Last day prophecies fulfilled

[dad]

But, it is recorded that there were ten descendant generation recorded as being born in Egypt during the 430 years that they lived in Egypt from the time that Jacob/Israel went down to Egypt. 1 Chron 7:20-29 is shown in the diagram below: -

View attachment 27546

As for Arron and Moses being of the fourth descendant from Levi, the bible is silent on providing this information.

OK, but four generations seems to put that in the distant past no matter how we count them.

Also, the Hebrew word, וְד֥וֹר "wə·ḏō·wr" with the embedded Hebrew Root word H:1755 is better understood to have the meaning of and "age" and the length of an age is around 1,000 years. It is my understanding that Isaac was born around the year 2052 BC and since some of Abraham's descendants return to take possession of the Land of Canaan in the year 1948 AD, there was 4,000 years between when the Birth of Isaac and the return of some of Abraham's descendants to the land.

The word generation from a Hebrew translation I looked at says this

"

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) period, generation, habitation, dwelling
1a) period, age, generation (period of time)
1b) generation (those living during a period)
1c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)
1d) dwelling-place, habitation

Strong's
From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.


Since it is not clear, there is no way we can assign 1000 years for a strong claim. That in no way links this to 1948


Another commentary says this
"16. In the fourth generation Evidently reckoning one hundred years as an average generation among these patriarchs . "

Genesis 15 - Whedon's Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Genesis 15, Whedon's Commentary on the Bible, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary was written by Whedon, a central figure in the struggle between Calvinism & Arminianism

www.studylight.org

or this one

"

Verse 16​

Genesis 15:16. They shall come hither again Hither to the land of Canaan, wherein thou now art. The reason why they must not have the land of promise in possession till the fourth generation, is, because “the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full.” The righteous God has determined that they shall not be cut off till they are arrived to such a pitch of wickedness; and therefore, till it come to that, the seed of Abram must be kept out of possession."

Genesis 15 - Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Genesis 15, Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary is the result of a live devoted the zealous and constant study of philosophy and theology

www.studylight.org

Or this one

"
Genesis 15:16


But in the fourth generation,—τετάρτη δὲ γενεᾷ (LXX.); but, more correctly, the fourth generation, calculating 100 years to a generation. "Caleb was the fourth from Judah, and Moses from Levi, and so doubtless many others" (Bush). Drs. Oort and Kuenen, reckoning four generations as a far shorter space of time than four centuries, detect a contradiction between this verse and Genesis 15:13, and an evidence of the free use which the ancient and uncritical Israelitish author made of his materials. On the import of דּוֹר vide Genesis 6:9—they shall come hither again (literally, shall return hither): for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. Literally, for not completed the iniquity of the Amorites (vide Genesis 14:7; here put for the entire population! until then (the same word as "hither, which is its usual signification)."

Genesis 15 - The Pulpit Commentaries - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Genesis 15, The Pulpit Commentaries, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary, spanning 23 volumes, covered the entire Bible with verse by verse exposition

www.studylight.org

or this one

"
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


But in the fourth generation, [Hebrew, dowr (H1755), or dor (H1755)] - the revolution or circle of human years; an age or generation. [Like genea (G1074), among the Greeks, and soeculum among the Romans, its meaning, as to extent of time, differed at different periods.] In the patriarchal age it denoted a hundred years (cf. Genesis 15:13 with Exodus 12:40)."
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


But in the fourth generation, [Hebrew, dowr (H1755), or dor (H1755)] - the revolution or circle of human years; an age or generation. [Like genea (G1074), among the Greeks, and soeculum among the Romans, its meaning, as to extent of time, differed at different periods.] In the patriarchal age it denoted a hundred years (cf. Genesis 15:13 with Exodus 12:40).

As verse 13 in the chapter indicates,

Genesis 15:13




And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

So the Jews coming out with great substance from the land they served after four generations is not talking about 1948.

This 4,000-year timespan was beyond the scholars' ability to comprehend and so they wrongly claimed that the second prophecy concerning Israel's distant future in verse 16 was actual a part of the near future prophecy concerning God bring Israel out of Egypt some 635 years after the Birth of Isaac.

You can't declare them wrong just to fit your ideas.

