Limited atonement !

[brightfame52]

How?

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance unto life.

Because you deceived, thats how

 

[brightfame52]

Oh, so you are here to ignore the obvious...

Where is it to you, in Saint Paul's 1 Cor 15 summation of what we are Saved by?

Im here witnessing to the truth of limited effectual atonement as in post 560

 

[brightfame52]

Over against the heresy of Arminianism our Reformed Fathers defended the Scriptural doctrine of Particular Atonement, that is, that the death of Christ was the substitutionary atonement for the sins of His people, the elect, those given Him of the Father before the foundation of the world. That atoning death is efficacious, i.e., has the quality of being effective, produces the intended effect. For that death is of infinite value, making complete and perfect satisfaction for sin, since it was the death of the eternal, only begotten Son of God in our human nature. The doctrine of the particular atonement is therefore of central significance. For that atonement roots in the sovereign, eternal counsel, and gracious will and purpose of God. It extends to all the elect of all tribes, kindreds and nations of all ages, whereby they receive the benefits of the atonement and are led to final, complete salvation.https://sb.rfpa.org/particular-atonement-and-general-preaching/

 

[David Lamb]

Only Catholics believe that Adam was good before the so-called fall.

Not so. Genesis tells us that when God had finished creating:

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

I am not a Roman Catholic, and I believe that Adam was good before the Fall. If he was already evil before the Fall, what was the Fall? And how could God have pronounced everything that He had made (including Adam) "very good?"

But Paul argues that Adam was no different than we are.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

But Paul is talking about Adam after the Fall. Death didn't reign before the Fall. God said (before the Fall):

“"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."” (Ge 2:17 NKJV)

 

[brightfame52]

Not so. Genesis tells us that when God had finished creating:

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

I am not a Roman Catholic, and I believe that Adam was good before the Fall. If he was already evil before the Fall, what was the Fall? And how could God have pronounced everything that He had made (including Adam) "very good?"

But Paul is talking about Adam after the Fall. Death didn't reign before the Fall. God said (before the Fall):

“"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."” (Ge 2:17 NKJV)

Adam was good as a natural man could be in the beginning, however it was only a mutable creature righteousness, and far below the righteousness of Christ that Christ worked out and provides to His elect, which is the very Righteousness of God, and this righteousness is an everlasting righteousness Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Hey You!]

Im here witnessing to the truth of limited effectual atonement as in post 560

Limited Atonement is true; but Saint Paul doesn't list it as of foremost importance as what he originally preached to them. It is not THE Gospel...

 

[Ritajanice]

Genesis 1:27

King James Version

​

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Lambano]

Limited Atonement is true; but Saint Paul doesn't list it as of foremost importance as what he originally preached to them. It is not THE Gospel...

I ran it past Legal, and they said we need to add a disclaimer when we proclaim Paul's gospel from 1 Corinthians 15:1-5:

"3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins* according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."

* Christ may or may not have died for YOUR sins.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Which is why the Church, the Body of Christ, who is the Head and is guided by the Holy Spirit. The teachings of the Apostles have been guarded now for 2000 years. That is also what scripture says.

That is not true. First, the New Testament rejects the concept of the so-called "Church" institution, which has belief-authority over anyone. Second, Jesus is the head of the body of Christ, not the Pope. Finally, all believers have access to the scriptures and are guided by the Holy Spirit.

He was good before he sinned, he was neither mortal nor immortal. He could attain either one.

We have no scriptural evidence that Adam was good before he sinned. In fact, his sin proved that he wasn't good.

He has the power of death.

That is not true. Paul argues that Satan has the power to manipulate us with our fear of death, which is no longer an issue for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

God permitted him to introduce death through the disobedience of Adam.

God introduced physical death into his creation from the beginning.

Christ restored the world to life again at His resurrection when He defeated Satan and death.

That is not true. The last enemy is death, and Jesus will defeat death at our resurrection.

You proved it according to your personal interpretation. Which is fine for you. But not for me. If it has not been believed from the beginning and by all everywhere it is not the Truth.

What you perceive may not be the entire reality. This is a fundamental aspect of propaganda, where an orchestrated effort seeks to convince the masses that a particular belief or opinion is universally held. In truth, only a small group of individuals may genuinely subscribe to this idea, while the majority remain unconvinced or indifferent. This manipulation shapes societal perceptions, creating an illusion of consensus that obscures the diversity of thought that actually exists.

