what is debate ? Is it answering all your questions and interpreting all the verses you can muster up ?

I've been a good sport and have afforded you every opportunity to prove your beliefs using the Bible. At the beginning I even considered if I wanted to believe in limited atonement and looked for reasons to because I've never studied it. The more I kept studying, the more I realized it's just a bunch of BS not found in scripture.

What really galvanized me from being a fence sitter was when you said "If you don't believe in limited atonement you are not saved" which is definitely not what anyone said in the Bible. I suspect you have good intentions, but you're going about it the wrong way because you seem to think what you're saying is unquestionable, infallible, not up for debate, etc. but many have raised many valid points that you seem unwilling or unable to account for.

 

[brightfame52]

All the scripture, every chapter, every verse, every statement, every type and picture of redemption and atonement given in Gods word, Old Testament and New, limits the death of Christ it to a specific people.

Eph 5:25-32

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Particular atonement is plain here:

Christ loved only His Church, He gave Himself only for His Church,

By His death for His Church He sanctifies His Church, He died with this specific People in sight.

 

[brightfame52]

I've been a good sport and have afforded you every opportunity to prove your beliefs using the Bible. At the beginning I even considered if I wanted to believe in limited atonement and looked for reasons to because I've never studied it. The more I kept studying, the more I realized it's just a bunch of BS not found in scripture.

What really galvanized me from being a fence sitter was when you said "If you don't believe in limited atonement you are not saved" which is definitely not what anyone said in the Bible. I suspect you have good intentions, but you're going about it the wrong way because you seem to think what you're saying is unquestionable, infallible, not up for debate, etc. but many have raised many valid points that you seem unwilling or unable to account for.

May God have mercy on you in your deception

 

[brightfame52]

Not only is Limited Atonement not the Gospel, Limited Atonement would preclude us from faithfully “Going into all the world and preaching the Gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). Paul’s 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel proclamation as stated presumes Christ died for the sins of whoever hears it.

In 1 Cor 15 Paul was writing those statements to a particular people, not all mankind. And for Mark 16:15 yes the Gospel which includes limited particular atonement should be preached to every creature as a witness of truth Matt 24:14

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[shepherdsword]

In the New Testament, the definition of "all" is contextual. To see how it works, let me give an everyday example.

Suppose a family has a bowl of oranges sitting on the kitchen counter, and they have another bag of oranges sitting in the pantry. After the family returns from a two week vacation mother says, "Oh my, all of the oranges are covered with mold." In this example, her usage of "all" is limited to those oranges sitting on the counter. She hasn't yet looked at the oranges sitting in the pantry.

The New Testament uses the term this way also. Consider the following verse, where Paul qualifies his statement about "all men" with a word about believers.

1 Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.​

Many passages referring to "all men" suggest inclusion, as if to say, "There is not a social group left out." In those cases, the term "all" doesn't mean "each and every individual" it means each and every subgroup of humanity." For instance,

1 Timothy 2:1-3 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." ​

In this passage, Paul makes a clear and direct appeal regarding the importance of praying for those in positions of power, including kings and all who hold authority. He seems to be urging his readers to ensure that no one is excluded from their prayers, even those they may not personally admire or who may have harsh or unjust tendencies. It’s as though he is saying, "Regardless of your feelings toward them—perhaps you find them to be unkind or oppressive—offer up your prayers for them. Remember, God has a profound desire for every individual to come to a true understanding of the faith, which includes even those who lead nations and exert influence over society." This call to prayer highlights the idea of compassion and the hope that everyone, including political leaders, can find their way to the truth.

Sounds like a contrived way to avoid admitting that the gospel is for all men....a concept that is fortified all through scripture.

 

[shepherdsword]

I know what all means. Matt 1:21 just add all, as to say Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save[all] his people from their sins.

His People are also His seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

If you are not careful you corrupt the word all in its biblical meaning.

Be careful that you don't corrupt the gospel by claiming it isn't for all. Although only those that believe it will reap the benefit.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sounds like a contrived way to avoid admitting that the gospel is for all men....a concept that is fortified all through scripture.

The NT use of the term "all" is true. And you don't need to take my word. You can look it up yourself.

It depends on what you mean by "for all men." The gospel is preached to all men. That is certain. But only a tiny fraction of men (and women) believe the gospel and persevere in belief. Jesus illustrated this concept in his parable of the soils.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Be careful that you don't corrupt the gospel by claiming it isn't for all. Although only those that believe it will reap the benefit.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The New Testament answers the question as to why some believe the gospel unto salvation while others don't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not only is Limited Atonement not the Gospel, Limited Atonement would preclude us from faithfully “Going into all the world and preaching the Gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). Paul’s 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel proclamation as stated presumes Christ died for the sins of whoever hears it.

What if they hear it, but don't believe it? What if they believe it but fall away?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I've been a good sport and have afforded you every opportunity to prove your beliefs using the Bible. At the beginning I even considered if I wanted to believe in limited atonement and looked for reasons to because I've never studied it. The more I kept studying, the more I realized it's just a bunch of BS not found in scripture.

What really galvanized me from being a fence sitter was when you said "If you don't believe in limited atonement you are not saved" which is definitely not what anyone said in the Bible. I suspect you have good intentions, but you're going about it the wrong way because you seem to think what you're saying is unquestionable, infallible, not up for debate, etc. but many have raised many valid points that you seem unwilling or unable to account for.

Where in the Bible does it say that the atonement is universally applicable? Doesn't faith and belief enter into it? And what if faith doesn't endure to the end? What then?

 

[shepherdsword]

The New Testament answers the question as to why some believe the gospel unto salvation while others don't.

Yes it does...the Father only chose who He foreknew would believe. That doesn't eliminate the fact that it is offered to all.