Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[justbyfaith]

On the CONTRARY - I am reading them IN CONTEXT with the rest of Scripture and no cherry-picking them as YOU do.

Nope. You are cherry-picking. ;)

That is complete hogwash and NOT what the Bible teaches.
Jesus said that is you want to be HIS disciple - you must pick up your cross DAILY and follow Him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23).

Scripture ALSO teaches that we must . . .

- Be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, Mark 6:16, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

- DO works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

- Obey his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)

- DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)

- Suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Sitting on your butt and ignoring Christ will NOT save you.

You are simply cherry-picking verses. ;)

As born again followers of Christ, we have a secure position. HOWEVER, we must remain faithful in order that we do not LOSE that secure position.

How secure is our position if we can lose it? Not very...

 

[justbyfaith]

That's right, you see there's a difference btwn a nonbelievers work vs a believers work. one is trying to enter the kingdom, the other is already in the kingdom, so their works will be evidence of crowns and rewards Jhn 3:3

There is no point trying to convince him...he is just here to argue...he wouldn't see the reality of these matters if it were a snake and it bit him...

Take heed to what the scripture says in Jeremiah 4:3...with breadman you are only sowing among thorns...you would be wise to do what it says in Titus 3:10-11 and Romans 16:17.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually you can.

There's two ways I like to properly look at scripture..

1. Through context
2. Through words

Take Luke 8:13 for example. Luke uses the word "believe" (as in believing in vain 1 Cor 15:1-2), but Matthew and Mark use the words "trouble and persecution". Paul also uses the words "trouble and persecution" but in the opposite way. This tells me that Matthew, Mark and Luke are referencing apostates, those who were never born again, those who never had the root of salvation which is Jesus Christ himself and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Luke 8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings.

You’re missing the entire point of Rom. 8 – which corresponds with John 10:28.

NOBODY or NOTHING can take you away from God and MAKEyou lose your salvation. Only YOUcan make that choice – and that’s exactly what it is, a CHOICE.

The verses from Matt., Mark and Luke aren’t speaking of a person who is NOT born again. They are speaking of a person who is born again and falls away. The “no root” spoken of can be a LOT of things, including not making changes to their lives, regularly assembling with the Body, etc.

MANY people come to Christ only to fall away because they don’t follow good practices I their lives because ignorant people like YOU tell them that God will do it all FOR them. NOWHERE does the Gospel teach that all we have to do is “believe”, so sit back and collect your rewards.

The Gospel COMMANDS us to DO the will of the Father, regardless of your phony gospel of“easy-believism” . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's right, you see there's a difference btwn a nonbelievers work vs a believers work. one is trying to enter the kingdom, the other is already in the kingdom, so their works will be evidence of crowns and rewards Jhn 3:3

WRONG.

Works are a REQUIREMENT of faith – not just as after-effect.
James rives this point home in chapter 2 of his Epistle over and over again. They are as must a basic element of faith as 1+1 equals 2. James, undet the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, tells his readers that you CANNOT have true faith without works (James 2:14-26).

Anything less makes you no better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nope. You are cherry-picking. ;)
You are simply cherry-picking verses. ;)
How secure is our position if we can lose it? Not very...

And how does forcing us to stay with Him NOT make God a rapist??

The God of Christianity – of the Bible gives US the choice to love and stay with Him.

The pathetic god YOU’VE invented for yourself is an insecure being who has to create robots to “love” him.

 

[ScottA]

WRONG.

Works are a REQUIREMENT of faith – not just as after-effect.
James rives this point home in chapter 2 of his Epistle over and over again. They are as must a basic element of faith as 1+1 equals 2. James, undet the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, tells his readers that you CANNOT have true faith without works (James 2:14-26).

Anything less makes you no better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19).

You are being petty.

What James said was true, but only if one has the time to produce fruit. Which does not make it a requirement, but a sign. For if a person comes to faith and immediately dies...they are still saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

NOBODY or NOTHING can take you away from God and MAKEyou lose your salvation. Only YOUcan make that choice – and that’s exactly what it is, a CHOICE.

Indeed, it is choice that I make to stay within the fold...and why do I make that choice? Because I understand that the opposite choice means eternal damnation. His for ever fear within me motivates me to stay within the fold...I shall not depart from Him because of it.