True, but that is not what sola scriptura means. Sola scriptura is the doctrine of Protestants who develop their own interpretations from scripture, adding to scripture. This is why there are many hundreds of theories by these individuals and as many denominations.
That is hardly the work of the Holy Spirit. It is the devil leading these people astray. Protestants are becoming more divided by the year.

Propaganda.

 

[Rightglory]

That is not true. First, the New Testament rejects the concept of the so-called "Church" institution, which has belief-authority over anyone. Second, Jesus is the head of the body of Christ, not the Pope. Finally, all believers have access to the scriptures and are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture says it is true. The authority lies in the Body over which Christ rules and the Holy Spirit guides and protects. We don't have a Pope for that reason. The Councils are not the last word either. It is the membership of the Body which is led by the Holy Spirit, just as it was in Acts 2 at the council of Jerusalem. All the Churches Paul and other disciples established were of the same Body, I Tim 3:15 is very clear.
I understand your predicament. You need to rationalize your position which is the same position that Luther needed to do establishing this mythical idea of a church when he was excommunicated. Even though by that time the RC had left centuries before.

We have no scriptural evidence that Adam was good before he sinned. In fact, his sin proved that he wasn't good.

It is clearly there. The fact that he sinned and fell proves he was good before. His judgement also very clear, which was death, dust to dust.
Again, you need to rationalize it out of existence because you developed a new interpretation to fit your theory.

That is not true. Paul argues that Satan has the power to manipulate us with our fear of death, which is no longer an issue for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

That is because Christ defeated death. Heb 2:14 is also very clear who holds the power of death. If God held power of death why would Christ be needed to defeat death? Your theory is full of holes.

God introduced physical death into his creation from the beginning.

Which is part of your theory. Adam could not have been condemned to death, if he was already mortal.

That is not true. The last enemy is death, and Jesus will defeat death at our resurrection.

Death has been defeated which is why we have the hope of eternal life. Man dies once to rid our mortal bodies of sin. Heb 9:27, I Cor 15:56-57, we will be raised to immortality, and incorruptibility.

What you perceive may not be the entire reality. This is a fundamental aspect of propaganda, where an orchestrated effort seeks to convince the masses that a particular belief or opinion is universally held. In truth, only a small group of individuals may genuinely subscribe to this idea, while the majority remain unconvinced or indifferent. This manipulation shapes societal perceptions, creating an illusion of consensus that obscures the diversity of thought
of thought that actually exists.

Propaganda.

If there is any propaganda it the Protestant milieu that claims the Holy Spirit is the one who gives everyone all these false teaching, new innovative ideas. The Holy Spirit has not given any more revelation, that is additions to the Gospel from the beginning, Jude 3. Diversity of thought. That is a rich one. The purpose of the Holy Spirit in protecting the once given Truth is for unity of faith, not diversity of thought.
I will close this discussion. You can reply if you want.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. Genesis tells us that when God had finished creating:

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

I am not a Roman Catholic, and I believe that Adam was good before the Fall. If he was already evil before the Fall, what was the Fall? And how could God have pronounced everything that He had made (including Adam) "very good?"

The word "good" can mean one of many different ideas. In the context of Genesis, "good" means "fitting." Everything he made fitted for the story he wanted to tell through his creation. The creation is a story of redemption and salvation, with Jesus as the central figure.

There was no "fall" of mankind, as some suppose. Perhaps Adam fell to his destruction; we don't know because we haven't seen the end of the story.

But Paul is talking about Adam after the Fall. Death didn't reign before the Fall. God said (before the Fall):

“"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."” (Ge 2:17 NKJV)

I quibble with the translation "you shall surely die." I think God meant to say, "in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die." In this context, the second sense of "die" is more akin to condemnation. Paul talks about how we were dead in our transgressions, meaning that we were under the penalty of death while we lived in transgression. Jesus tells his disciples that even if his disciples should die, they shall live.

 

[Runningman]

Because you deceived, thats how

For someone who seems so zealous to promote your cult's version of salvation, you have done an absolutely fantastic job of repulsing everyone to it. How does it feel to take the stage and get booed out?

