Limited atonement !

[Lambano]

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 10

And how does one become part of "his people"?

And this is where we disagree on the role of trust and whether humans have the ability within themselves to trust anybody, including Jesus. And we always will disagree on that.

 

[shepherdsword]

All limited to the elect

Please google "ALL"

 

[Lambano]

I think I am beginning to see what your issue is. It's that you just that you using a non sequitur or begging the question my making an assumption that is not stated in scripture to bridge the gap between your philosophy on salvation and what Scripture explicitly states.

I think the real issue is that the OP sees Christ's death as having real power to save in itself, rather than being a symbol of a greater reality. If Christ died "not just for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world", and the whole world is not saved, then either Christ's death does not have real power in itself to save, or "the whole world" needs to be redefined, and 1 John 2:1-2 doesn't say what it explicitly says. The OP has chosen the latter path.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

Applying the same principle to Christ's atonement, if the ancient Yom Kippur ritual points to Christ, then Christ's atoning death points to sanctification (v10), perfection (v14), and forgiveness (v18). But nobody wants to go deeper and address the meaning of the symbols.

 

[Lambano]

But nobody wants to go deeper and address the meaning of the symbols.

Or address the question of how killing a man REALLY washes away sins? Or why God tells us to forgive without repayment, but God needs to kill someone else before forgiving us? Or how killing an innocent man in the place of a guilty one can possibly be considered "justice"? We've blindly accepted all these ancient atonement-related concepts, and never stop to say, "Hey, wait a minute..."

 

[Lambano]

Applying the same principle to Christ's atonement, if the ancient Yom Kippur ritual points to Christ, then Christ's atoning death points to sanctification (v10), perfection (v14), and forgiveness (v18). But nobody wants to go deeper and address the meaning of the symbols.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. - Galatians 2:20

Symbols. When we identify ourselves with Christ by faith, His death symbolizes our death, and our life symbolizes His life.

 

[Ritajanice]

Only when my spirit became Born Again, was I then crucified with Christ....we all understand the word so very differently.

I was no longer, I had become a new creation in Christ....I live to glorify the Father ....me died, the moment Spirit gave birth to spirit.......taken the Lord 33 years to get my head/ understanding round that.

 

[brightfame52]

@Runningman

The issue is that Matthew 1:21 does not say that Jesus' death was only for "his people" and not for all individuals.

Faith isnt based upon what scripture doesnt say, but on what it actually says. Who does it say He will save in Matt 1:21

 

[CadyandZoe]

One knock out blow after another. Who believes this stuff besides you?

Only Catholics believe that Adam was good before the so-called fall. But Paul argues that Adam was no different than we are.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We embody the concept of "the one who was to come." From Adam to Moses, death held dominion over humanity, as every individual during that period mirrored Adam’s nature. Adam stands as the archetype, the foundational example that shapes the identity and experiences of all who follow after him.

As I stated, it has never been understood by the Church from the beginning.

From its inception, the Catholic Church has interpreted the New Testament through a Greek philosophical lens, particularly the concept of dualism. This approach has led to a blending of Biblical teachings with Platonic ideas, resulting in a unique theological framework. As a consequence, many of the church's doctrines may carry the influence of Greek philosophy, which can obscure the original messages of the scriptures. It is essential for Christians to develop an awareness of these philosophical underpinnings in order to discern which aspects of doctrine may deviate from the core teachings of the Bible.

For instance, the doctrine of dualism teaches that God could never create anything that was sinful, unholy, or imperfect. Therefore, according to Dualism, God created a perfect Adam. It was Adam who fell away from God of his own free will. But the idea that God could never create imperfection comes from Greek dualism, not the Biblical text. The doctrines of the fall and original sin deviate from the core teaching of the Bible.

He sure does.
Adam sinned and the judgement upon him was physical death. But you don't believe that. It was that death that caused God's creation to be dissolved, dust to dust.

That isn't true. Paul argues that the creation was subject to futility from the very beginning.

Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

It was God, not Adam, who subjected creation to futility—what we currently call entropy. Death is a natural part of this creation. God knew that Adam was going to die eventually, not because of sin but because of entropy. This is why God said, "Dying, you shall die."

That applies to the sacrifice for sin, but that was a secondary. Defeating death was primary. Without defeating death, the sacrifice is moot.

Jesus has not defeated death yet. Death is the final enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26

Jesus didn't need sola scriptura.

He practiced sola scriptura (John 10). He often argued from the scriptures, and Jesus claimed that the scriptures couldn't be broken. We should follow his example.

You do have a different understanding of scripture. Most of what you have stated I have not even heard from most Protestants on any forum I have been on.