As for Gill's commentary, and many others, I have little faith in their expressed thoughts concerning this prophecy in Genesis 15:16.

The Genealogy of Ephraim's descendants disproves the assumption that only four descendant generations were born in Egypt.

Shalom

Well as another commentary said in the time of the patriarchs a generation was 100 years. That need not fit later generations as the commentary I posted says the period differed at different times. The verse has no connection to 1948.

 

[Jay Ross]

You can't declare them wrong just to fit your ideas.

But that is what you are doing with what I have posted.

In Genesis 15:13-16, we have three separate prophecies that deal with three very different subject matters.

Gen 15:12-16: - 12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him.

First Prophecy: - 13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.

Second Prophecy: - 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.

Third Prophecy: - 16 But in the fourth generation/age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

The first prophecy spoke of the time that Israel lived in Egypt.

The second prophecy spoke about the rest of Abraham's life.

The third prophecy spoke about the time span of a distant future time when Abraham's descendants would return to the Land of Canaan.

There was a reason why the second prophecy was inserted between the first and third prophecy. It was there to show that the third prophecy had no connection with the first prophecy.

Now from the time of the Birth of Isaac, until the first time that Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan, 660 years would pass.

Now from the time of the Birth of Isaac, until the second time that Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan, around 1,550 or so years would pass.

Now from the time of the Birth of Isaac, until the third time that Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan, around 4,000 years would pass.

Now can you please tell me which return of Abraham's descendants God was referring too?

I believe that the third return of Abraham's descendants to the Land of Canaan fits the Genesis 15:16 prophecy best.

Shalom

 

[dad]

But that is what you are doing with what I have posted.

No. I provided several commentaries and common sense that shows that four generations did not extend over thousands of years to 1948.

In Genesis 15:13-16, we have three separate prophecies that deal with three very different subject matters.

Gen 15:12-16: - 12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him.

First Prophecy: - 13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.

Ok, so that sounds like the 4 hundred years as slaves in Egypt

Second Prophecy: - 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.

OK, so that was for Abraham

Third Prophecy: - 16 But in the fourth generation/age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

So if a generation was a hundred years as the commentaries say in the days of the patriarchs, that is very much ancient history. By the way would you say the iniquity of the Amorites was complete in 1948!? That would make no sense since there are no Amorites. If there are genetic relatives in some places, that would have no relevance to 1948 either.

The first prophecy spoke of the time that Israel lived in Egypt.

The second prophecy spoke about the rest of Abraham's life.

The third prophecy spoke about the time span of a distant future time when Abraham's descendants would return to the Land of Canaan.

It does not say distant future. It says generations. The Jews returned to the land after Egypt. They also returned after the captivity. They will also return after Jesus comes back and restores the saved remnant. It was at the time of conquering the promised Land that God told them to kill the Amorites. That makes sense if their iniquity was full. Not 1948.

There was a reason why the second prophecy was inserted between the first and third prophecy. It was there to show that the third prophecy had no connection with the first prophecy.

Now from the time of the Birth of Isaac, until the first time that Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan, 660 years would pass.

Now from the time of the Birth of Isaac, until the second time that Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan, around 1,550 or so years would pass.

Now from the time of the Birth of Isaac, until the third time that Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan, around 4,000 years would pass.

Now can you please tell me which return of Abraham's descendants God was referring too?

I believe that the third return of Abraham's descendants to the Land of Canaan fits the Genesis 15:16 prophecy best.

Shalom

The commentaries I see all say 430 years or so.

"Abram’s sojourn in Canaan (c 2042 BC) until Jacob’s move from Canaan (c 1827 BC) = 215 years in Canaan. And Jacob’s move to Egypt (c 1827 BC) until the exodus (c 1612 BC) = 215 years in Egypt. The total of both = 430 years…2042–1612 BC. As per the LXX/Septúagint, Josephus, Eusebius, etc."

Chronology: Abraham to the Exodus

Knowing the time when Biblical events occurred and the chronology of Bible characters helps us see the word of God in its historical context. Also we learn the time frame of His ancient people in …

bibletopicexpo.wordpress.com

I am not sure why you cite 660 years?

 

[Jay Ross]

No. I provided several commentaries and common sense that shows that four generations did not extend over thousands of years to 1948.

