Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin
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I just want to say that people can start out well enough but fall prey to the flesh and carnal interests along the way. That seems to be the pattern with many who are false 'ministers' today. Think it might be going too far to say regarding Luther that the "whole thing" was necessarily "based" on self-interest. But nevertheless we have the words of Jesus who said whether from false motives or true, so long as THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED. And Luther did get the gospel right didn't he, at least in the beginning. Praise God for the reformation that freed souls from captivity to the glaringly false thing that Rome had made of the gospel.
List them gifts-all of them please, don't make a blanket statement or pontificate, name ALL the gifts recorded in Scripture for the edification of the body of Christ Jesus.
If you can't go to the nearest hospital and empty them beds of the cripple, lame and the blind, take Lizbeth with you, and all the other "faith healers"--the more the merrier
Told you yesterday this is not a salvivc issue but you and Lizbeth wants to make it a salvivic issue so list them gifts, ALL of them--and think twice before calling me a twister and a perverter of the holy Scriptures.
The just shall live by faith pappie, not signs, miracles and wonders with heaps of persecutions and hardships.
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Don't misrepresent me sister, list ALL the gifts recorded in Scripture for the edification of the body of Christ AFTER the Apostles.
You are mischaracterizing people here brother.
It doesn't seem that we can define and make a list of "all the gifts".... the Holy Spirit just does as He pleases. I dont' believe the examples written in scripture are exhaustive as such. The word "gift" is just to show it comes freely from God. They are not tightly wrapped items tied up with a bow that we can pick off a shelf. The "wind bloweth where it will". He is God and we are not. Jesus had the Spirit without measure and all the things that He did were not written down....there wouldn't have been enough books to contain it all.
In what context is it written "the wind bloweth where it will?"
Greek Text
The Greek text for John 3:8 is:
“Ἡ ἀνεμος ὅπου θέλει πνέει, καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτῆς ἀκούεις, ἀλλὰ οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει· οὕτως ἔστιν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Πνεύματος.”
Lexical and Grammatical Analysis
Ἡ ἀνεμος (Hē anemos):
Ἡ (hē) is the definite article "the."
ἀνεμος (anemos) means "wind." In Greek, this term can also mean "breath" or "spirit," depending on the context.
ὅπου θέλει (hopou thelei):
ὅπου (hopou) means "wherever" or "where."
θέλει (thelei) is a form of the verb θέλω (thelō), which means "to wish" or "to will." Thus, θέλει means "wishes" or "wants."
πνέει (pneēi):
The verb πνέω (pneō) means "to blow" or "to breathe." In this context, πνέει means "blows."
καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτῆς (kai tēn phōnēn autēs):
καὶ (kai) means "and."
τὴν φωνὴν (tēn phōnēn) means "the sound" or "voice."
αὐτῆς (autēs) is a possessive pronoun meaning "of it" or "its."
ἀκούεις (akouēs):
The verb ἀκούω (akouō) means "to hear." ἀκούεις (akouēs) means "you hear."
ἀλλὰ οὐκ οἶδας (alla ouk oidas):
ἀλλὰ (alla) means "but."
οὐκ (ouk) means "not."
οἶδας (oidas) is the perfect tense of οἶδα (oida), meaning "to know" or "to understand." Thus, οἶδας means "you know."
πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει (pothen erchetai kai pou hypagei):
πόθεν (pothen) means "from where" or "whence."
ἔρχεται (erchetai) is the present tense of ἔρχομαι (erchomai), meaning "comes."
καὶ (kai) means "and."
ποῦ (pou) means "where."
ὑπάγει (hypagei) is the present tense of ὑπάγω (hypagō), meaning "goes" or "leaves."
οὕτως ἔστιν (houtōs estin):
οὕτως (houtōs) means "so" or "in this way."
ἔστιν (estin) is the present tense of εἰμί (eimi), meaning "is."
πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Πνεύματος (pas ho gegennēmenos ek tou Pneumatos):
πᾶς (pas) means "every" or "all."
ὁ (ho) is the definite article "the."
γεγεννημένος (gegennēmenos) is the perfect participle of γεννάω (gennāō), meaning "born" or "begotten."
ἐκ (ek) means "from" or "out of."
τοῦ Πνεύματος (tou Pneumatos) means "the Spirit" (where Πνεῦμα (Pneuma) means "spirit" or "wind").
Context and Interpretation
1. The Immediate Context
John 3:8 occurs in the context of Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus, a Pharisee and member of the Jewish ruling council. Jesus is explaining the concept of being "born again" or "born from above" (John 3:3-7). The reference to the wind in John 3:8 serves as a metaphor to illustrate the nature of the new birth through the Holy Spirit.