Jeremiah 32:38-40, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

James rives this point home in chapter 2 of his Epistle over and over again.

But of course, you are cherry-picking those scriptures. ;)

And how does forcing us to stay with Him NOT make God a rapist??

No one who enters into a marriage relationship with the Lord does so against their will. If someone wanted to leave Him, I suppose that they could; however you are missing an important factor...that He seals us with the Holy Ghost...and the fruit of that Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc. He is living water that satisfies the deepest human need at its most basic level. If anyone, after tasting of this heavenly gift, actually turned away from it, I would question their sanity.

Also, it is not only fear of condemnation that keeps me within the fold, but a deep and abiding love for Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed, it is choice that I make to stay within the fold...and why do I make that choice? Because I understand that the opposite choice means eternal damnation. His for ever fear within me motivates me to stay within the fold...I shall not depart from Him because of it.

Jeremiah 32:38-40, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

But of course, you are cherry-picking those scriptures. ;)

No one who enters into a marriage relationship with the Lord does so against their will. If someone wanted to leave Him, I suppose that they could; however you are missing an important factor...that He seals us with the Holy Ghost...and the fruit of that Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc. He is living water that satisfies the deepest human need at its most basic level. If anyone, after tasting of this heavenly gift, actually turned away from it, I would question their sanity.

Also, it is not only fear of condemnation that keeps me within the fold, but a deep and abiding love for Him.

In Jer. 32, God says that He gives His people the tools so that they MAY always fear Him
He doesn’t say that they always WILL fear Him. There is not ONE verse in ALL of Scripture that states that born again believers will REMAIN that way – unless THEY CHOOSE to. As long as that fear remains in them – they won’t depart from Him.

As for James 2:14-16 – that is NOT cherry-picking because I’ve given you the whole context. Cherry-picking is when you take 1 or 2 verses out of context. I gave you ELEVEN consecutive verses to show the CONTEXT of what James is saying.

Correct. No one who ENTERS a marriage with God does so against their will.
HOWEVER - People can and DO change their minds and hearts – and some leave. That is called DIVORCE.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are being petty.

What James said was true, but only if one has the time to produce fruit. Which does not make it a requirement, but a sign. For if a person comes to faith and immediately dies...they are still saved.

And that – like the Thief on the cross is an EXCEPTION to the rule.
God can and DOES make exceptions.

A little advice for YOU:
Don’t form your doctrines on the exceptions – but on the NORM . . .

 

[ScottA]

And that – like the Thief on the cross is an EXCEPTION to the rule.
God can and DOES make exceptions.

A little advice for YOU:
Don’t form your doctrines on the exceptions – but on the NORM . . .

No...that is not an exception nor doctrine, but clarity, showing the error of doctrine without understanding.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No...that is not an exception nor doctrine, but clarity, showing the error of doctrine without understanding.

No – Jesus CLEARLY states that Baptism is a requirement (Mark 16:16, John 3:5) – yet the Thief on the cross was saved without being baptized with water.

He was an EXCEPTION to the rule and received the Baptism of Desire.

 

[ScottA]

No – Jesus CLEARLY states that Baptism is a requirement (Mark 16:16, John 3:5) – yet the Thief on the cross was saved without being baptized with water.

He was an EXCEPTION to the rule and received the Baptism of Desire.

No...that is an error in your interpretation and again, your lack of understanding: Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (of which there is no "exception.")

 

[BreadOfLife]

No...that is an error in your interpretation and again, your lack of understanding: Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (of which there is no "exception.")

Yes, we are baptized with fire and with the Holy Spirit – but NOT until we are baptized with WATER:

John 3:5
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man is born of WATER and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

1 Pet. 3:21
This WATER prefigures Baptism, which now SAVES YOU—not the removal of dirt from the body but the answer of a good conscience to God—by the resurrection of Jesus

This is what Jesus told Nicodemus.
Just 2 chapters earlier – we see Jesus being baptized. WHAT do we see?? WATER and SPIRIT.
Right after Jesus talks to Nicodemus, he goes with the Apostles to BAPTIZE people.

The first 3 chapters of the Gospel of John are literally DRENCHED in Baptismal Water . . .