Some of us are sensitive and aware of the Platonic influences undergirding so-called orthodox teaching. Most Protestants remain unaware of this syncretic alloy of Christ and Plato, while others are beginning to discover our error and filter out everything that deviates from Biblical teaching.

 

[brightfame52]

@Lambano

And how does one become part of "his people"?

The Fathers choice before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Runningman]

I think the real issue is that the OP sees Christ's death as having real power to save in itself, rather than being a symbol of a greater reality. If Christ died "not just for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world", and the whole world is not saved, then either Christ's death does not have real power in itself to save, or "the whole world" needs to be redefined, and 1 John 2:1-2 doesn't say what it explicitly says. The OP has chosen the latter path.



Applying the same principle to Christ's atonement, if the ancient Yom Kippur ritual points to Christ, then Christ's atoning death points to sanctification (v10), perfection (v14), and forgiveness (v18). But nobody wants to go deeper and address the meaning of the symbols.

Makes sense. I believe that Jesus' atoning sin sacrifice is available for the world, but not necessarily accessed by all. I believe this is a satisfactory explanation of Jesus' sacrifice that doesn't necessitate universal salvation. There are probably some other factors influencing the Reformed theologian such as the idea that free will is non-existent. If free will is non-existent then limited atonement would be accurate. That's a totally different discussion that I think this thread hasn't touched on yet.

 

[brightfame52]

Please google "ALL"

I know what all means. Matt 1:21 just add all, as to say Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save[all] his people from their sins.

His People are also His seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

If you are not careful you corrupt the word all in its biblical meaning.

 

[brightfame52]

@Runningman

Makes sense. I believe that Jesus' atoning sin sacrifice is available for the world, but not necessarily accessed by all.

Then you believe something not taught in scripture

 

[Rightglory]

Only Catholics believe that Adam was good before the so-called fall. But Paul argues that Adam was no different than we are.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We embody the concept of "the one who was to come." From Adam to Moses, death held dominion over humanity, as every individual during that period mirrored Adam’s nature. Adam stands as the archetype, the foundational example that shapes the identity and experiences of all who follow after him.

All Churches prior to the Reformation believe that Adam was created good. He surely was not evil as you state, nor was he created mortal. He became mortal as a consequence of the condemnation given in Gen 3:19. Only in several forms of Protestants do some denominations believe Adam was created mortal. We inherited his mortal nature, a fallen nature which is why we sin. Adam had the capability to not sin.

F rom its inception, the Catholic Church has interpreted the New Testament through a Greek philosophical lens, particularly the concept of dualism. This approach has led to a blending of Biblical teachings with Platonic ideas, resulting in a unique theological framework. As a consequence, many of the church's doctrines may carry the influence of Greek philosophy, which can obscure the original messages of the scriptures. It is essential for Christians to develop an awareness of these philosophical underpinnings in order to discern which aspects of doctrine may deviate from the core teachings of the Bible.

Augustine is considered the founder of the Roman Catholic Church with his theology. His theology is heavily Platonic with a heavy leaning on Manichaeism. Origin another neo-Platonist also developed universalism. All these false teachings were condemned by the Orthodox Church. What is amazing is the both Calvin and Luther adopted a lot from Augustine, such as Original Sin, Satisfaction theory of atonement. They are still very prominent is most Protestant denominations even today.

For instance, the doctrine of dualism teaches that God could never create anything that was sinful, unholy, or imperfect. Therefore, according to Dualism, God created a perfect Adam. It was Adam who fell away from God of his own free will. But the idea that God could never create imperfection comes from Greek dualism, not the Biblical text. The doctrines of the fall and original sin deviate from the core teaching of the Bible.

Which is also false as well and is not accepted by the Orthodox and after the fall of Rome when the Church of Rome began to depart from the unified Gospel of the Church, did they begin to be influenced by individual men such as Augustine, Francis Assissi, Anselm, and others..

That isn't true. Paul argues that the creation was subject to futility from the very beginning.

Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

It was God, not Adam, who subjected creation to futility—what we currently call entropy. Death is a natural part of this creation. God knew that Adam was going to die eventually, not because of sin but because of entropy. This is why God said, "Dying, you shall die."

Actually it was Satan who subjected creation to futility. God permitted both Adam and the world to fall. Adam was made from the earth when he fell so did the world. God did not cause death. This is the primary reason Christ needed to become man, assume our fallen mortal nature so that by His death He could defeat death, the power of Satan. It is why He is called the Savior of the World.
Man, the world, and Christ's human nature are all from the dust of the earth. We are all consubstantial with one another.
God created the world and called it good. This included man.