So how do you know that the writers of the commentaries that you referenced in your post got it right?

The meaning of H:1775 as "Generation" back in the time of Abraham, does not mean a descendant generation as you are applying the meaning that is applicable to this present time period. You are mixing today meaning of the word H1755 "Dowr" in the Hebrew text instead of applying the meaning of this Hebrew word back over 4,000 years ago. You simply just cannot do that because that leads you into great error in your understanding of the scriptures.

Ok, so that sounds like the 4 hundred years as slaves in Egypt

Yes, that is correct for the Genesis 15:13-14 prophecy.

OK, so that was for Abraham

Yes the prophecy at Genesis 15:15 was only applicable to the life of Abraham.

So if a generation was a hundred years as the commentaries say in the days of the patriarchs, that is very much ancient history. By the way would you say the iniquity of the Amorites was complete in 1948!? That would make no sense since there are no Amorites. If there are genetic relatives in some places, that would have no relevance to 1948 either.

Now you are making two claims in this quote from your post. The first is that the meaning of the Hebrew root H:1755 "Dowr" is very different to and the English word "generation" does not convey the original meaning because when we talk today about a "generation," we are talking about a "descendant generation," whereas, the use of the English word "Age" conveys a period of time much longer than a descendant generation which is the meaning that you are using in understanding this passage. The length of and "Age" and "a Day of the Lord," is, from my understanding, is the same in that they are both have a duration of around 1,000 years.

It does not say distant future. It says generations. The Jews returned to the land after Egypt. They also returned after the captivity. They will also return after Jesus comes back and restores the saved remnant. It was at the time of conquering the promised Land that God told them to kill the Amorites. That makes sense if their iniquity was full. Not 1948.

For you, how far into the future does the future time seem like a distant future to you? For me 100 years is in the distant future as I will not live to be 100 years old. I will be lucky to reach 92 years old which was the age of my parents when they died. In Genesis 15:16, God was prophesying the return of Israel to the land that occurred after God had scattered then in 70 AD. Some of Abraham's descendants returned 1,910 years after the Romans sold them as slaves to people within their Empire. To me that is a long period of time that I cannot comprehend or understand, let alone the people who lived before 1948.

In this quote, you also make the claim that all of the Amorites in the Land of Canaan were killed, this is not true, because we have this recorded: -

Joshua 24:18: - And the Lord drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God."

If the Amorites were driven out from the land by God, how can you claim that they were all killed. There are 22 references to the Amorites found in OT from the Book of Judges to the Book of Psalms.

The commentaries I see all say 430 years or so.

"Abram’s sojourn in Canaan (c 2042 BC) until Jacob’s move from Canaan (c 1827 BC) = 215 years in Canaan. And Jacob’s move to Egypt (c 1827 BC) until the exodus (c 1612 BC) = 215 years in Egypt. The total of both = 430 years…2042–1612 BC. As per the LXX/Septúagint, Josephus, Eusebius, etc."

Chronology: Abraham to the Exodus

Knowing the time when Biblical events occurred and the chronology of Bible characters helps us see the word of God in its historical context. Also we learn the time frame of His ancient people in …

bibletopicexpo.wordpress.com

I am not sure why you cite 660 years?

Dad, how did you come to the wrong understanding that Israel was only in Egypt for 215 years, when Exodus 12:40-41 clearly states that they were in Egypt for 430 years.

Exodus 12:40-41: - 40 Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years — on that very same day — it came to pass that all the armies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.

Do you not accept all of the Bible, or do you pick and cho0se what parts of the Bible you will believe.

This error that Israel only spent 215 years in Egypt has come about by the poor understanding of some of the commentators. That is why I do not accept the expressed views of commentator. I only go by what I understand from the Bible after reading all of it.

Shalom

 

[Space_Karen]

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

-Revelation 16:12

Politics, climate conspire as Tigris and Euphrates dwindle

A combination of climate change and politics is threatening the Tigris-Euphrates river system, one of the world’s most vulnerable watersheds

abcnews.go.com

Probably the most obvious indicator.

 

[dad]

So how do you know that the writers of the commentaries that you referenced in your post got it right?