2. Theological Implications
Freedom of the Spirit: Just as the wind blows freely and is unpredictable, so is the work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit operates in ways that are beyond human control or comprehension. This emphasizes the sovereignty and unpredictability of God's work in the spiritual realm.
Mystery of Spiritual Regeneration: The comparison underscores the mystery surrounding spiritual regeneration. Just as one cannot fully grasp the origins or destination of the wind, so too is the process of being born of the Spirit mysterious and beyond human understanding.
Divine Sovereignty: The passage reflects the divine sovereignty in the work of salvation. The Holy Spirit acts according to God’s will, and believers are not in control of or fully aware of how the Spirit moves and works in people’s lives.
The Nature of the New Birth: Jesus uses this analogy to help Nicodemus understand that the new birth is not a physical rebirth but a spiritual one, initiated and controlled by the Holy Spirit.
John 3:8 uses the metaphor of the wind to describe the nature of spiritual regeneration and the work of the Holy Spirit. The Greek text highlights the contrast between the unpredictable nature of the wind and the sovereign, mysterious workings of the Spirit. This analogy helps convey the profound truth that the new birth, while essential for entering the kingdom of God, is beyond human manipulation and understanding. The passage emphasizes the need for trust in God’s sovereign work and the acceptance of the mysterious nature of spiritual transformation.
You are mischaracterizing me sister--see how you are misquoting this verse, ripping it out of context-really trying to sound so "mystical"
Joh 3:4 “How “Πῶς can δύναται a man ἄνθρωπος be born γεννηθῆναι when he is ὤν; old? γέρων - ὁ Nicodemus Νικόδημος asked Λέγει - πρὸς - . αὐτὸν vvv μὴ “Can he δύναται enter εἰσελθεῖν . . . εἰς - τὴν - τῆς his αὐτοῦ mother’s μητρὸς womb κοιλίαν a second time δεύτερον - καὶ to be born?” γεννηθῆναι;
Joh 3:5 Jesus Ἰησοῦς answered Ἀπεκρίθη - , (ὁ) “Truly, “Ἀμὴν truly, ἀμὴν I tell λέγω you, σοι, no οὐ one τις can δύναται enter εἰσελθεῖν . . . εἰς the τὴν kingdom βασιλείαν - τοῦ of God Θεοῦ. unless ἐὰν . . . μή he is born γεννηθῇ of ἐξ water ὕδατος and καὶ [the] Spirit. Πνεύματος,
Joh 3:6 Flesh σάρξ is ἐστιν, - τὸ born γεγεννημένον of ἐκ - τῆς flesh, σαρκὸς [but] καὶ spirit πνεῦμά is ἐστιν. - τὸ born γεγεννημένον of ἐκ the τοῦ Spirit. Πνεύματος
Joh 3:7 vvv μὴ Do not be amazed θαυμάσῃς that ὅτι I said εἶπόν - , σοι ‘You ὑμᾶς must ‘Δεῖ be born γεννηθῆναι again.’ ἄνωθεν.
Joh 3:8 The τὸ wind πνεῦμα blows πνεῖ, where ὅπου it wishes. θέλει - καὶ You hear ἀκούεις, - τὴν its αὐτοῦ sound, φωνὴν but ἀλλ’ vvv οὐκ you do not know οἶδας where πόθεν it comes {from} ἔρχεται [or] καὶ where ποῦ it is going. ὑπάγει· So οὕτως it is ἐστὶν with everyone πᾶς - ὁ born γεγεννημένος of ἐκ the τοῦ Spirit.” Πνεύματος.
Joh 3:9 “How “Πῶς can δύναται this ταῦτα be?” γενέσθαι; Nicodemus Νικόδημος asked Ἀπεκρίθη . . . καὶ . . . εἶπεν . . . . αὐτῷ
1) "The wind bloweth where it listeth," (to pneuma hopou thelei pnei) "The spirit (wind) blows where it wishes," or where it likes; though it is invisible, it is real, operating, ever active for the life and good of every living creature in the universe.
2) "And thou hearest the sound thereof," (kai ten phonen autou akoueis) "And you hear the sound of it," have audible as well as sensory evidence of its existence and presence, from the gentle breeze to its cyclone, tornado, or hurricane force and sound.
3) "But canst not tell whence it cometh," (all' ouk oidas pothen erchetai) "But you do not perceive or comprehend from where it comes," of its own accord, if in silent form, or gale force and sound. Its origin or source has a mystifying influence on all.
4) "And whither it goeth:”- (kai pou hupagei) "And where it goes," when it lays, becomes silent, yet present.