Jesus has not defeated death yet. Death is the final enemy. 1 Corinthians 15:26

No, He defeated it when He arose from the Grave. That was our human nature that was given life. Christ does not need to die again in order to raise us in the last day. He bound Satan and freed those who Satan held in bondage when Christ descended into Hades. Man needed to die once so that sin would die with our mortal nature. All will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility.

He practiced sola scriptura (John 10). He often argued from the scriptures, and Jesus claimed that the scriptures couldn't be broken. We should follow his example.

That is not sola scriptura. You should follow the idea that scripture should not be broken.

Some of us are sensitive and aware of the Platonic influences undergirding so-called orthodox teaching. Most Protestants remain unaware of this syncretic alloy of Christ and Plato, while others are beginning to discover our error and filter out everything that deviates from Biblical teaching.

What a lot of Protestants claim from so-called Church Fathers usually deal with all the false teachings -teacher of the early Church. The early Church declared these teachings heresy. I could list them for you but there are about 20, then several more can be added with the many new innovations that the Roman Catholics added. In every single case they were devised by individual men, the first sola scripturist,
and every one was heretical. Man is not the guardian of the Gospel. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, working through His Body, His Church, the pillar and ground of Truth.
Then you have Protestantism. Beginning with Luther, Calvin, Zwingli it grows today hundreds of denominations all started by a single individual mostly, who pushes his new innovative teaching. Hardly the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All Churches prior to the Reformation believe that Adam was created good.

What matters to me is what the Bible says.

Adam had the capability to not sin.

Of course. But Adam DID sin, proving he was neither good nor perfect.

Actually it was Satan who subjected creation to futility.

Satan doesn't have the ability to change creation in that way.

God created the world and called it good. This included man.

He called a lot of things good other than man. So "good" in that context doesn't refer to morality.

No, He defeated it when He arose from the Grave.

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

That is not sola scriptura. You should follow the idea that scripture should not be broken.

Jesus never appealed to any authority other than the Father and the scriptures.

 

[Hey You!]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep. Jn 10

1 Corinthians 15 1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.



No Limited Atonement listed in the Gospel as being of first importance which we take our Stand...

 

[brightfame52]

1 Corinthians 15 1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.



No Limited Atonement listed in the Gospel as being of first importance which we take our Stand...

Its not there to you, but its a vital truth of the Gospel

 

[Rightglory]

What matters to me is what the Bible says.

Which is why the Church, the Body of Christ, who is the Head and is guided by the Holy Spirit. The teachings of the Apostles have been guarded now for 2000 years. That is also what scripture says.

Of course. But Adam DID sin, proving he was neither good nor perfect.

He was good before he sinned, he was neither mortal nor immortal. He could attain either one.

Satan doesn't have the ability to change creation in that way.

He has the power of death. God permitted him to introduce death through the disobedience of Adam.. Christ restored the world to life again at His resurrection when He defeated Satan and death. This is why there will be a new heaven and new earth. He will make all things new.

He called a lot of things good other than man. So "good" in that context doesn't refer to morality.

Correct, Adam was good before he sinned. He was neither mortal or immortal.

I proved this wrong according to the scripture.

You proved it according to your personal interpretation. Which is fine for you. But not for me. If it has not been believed from the beginning and by all everywhere it is not the Truth.

Jesus never appealed to any authority other than the Father and the scriptures.

True, but that is not what sola scriptura means. Sola scriptura is the doctrine of Protestants who develop their own interpretations from scripture, adding to scripture. This is why there are many hundreds of theories by these individuals and as many denominations.
That is hardly the work of the Holy Spirit. It is the devil leading these people astray. Protestants are becoming more divided by the year.

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman



Then you believe something not taught in scripture

How?

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance unto life.

 

[Hey You!]

Its not there to you, but its a vital truth of the Gospel

Oh, so you are here to ignore the obvious...

Where is it to you, in Saint Paul's 1 Cor 15 summation of what we are Saved by?

 

[brightfame52]

Christians believe in Limited Atonement. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep died for and redeemed God’s elect, all the elect, and only the elect. He shed his blood for those who are actually saved by his blood. Now in some sense we all believe in a limited atonement for instance:

The arminian believes that the atonement is limited in power and efficacy, that its power and efficacy is limited by the will, and choice, and decision of man, that man by his act of faith makes the blood of Christ effectual to himself.
Christians believe that our Lord’s atonement is limited not in merit, power, and efficacy (There is no limit to that!), but in its purpose, in its intention, in its design, in its scope. Christ died for God’s elect, made reconciliation/propitiation for God’s elect redeemed God’s elect, obtained eternal salvation for God’s elect, all God’s elect, and only God’s elect or sheep! 10