 

[ScottA]

Yes, we are baptized with fire and with the Holy Spirit – but NOT until we are baptized with WATER:

John 3:5
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man is born of WATER and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

1 Pet. 3:21
This WATER prefigures Baptism, which now SAVES YOU—not the removal of dirt from the body but the answer of a good conscience to God—by the resurrection of Jesus

This is what Jesus told Nicodemus.
Just 2 chapters earlier – we see Jesus being baptized. WHAT do we see?? WATER and SPIRIT.
Right after Jesus talks to Nicodemus, he goes with the Apostles to BAPTIZE people.

The first 3 chapters of the Gospel of John are literally DRENCHED in Baptismal Water . . .

Again, you error in translation. Tit for tating scripture against scripture doesn't change the truth.

You even quoted Peter explaining that it is not water that saves you, but rather only prefigures what "now saves you"...and you still don't get it.


Hey, it's been fun. Sometime we should do a thread on the difference between "the waters below" and "the waters above."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, you error in translation. Tit for tating scripture against scripture doesn't change the truth.

You even quoted Peter explaining that it is not water that saves you, but rather only prefigures what "now saves you"...and you still don't get it.


Hey, it's been fun. Sometime we should do a thread on the difference between "the waters below" and "the waters above."

And I suppose you believe Jesus was speaking about amniotic fluid in John 3:5 . . .

Besides, Peter was talking about the waters of the FLOOD that prefigured Baptismal water because we are saved through it - just as Noah was saved through the waters of the Flood.

It has been fun . . .

 

[ScottA]

And I suppose you believe Jesus was speaking about amniotic fluid in John 3:5 . . .

Besides, Peter was talking about the waters of the FLOOD that prefigured Baptismal water because we are saved through it - just as Noah was saved through the waters of the Flood.

It has been fun . . .

"Waters below", "waters above." The rest is doctrinal misinterpretation nonsense.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is not ONE verse in ALL of Scripture that states that born again believers will REMAIN that way – unless THEY CHOOSE to.

So a born again believer who falls away (who chooses to leave the fold) is still saved? John 5:24 (kjv) says explicitly that if we hear the words of Jesus and believe on Him who sent Him, we have everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but have passed from death into life.

You have the problem of a born again believer who falls away...because it has been promised to him that he shall not come into condemnation. Therefore, either the recipient of the promise cannot fall away...or else he will not lose his salvation if he does.

I would say to you that according to the doctrine which is according to godliness, John 5:24 (kjv) is the verse that you think doesn't exist...for it shows clearly (at least to me) that the person who believes cannot fall away. I would qualify this by saying that it is the person who is the good soil, in the parable of the sower, who has a heart faith unto righteousness and the enduring unto the end...and not the person who believes (with a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel) only for a while and then falls away...who is the true recipient of the promise that is given in John 5:24.

As for James 2:14-16 – that is NOT cherry-picking because I’ve given you the whole context. Cherry-picking is when you take 1 or 2 verses out of context. I gave you ELEVEN consecutive verses to show the CONTEXT of what James is saying.

Nope. It is cherry-picking. ;)

The verses that I have given you have their context as well (which I do not have to reference the context in order for you to be a Berean and study out how the context gives insight into the meaning of the verses), that does not contradict the message of what I said to you by them.

Of course, if you want to show how the verses I have quoted are contradicted by their immediate or topical context....then at least we will be having a discussion that might bear some fruit in the long run. But as long as you claim that I am cherry-picking verses, I think that you figure that you don't even have to consider what they are saying.

You can start with Romans 4:1-8. Perhaps you could do an exposition on what this passage means to you line-by-line.

 

[justbyfaith]

He doesn’t say that they always WILL fear Him.

Jeremiah 32:38-40, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

The word may in this verse is referring to the cause and effect relationship between having one heart and one way and them fearing Him for ever; it does not denote iffiness to any extent. Because later in the passage, it is said that the (for ever) fear in their hearts means they shall not depart from Him...not iffy in the slightest.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"Waters below", "waters above." The rest is doctrinal misinterpretation nonsense.

If you think water is "unnecessary", then YES, you have misinterpreted, indeed . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The word may in this verse is referring to the cause and effect relationship between having one heart and one way and them fearing Him for ever; it does not denote iffiness to any extent. Because later in the passage, it is said that the (for ever) fear in their hearts means they shall not depart from Him...not iffy in the slightest.

Yes - IF they maintain that fear.
CONTEXT, son . . .