You started a debate on it and seem unwilling to engage in actual debate. You've just been pasting from your creed book, slapping low-effort one liners on the forum, and have been generally unavailable except for very quick sessions.

Did you think you would come here and find some eager students ready to convert from Christianity to Calvinism? Forums are notorious for not having my low hanging fruit. People have already read the Bible, have already debated everything, already chose their sides, etc. I really have no idea what you think you're doing.

 

[brightfame52]

Limited Atonement is true; but Saint Paul doesn't list it as of foremost importance as what he originally preached to them. It is not THE Gospel...

Its a Gospel Doctrine, there is no Gospel without it.

 

[brightfame52]

For someone who seems so zealous to promote your cult's version of salvation, you have done an absolutely fantastic job of repulsing everyone to it. How does it feel to take the stage and get booed out?

You started a debate on it and seem unwilling to engage in actual debate. You've just been pasting from your creed book, slapping low-effort one liners on the forum, and have been generally unavailable except for very quick sessions.

Did you think you would come here and find some eager students ready to convert from Christianity to Calvinism? Forums are notorious for not having my low hanging fruit. People have already read the Bible, have already debated everything, already chose their sides, etc. I really have no idea what you think you're doing.

Lol, how does it feel being deceived ? And what is debate ? Is it answering all your questions and interpreting all the verses you can muster up ?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Augustine is considered the founder of the Roman Catholic Church with his theology. His theology is heavily Platonic with a heavy leaning on Manichaeism. Origin another neo-Platonist also developed universalism. All these false teachings were condemned by the Orthodox Church. What is amazing is the both Calvin and Luther adopted a lot from Augustine, such as Original Sin, Satisfaction theory of atonement. They are still very prominent is most Protestant denominations even today.

Correction:
Jesus Christ is considered the founder of the Catholic Church - not Augustine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Limited Atonement is true; but Saint Paul doesn't list it as of foremost importance as what he originally preached to them. It is not THE Gospel...

Its a Gospel Doctrine, there is no Gospel without it.

Limited Atonement is a heresy - not a Biblical doctrine.

I John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

I Tim. 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL

II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance

 

[Rightglory]

Correction:
Jesus Christ is considered the founder of the Catholic Church - not Augustine.

Correction accepted, He is regarded as the founder of most of their theology after the fall of Rome and especially after the split that has yet to be resolved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Please google "ALL"

In the New Testament, the definition of "all" is contextual. To see how it works, let me give an everyday example.

Suppose a family has a bowl of oranges sitting on the kitchen counter, and they have another bag of oranges sitting in the pantry. After the family returns from a two week vacation mother says, "Oh my, all of the oranges are covered with mold." In this example, her usage of "all" is limited to those oranges sitting on the counter. She hasn't yet looked at the oranges sitting in the pantry.

The New Testament uses the term this way also. Consider the following verse, where Paul qualifies his statement about "all men" with a word about believers.

1 Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.​

Many passages referring to "all men" suggest inclusion, as if to say, "There is not a social group left out." In those cases, the term "all" doesn't mean "each and every individual" it means each and every subgroup of humanity." For instance,

1 Timothy 2:1-3 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." ​

In this passage, Paul makes a clear and direct appeal regarding the importance of praying for those in positions of power, including kings and all who hold authority. He seems to be urging his readers to ensure that no one is excluded from their prayers, even those they may not personally admire or who may have harsh or unjust tendencies. It’s as though he is saying, "Regardless of your feelings toward them—perhaps you find them to be unkind or oppressive—offer up your prayers for them. Remember, God has a profound desire for every individual to come to a true understanding of the faith, which includes even those who lead nations and exert influence over society." This call to prayer highlights the idea of compassion and the hope that everyone, including political leaders, can find their way to the truth.

 

[Hey You!]

I ran it past Legal, and they said we need to add a disclaimer when we proclaim Paul's gospel from 1 Corinthians 15:1-5:

"3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins* according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."

* Christ may or may not have died for YOUR sins.

No, no; never add anything to the Bible...

 

[brightfame52]

@BreadOfLife

Limited Atonement is a heresy - not a Biblical doctrine.

Its too bad you feel that way about the Gospel, but hey, its Gods will at this point