5) "So is every one that is born of the Spirit.'' (houtos estin pas ho gegennemenos ek tou pneumatos) "Similar to, or like this, is everyone who has been and is born of the Spirit." A natural mother, as a Christian woman, can not and does not give birth to a Christian baby or child. All infants are born of the flesh, with the inherent, sinful nature of the flesh nature of the parent, Psa_51:5; Psa_58:3; Jas_1:15; Eph_2:3.
This is why every person of responsible age mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, must be born again to enter heaven. The birth of the Spirit, like the blowing of the wind, is of supernatural power, supernatural conviction, and supernatural quickening. Though it is mysterious, as the blowing of the wind, it is real, Joh_6:63; 2Co_3:6; Rom_8:2-3; Rom_8:9; Ecc_11:5.
Shalom, allow me some space since you now conveniently "forget" the gifts and where to find them in Scriptures.
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Still waiting for you to list ALL the gifts recorded in Scripture re the edification of the body of Christ.
The gifts/dorean are listed-you just don't know where to find it sister, admit it, since we ought to be like the Bereans yes?
Act 17:11 Now these were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica. They [Literally “who”] accepted the message with all eagerness, examining the scriptures every day to see if these things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed, and not a few of the prominent Greek women and men.
More noble than those (eugenesteroi tōn). Comparative form of eugenēs, old and common adjective, but in N.T. only here and Luk_19:12; 1Co_1:26. Followed by ablative case tōn as often after the comparative.
With all readiness of mind (meta pāsēs prothumias). Old word from prothumos (pro, thumos) and means eagerness, rushing forward. In the N.T. only here and 2Co_8:11-19; 2Co_9:2. In Thessalonica many of the Jews out of pride and prejudice refused to listen. Here the Jews joyfully welcomed the two Jewish visitors.
Examining the Scriptures daily (kath' hēmeran anakrinontes tas graphas). Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves. In Scotland people have the Bible open on the preacher as he expounds the passage, a fine habit worth imitating.
Whether these things were so (ei echoi tauta houtōs). Literally, “if these things had it thus.” The present optative in the indirect question represents an original present indicative as in Luk_1:29 (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1043f.). This use of ei with the optative may be looked at as the condition of the fourth class (undetermined with less likelihood of determination) as in Act_17:27; Act_20:16; Act_24:19; Act_27:12 (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1021). The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Paul’s preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain (Hovey).
RWP
1Pe 3:15 but set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for an accounting concerning the hope that is in you.
1Pe 3:16 But do so with courtesy and respect, having a good conscience, so that in the things in which you are slandered, the ones who malign your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.
3:15 "but sanctify" This is an aorist active imperative, which implies a decisive past act of setting someone apart for God's use (this may also reflect Isa. 8:14, which has "sanctuary"). Believers must sanctify Christ in their hearts as Christ sanctified Himself for them (cf. John 17:19).
Notice that in 1 Thess. 5:23 it is God who sanctifies believers. Now believers are commanded to sanctify themselves. This is the covenant paradox of biblical faith (compare Ezek. 18:31 with 36:26-27). God is sovereign, yet humans are also free and must exercise that freedom in God's will. And how are we to sanctify Christ?
with our love for one another (cf. 1 Pet. 3:8-9)
with our lives (cf. 1 Pet. 3:13-14)
with our verbal witness (cf. 1 Pet. 3:15)
"Christ as Lord" The King James Version has "Lord God," which reflects Isa. 8:12-13, which has "the Lord of hosts," while 1 Pet. 3:14 is a Messianic text. However, the ancient Greek manuscripts P72, א, A, B, and C have "Christ as Lord," which fits this context better.
"in your hearts" "Hearts" is an OT idiom referring to the whole person.
"always being ready to make a defense" This is the Greek term apologia, which is a compound of apo (from) and logos (word). It refers to a legal defense in a courtroom setting (cf. Acts 19:33; 22:1; 25:16; 26:1,2,24). This text is often used to encourage believers to be an evangelistic witness, which is surely needed, but in context this probably refers to official trials or interrogations. Notice that it is important for all believers to have a prepared, logical presentation of their faith in Christ, whether for a court or for a neighbor. Every believer should be ready to be a verbal witness!
"for the hope that is in you" Hope here is a collective word for the gospel and its future consummation. Believers live now in godly ways because of their confidence in Christ's promises and return.
"with gentleness and reverence" The first term is used of wives in 1 Pet. 3:4, where it describes an attitude which is pleasing to God. This is true, not only in the interpersonal relationships of the home, but also of the believer's relationship to others, even those who instigate persecution (cf. 2 Tim. 2:25).
The second term is used often in 1 Peter and also reflects a day of persecution and intimidation (cf. 1 Pet. 1:17; 2:17,18; 3:2,15). We are to respect God and because of that, honor even unbelieving masters, husbands, and persecutors, as we witness to His power and kingdom.
3:16 There is some confusion as to where 1 Pet. 3:16 starts. NASB and NKJV start here and UBS4, NRSV, TEV, and NJB start it a phrase earlier.
"keep a good conscience" This is a present active participle used as an imperative.
There is not an OT counterpart to the Greek term "conscience" unless the Hebrew term "breast" implies a knowledge of self and its motives. Originally the Greek term referred to consciousness related to the five senses. It came to be used of the inner senses (cf. Rom. 2:15). Paul uses this term twice in his trials in Acts (cf. Acts 23:1 and 24:16). It refers to his sense that he had not knowingly violated any expected duties toward God (cf. 1 Cor. 4:4).
Conscience is a developing understanding of believers' motives and actions based on
a biblical worldview
an indwelling Spirit
a knowledge of the word of God
the personal reception of the gospel
Peter has used this expression three times, 1 Pet. 2:19; 3:16 and 21. This is exactly what religious legalism could not provide, but the gospel can.
Utley.
I plucked this from GotQuestions and not a site I would recommend--but here is an excellent list.
There are actually three biblical lists of the “gifts of the Spirit,” also known as spiritual gifts. The three main passages describing the spiritual gifts are Romans 12:6–8; 1 Corinthians 12:4–11; and 1 Corinthians 12:28. We could also include Ephesians 4:11, but that is a list of offices within the church, not spiritual gifts, per se. The spiritual gifts identified in Romans 12 are prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy. The list in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11 includes the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues. The list in 1 Corinthians 12:28 includes healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. A brief description of each gift follows:
Prophecy – The Greek word translated “prophecy” in both passages properly means “a speaking forth.” According to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, the word refers to “discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events.” To prophesy is to declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God that is designed to influence people.
Serving – Also referred to as “ministering,” this gift involves providing service of any kind; it is the broad application of practical help to those in need. “Serving“ is a translation of the Greek word diakonian, from which we get the English deacon.
Teaching – This gift involves the analysis and proclamation of the Word of God, explaining the meaning, context and application to the hearer’s life. The gifted teacher is one who has the unique ability to clearly instruct and communicate knowledge, specifically the doctrines of the faith.
Encouraging – Also called “exhortation,” this gift is evident in those who consistently call upon others to heed and follow God’s truth, which may involve correction or building others up by strengthening weak faith or comforting in trials.
Giving – Gifted givers are those who joyfully share what they have with others, whether it is financial, material, or the giving of personal time and attention. The giver is concerned for the needs of others and seeks opportunities to share goods, money, and time with them as needs arise.
Leadership – The gifted leader is one who rules, presides over, or has the management of other people in the church. The word literally means “guide” and carries with it the idea of one who steers a ship. One with the gift of leadership rules with wisdom and grace and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit in his life as he leads by example.
Mercy – Closely linked with the gift of encouragement, the gift of mercy is obvious in those who are compassionate toward others who are in distress, showing sympathy and sensitivity coupled with a desire and the resources to lessen their suffering in a kind and cheerful manner.
Word of wisdom – The fact that this gift is described as the “word” of wisdom indicates that it is one of the speaking gifts. This gift describes someone who can understand and speak forth biblical truth in such a way as to skillfully apply it to life situations with discernment.
Word of knowledge – This is another speaking gift that involves understanding truth with an insight that only comes by revelation from God. Those with the gift of knowledge understand the deep things of God and the mysteries of His Word.
Faith – All believers possess faith in some measure because it is one of the gifts of the Spirit bestowed on all who come to Christ in faith (Galatians 5:22-23). The spiritual gift of faith is exhibited by one with a strong and unshakeable confidence in God, His Word, His promises, and the power of prayer to effect miracles.
Healing – Although God does still heal today, and while there is no biblical reason that God could not empower an individual with the spiritual gift of healing today, God miraculously healing people directly through the spiritual gifting of an individual seems to have primarily been limited to the ministry of the apostles and their close associates in the very early days of the church (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4).
Miraculous powers – Also known as the working of miracles, this is another temporary sign gift that involved performing supernatural events that could only be attributed to the power of God (Acts 2:22). This gift was exhibited by Paul (Acts 19:11-12), Peter (Acts 3:6), Stephen (Acts 6:8), and Phillip (Acts 8:6-7), among others.
Distinguishing (discerning) of spirits – Certain individuals possess the unique ability to determine the true message of God from that of the deceiver, Satan, whose methods include purveying deceptive and erroneous doctrine. Jesus said many would come in His name and would deceive many (Matthew 24:4-5), but the gift of discerning spirits is given to the church to protect it from such as these.
Speaking in tongues – The gift of tongues is one of the temporary sign gifts given to the early church to enable the gospel to be preached throughout the world to all nations and in all known languages. It involved the divine ability to speak in languages previously unknown to the speaker. This gift authenticated the message of the gospel and those who preached it as coming from God. The phrase “diversity of tongues” (KJV) or “different kinds of tongues” (NIV) effectively eliminates the idea of a “personal prayer language” as a spiritual gift.
Interpretation of tongues – A person with the gift of interpreting tongues could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues-speaker to everyone else, so all could understand.
Helps – Closely related to the gift of mercy is the gift of helps. Those with the gift of helps are those who can aid or render assistance to others in the church with compassion and grace. This has a broad range of possibilities for application. Most importantly, this is the unique ability to identify those who are struggling with doubt, fears, and other spiritual battles; to move toward those in spiritual need with a kind word, an understanding and compassionate demeanor; and to speak scriptural truth that is both convicting and loving.
Is there a biblical spiritual gifts list? | GotQuestions.org
Is there a biblical spiritual gifts list? How many spiritual gifts are there? What are the different spiritual gifts that the Bible lists?
www.gotquestions.org
I'm sorry to not be able to parse through and process all your lengthy posts brother. Short on time today as well. But no I haven't forgotten that some gifts are mentioned in scripture....just saying it is not an exhaustive list.
My crude notes--
Key Scriptural Passages Enumerating Spiritual Gifts
1. Romans 12:6-8
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.”
Here, Paul lists several gifts:
Prophecy
Ministry (Service)
Teaching
Exhortation (Encouragement)
Giving
Leading
Showing Mercy
2. 1 Corinthians 12:8-10
“For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.”
This passage lists additional gifts:
Word of Wisdom
Word of Knowledge
Faith
Gifts of Healings
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues
3. 1 Corinthians 12:28-30
“And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?”
Here, Paul lists further roles and gifts:
Apostles
Prophets
Teachers
Workers of Miracles
Gifts of Healings
Helps
Administrations
Varieties of Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues (implied in the questions)
4. Ephesians 4:11
“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.”
This passage lists:
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastors
Teachers
Summary of the Enumerated Gifts
Combining these passages, we have the following list of gifts and roles:
Prophecy
Ministry (Service)
Teaching
Exhortation (Encouragement)
Giving
Leading
Showing Mercy
Word of Wisdom
Word of Knowledge
Faith
Gifts of Healings
Working of Miracles
Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues
Apostleship
Helps
Administrations
Evangelism
Pastoring
Theological Perspective on Exhaustiveness
The comprehensive nature of these lists, as provided by Paul, suggests a deliberate attempt to enumerate the various ways the Holy Spirit empowers and equips believers for service in the body of Christ. The repetition and overlap among the lists in Romans, 1 Corinthians, and Ephesians indicate that Paul was cataloging the primary and distinct manifestations of the Spirit's work within the church. However, some theologians argue that while these lists are extensive, they may not necessarily preclude other gifts not explicitly mentioned but which align with the character and purposes of God’s work in the church.
Key Scriptural Passages Enumerating Spiritual Gifts
1. Romans 12:6-8
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.”
Here, Paul lists several gifts:
Prophecy
Ministry (Service)
Teaching
Exhortation (Encouragement)
Giving
Leading
Showing Mercy
2. 1 Corinthians 12:8-10
“For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.”
This passage lists additional gifts:
Word of Wisdom
Word of Knowledge
Faith
Gifts of Healings
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues
3. 1 Corinthians 12:28-30
“And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?”
Here, Paul lists further roles and gifts:
Apostles
Prophets
Teachers
Workers of Miracles
Gifts of Healings
Helps
Administrations
Varieties of Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues (implied in the questions)
4. Ephesians 4:11
“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.”
This passage lists:
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastors
Teachers
Summary of the Enumerated Gifts
Combining these passages, we have the following list of gifts and roles:
Prophecy
Ministry (Service)
Teaching
Exhortation (Encouragement)
Giving
Leading
Showing Mercy
Word of Wisdom
Word of Knowledge
Faith
Gifts of Healings
Working of Miracles
Discerning of Spirits
Different Kinds of Tongues
Interpretation of Tongues
Apostleship
Helps
Administrations
Evangelism
Pastoring
Theological Perspective on Exhaustiveness
The comprehensive nature of these lists, as provided by Paul, suggests a deliberate attempt to enumerate the various ways the Holy Spirit empowers and equips believers for service in the body of Christ. The repetition and overlap among the lists in Romans, 1 Corinthians, and Ephesians indicate that Paul was cataloging the primary and distinct manifestations of the Spirit's work within the church. However, some theologians argue that while these lists are extensive, they may not necessarily preclude other gifts not explicitly mentioned but which align with the character and purposes of God’s work in the church.
All we have to do is find our gifting/s and calling and remain steadfast IN them and so the schisms will eventually disappear and hopefully peace and harmony will reign and rule as a castle in/among the brethren.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
let me guess my dear friend
next order up will be to list the different crowns .
I can tell you learned some things from men .
Or perhaps you will ask me to tell you the difference between the Kingdom of GOD , and Kingdom of Heaven .
Or perhaps maybe someone will ask me to explain the difference between the gospel to the jews
and the gospel to the gentiles .
Let me tell you that which i have long known . MEN overthink stuff my friend
and men make decisples of men .
Why do you think i have long pleaded to every group
to simply return to the bible to learn for themselves .
What man has complicated , can easily have been made quite simple .
The question , concern , the topic i spoke of
was not about how many different gifts there be
but rather that the gifts HAVE NOT Ceased .
The topic at hand was cessationism my friend .
OH i am sure many can tell me of the seven different crowns
OF course they misunderstand this concept entirely .
I mean it was pre trib and others that came up with different crowns
in order to first justify certain parts of their doctrine .
Peter himself , paul himself could not have went to a hospital and empited the beds thereof .
That be a blanket statment .
Not only that but not all have the gifts of healing now do they .
Just like not all have the same gifts . DIFFERING gifts are spread out as GOD giveth to each person .
Just like not all are apostels , not all speak with tongues , not all are prophets
not all have the gifts of healing or etc . ITS SPREAD OUT johann .
and even those who do have THE gift of healing
dont heal each and every person they encounter now do they .
There is a reason why GOD do as HE DO
and why HE spread out the gifts as HE DO .
While it is true that the apostles may have had more gifts than others .
Even paul had special gifts that even etc .
Not all have every gift johann . In fact there is a real good reason as to perhaps why that is .
That no one man has the FULL MEASURE .
And i would like to allow paul to remind us .
EVEN HE had to be humbled by GOD for the revelations given HIM of GOD
so that HE would not be exalted up above measure .
Me thinks and i actually KNOW its time for each of us to put down the books of men
and rather return to the scriptures to learn for ourselves . What man has made complicated
i promise GOD can make simple again .
What "books of men" Amigo? I agree with your post here--
1 Peter 3:15 (NKJV):
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.”
Greek Text and Analysis:
“Κύριον δὲ τὸν Χριστὸν ἁγιάσατε ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, ἕτοιμοι δὲ ἀεὶ πρὸς ἀπολογίαν παντὶ τῷ αἰτοῦντι ὑμᾶς λόγον περὶ τῆς ἐν ὑμῖν ἐλπίδος, μετὰ πραΰτητος καὶ φόβου.”
Breakdown of Key Terms and Phrases
Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts (Κύριον δὲ τὸν Χριστὸν ἁγιάσατε ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν)
Sanctify: ἁγιάσατε (hagiasate) – to set apart as holy, to reverence.
Lord Christ: Κύριον τὸν Χριστὸν (Kyrion ton Christon) – recognizing Christ as Lord.
In your hearts: ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν (en tais kardiais hymōn) – signifying inner dedication and reverence.
Always be ready (ἕτοιμοι δὲ ἀεὶ)
Always: ἀεὶ (aei) – continuously, perpetually.
Ready: ἕτοιμοι (hetoimoi) – prepared, in a state of readiness.
To give a defense (πρὸς ἀπολογίαν)
Defense: ἀπολογίαν (apologian) – a reasoned argument or explanation, a legal term used for a defense in court, which is the root for "apologetics."
To everyone who asks you (παντὶ τῷ αἰτοῦντι ὑμᾶς)
Everyone: παντὶ (panti) – anyone, all individuals.
Who asks: τῷ αἰτοῦντι (tō aitounti) – those inquiring or requesting.
A reason for the hope that is in you (λόγον περὶ τῆς ἐν ὑμῖν ἐλπίδος)
Reason: λόγον (logon) – word, reason, explanation.
Hope: ἐλπίδος (elpidos) – expectation, confidence in God’s promises.
With meekness and fear (μετὰ πραΰτητος καὶ φόβου)
Meekness: πραΰτητος (prautētos) – gentleness, humility.
Fear: φόβου (phobou) – reverence, respect.
Context and Cross-References
Context of 1 Peter 3:13-17
The broader context emphasizes righteous living and the potential for suffering for doing good. Peter encourages believers to maintain a good conscience and integrity, even in the face of persecution.
Related Passages
Colossians 4:6: “Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.”
This verse emphasizes gracious and thoughtful speech, prepared to give appropriate answers.
2 Timothy 2:24-25: “And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.”
Highlighting the need for gentleness and patience when teaching or correcting others, aligning with the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15.
Proverbs 15:28: “The heart of the righteous studies how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours forth evil.”
This proverb stresses the importance of thoughtful and righteous responses.
Conclusion
The instruction in 1 Peter 3:15 to be ready to give an answer for the hope within aligns with a broader biblical emphasis on preparedness, thoughtful speech, and gentle, respectful engagement with others. The Greek exegesis of this passage highlights the key components of reverencing Christ, maintaining readiness, articulating a reasoned defense, and doing so with humility and respect. Cross-references in Colossians, 2 Timothy, and Proverbs further reinforce these principles, providing a robust scriptural foundation for the call to give an answer for one's faith.
Tell me, is this "a book" that I need to lay down? You are giving commentary and so do I-as long as it is Scriptural.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
All should show mercy . He who has no mercy will be given no mercy .
I just noticed something johann .
And i bet the definition of what these men consider to be tongues
can be found in the JW camp , the mormon camp and sadly the protestant camp .
The cessationist actaully attacks the GOD GIVEN correct defintion of tongues
and uses rather the same interpreation as do the mormon church itself about tongues .
Now let that put a little fear into ya .
And yet on the day of pentecost and later even when paul writes to the church in corinithians
we can see the real tongues and that definition at work .
Todays men try and say if i spoke in spanish to another that is tongues .
Johann , i could speak spanish by college age
and yet walked about as pratically a pagan .
The common mindset of tongues is its something we can learn carnally , aka
say a man learned , like i did several langauges . to them that is tongues . OH NO it aint johann .
and TONGUES is also nothing that can be taught or given by MAN .
Tongues is simply a HEAVENLY langague give OF GOD .
By which if i spoke it , for example . And a jew , a chinese , a japanese , a german
who GOD gave the understanding too , WOULD hear and understand what i spoke by tongues
as though they heard it in their own native born language . AND IT has NOT CEASED EITHER JOHANN .
NOW I am a stickler to the pattern paul taught .
In other words if i saw a church just speaking in tongues and they were just going on and on
I would actually correct it . AS I HAvE DONE in times past .
YOU SEE there are those who will enter into a church , and when they see it at work
and not understanding a word getting said or uttered
will think this group be mad . You see i see the real purpose for tongues .
and i see it is real and its nothing that can be taught to man . BUT simply GIVEN by GOD .
and not all speak with tongues , just like not all will interpret , nor will all have the gift of healing or etc .
MEN have screwed the church my friend . Them todd whites and etc
selling the gifts in schools as though they can be taught or given of men are an ABOMINATION TO GOD
and i will expose them too . BIBLE TIME for all my friend .
We need to read it for ourselves . ITS way more simplier than most folks realize my friend .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
books , or even CONCEPTS of men .
perhaps concepts would have been a better word for this conversation .
Now dont think i see you as an enemy or as false . I DONT .
BUT i am telling you cessationism is A FALSE concept .
And its far better for you to flee that .
Man i know the charasmetic realm has long been infiltrated by another spirit . I KNOW THAT .
no doubt in mind about that .
But none of the gifts have ceased and this too is a fact .
ALSO i know a surge in false miracles signs and wonders has been and WILL INCREASE .
and i know many are captivated to these events .
BUT my friend , what do you really think i have been captivated too .
a hint , I speak of it often . BIBLE TIME . its tHE WORD and words of GOD my friend .
You dont see me going around constantly and daily speaking of healings
of miracles , of etc
IN fact i often warn against that crowd who does so .
BUT it dont mean it ceased my friend . IT JUST Means we got a lot of false ones out there .
SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT IS real johann . IT IS .
The gift of it also is real . discerment itself comes also with time and study of the word .
BUT there is also A Gift OF IT . I KNOW this my friend .
Just as is word of knowledge etc or word of wisdom etc .
And i am telling us and warning us and reminding us
IT really is time we got in the bible and read it for ourselves again .
AND PS , you dont need commentaries or etc of men either .
TRUTH IS every commentary and etc of men that i personally have seen
and read , HAS CONTRADICTIONS IN IT . some greater than others , BUT THEY ARE IN THEM .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Here is a simple example .
What has been my focus . miracles signs and wonders
OR the preaching of JESUS CHRIST and HIM crucified .
And watch out johann , there is a movement that has even found its way into the reformed camp .
Its now becoming how can we tone down the message
and the focus is more on appeasment .
I dont think JESUS worried too much about WHAT to say or HOW to appraoch a man .
Specially when i seen the things HE said . EVEN to his own desciples .
WHEN They too had come to him and said LORD your speech OFFENED THEM .
I Dont seem to remember JESUS saying , man thanks for that reminder i need to find a way , a different way
to approach them . HE said LEAVE EM BE , every plant my Father has not planted
WILL INDEED be rooted up .
Man always THINKS he might have a better way to appraoch , to witness , to speak to man .
I SAY , LET THE SPIRIT LEAD and WORRY NOT about what to say or HOW can i perhaps make people see my point better .
I mean , SPEAK TRUTH , do as the SPIRIT bids , learn the biblical pattern for all things
and DONT LET IT GO at all . YOU HOLD to that PATTERN and watch out for men .
MEN always think they have a better way to do something , that might perhaps add numbers to the church
or might perhaps not run off people .
NO SIR . SPEAK THE TRUTH , IF it offends them , THEN that be on them .
YOU SEe i know something that many have forgotten .
MAN , not you , not me , not any CAN give the increase .
BUT what we can do IS SPEAK TRUTH and GOD adds who HE WILLS and WHOEVER rejects THATS ON THEM .
2. 1 Corinthians 1:18-29
1 Corinthians 1:18-21 (NKJV):
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.' Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (NKJV):
"For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence."
These passages highlight that God’s wisdom and calling often contradict human expectations and worldly wisdom. God chooses what the world considers foolish to shame the wise.
Additional Supporting Verses
3. Luke 10:21
Luke 10:21 (NKJV):
"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.'"
This passage echoes the sentiment in Matthew 11:25-26, emphasizing Jesus' joy in the Father's choice to reveal divine truths to the humble.
4. James 2:5
James 2:5 (NKJV):
"Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?"
James points out that God often chooses the poor, who are rich in faith, to inherit the kingdom, underscoring the principle that God's choices transcend human standards of wisdom and status.
Conclusion
The scriptural basis for the idea that the gospel is not given to the wise and learned but to the humble and simple is well supported. Matthew 11:25-26, 1 Corinthians 1:18-29, Luke 10:21, and James 2:5 collectively illustrate that God’s revelation and calling often defy human wisdom and status. These passages affirm that divine truths are revealed to those who approach with humility and openness, rather than relying on worldly wisdom and intellectual prowess.
My apologies for coming down hard on you and you time to respond but like you, I am a stickler when it comes to these things re gifts and I am familiar with the teachings you have mentioned--problem is I am hopelessly being misunderstood here.
So I apologize to you and @Lizbeth but don't apologize for the truth as it stands written.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
wanna hear something scary . peter never had ceased from the preaching of the one true gospel .
BUT he did do something that paul said to the galation church
was CONTRARY to the gospel .
Peter was not walking according to the gospel , according to paul .
and yet peter was not saying ye dont need to beleive on JESUS
he was DOING something CONTRARY to JESUS THE CHRIST .
HE was seperating the peoples , jews from gentiles .
and paul said when i saw he walked not according to THE GOSPEL .
isnt that something .
As far as false teachers in the church , what paul wrote to the church did not apply to them wolves .
WHEN paul said whether in pretence or in truth .
What do you think was going on . Think about when the jews showed up
to accuse paul and were desiring to have in actually put to death .
JESUS was the main focus . NOW these had a problem with paul
but paul would always testify of JESUS . JESUS was being preached . mayhaps not by them
but he sure was by paul . When paul wrote and said that
HE was speakng not about false prophets who decieve or lead astray
he was talking about the jews who were trying to get him put to death
and they would come in to the authorities , whether first lysais , and later felix
and later felix and agrippa . THEY were trying to get paul in TROUBLE, put to death .
YET at every meeting JESUS WAS GETTING preached .
THEY WOULD talk about HIM and paul would testify OF HIM .
Not being a German speaker myself, I don't see how he benefited anyone beyond providing a translation, that, for all I know, is as flawed as our own English versions. Be that as it may, Luther's idea of the gospel and grace is legalistic....as in...you can name and claim intimacy with God level things for oneself...just by believing they are for you. So if anything, the Great Delusion came through him and others like him. It's all about the humanistic nature of the renaissance.
There are many warnings against Luther's antics in the bible. But it just so happens that it takes discernment, honesty and reading skills to perceive them.
So be it. God wants to test our rich, entitled, middle-class ideals such as the pursuit of happiness. Seeing the bible through that lens...like being at a cafeteria where one takes what one wants...and leaves what one doesn't want for others...has produced a disaster in both the church and the society at large. God is not pleased as we will soon discover in reality.
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