It fits. Where does the amorites fit with 1948?

The meaning of H:1775 as "Generation" back in the time of Abraham, does not mean a descendant generation as you are applying the meaning that is applicable to this present time period. You are mixing today meaning of the word H1755 "Dowr" in the Hebrew text instead of applying the meaning of this Hebrew word back over 4,000 years ago. You simply just cannot do that because that leads you into great error in your understanding of the scriptures.

Well not really. The commentaries say a generation in the time of the patriarchs was 100 years. In applying things we need context. The context of the exodus is a good fit for when the amorites had their iniquity full. How does that fit with 1948? In what way would we omit the exodus as a possible fulfillment?

Now you are making two claims in this quote from your post. The first is that the meaning of the Hebrew root H:1755 "Dowr" is very different to and the English word "generation" does not convey the original meaning because when we talk today about a "generation," we are talking about a "descendant generation," whereas, the use of the English word "Age" conveys a period of time much longer than a descendant generation which is the meaning that you are using in understanding this passage. The length of and "Age" and "a Day of the Lord," is, from my understanding, is the same in that they are both have a duration of around 1,000 years.

That still fits with the slavery in Egypt. It was a time or age. What makes you think that 1948 has to be the year when age is mentioned exactly?

For you, how far into the future does the future time seem like a distant future to you? For me 100 years is in the distant future as I will not live to be 100 years old. I will be lucky to reach 92 years old which was the age of my parents when they died. In Genesis 15:16, God was prophesying the return of Israel to the land that occurred after God had scattered then in 70 AD.

You just made that up. It does not say that. There is nothing about 70 AD or 1948. They returned to the land from Babylon and also from Egypt.

Some of Abraham's descendants returned 1,910 years after the Romans sold them as slaves to people within their Empire. To me that is a long period of time that I cannot comprehend or understand, let alone the people who lived before 1948.

So what? They also returned 430 yeara after and after the Babylon captivity. Why would we leap into the future to some year you pick (1948) here?

In this quote, you also make the claim that all of the Amorites in the Land of Canaan were killed, this is not true, because we have this recorded: -

Joshua 24:18: - And the Lord drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God."

If the Amorites were driven out from the land by God, how can you claim that they were all killed. There are 22 references to the Amorites found in OT from the Book of Judges to the Book of Psalms.

God ordered them killed. So there was a real reason. Their cup of iniquity being full is the perfect reason. No such thing in 1948

Dad, how did you come to the wrong understanding that Israel was only in Egypt for 25 years, when Exodus 12:40-41 clearly states that they were in Egypt for 430 years.

I said nothing of the sort. The total time from Abraham till the Jews returned was 430 years, no? That was what the commentary said.

Do you not accept all of the Bible, or do you pick and cho0se what parts of the Bible you will believe.

Except you made up that I said 25 years was the time they served in Egypt. Be honest. One commentary suggested that the total time of the 430 years included time on the way there or something of that sort, with the total being the same. But other commentaries on the link I used did not mention that.

This error that Israel only spent 215 years in Egypt has come about by the poor understanding of some of the commentators. That is why I do not accept the expressed views of commentator. I only go by what I understand from the Bible after reading all of it.

Shalom

The commentary that includes the time in Canaan as well as Egypt with the same total years of 430
"If Abram was born in 2117 BC, he moved from Harrán to Canáan at age 75 (Ge.12:4-5) in 2042 BC. Ex.12:40 LXX “The children of Israel sojourned in the land of Egypt and the land of Canaan for 430 years.” The Masoretic text omits “and the land of Canaan”. But the accounts in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Talmud and Josephus agree with the LXX. Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 2:15:2 “They left Egypt 430 years after Abraham came into Canaan, but 215 years only after Jacob removed into Egypt. It was the 80th year of Moses.” They stayed 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt."

Another commentary agrees (same link)

"John Gill Exposition “Certain it is, that Israel did not dwell in Egypt 430 years.” JFB Commentary “The period of sojourn in Egypt did not exceed 215 years.” Philip Mauro The Wonders of Bible Chronology, p.34 “The 430 years began with God’s promise to Abram, made at the time he entered into Canaan at the age of 75 (Gen.12:1-4).” And the apostle Paul confirms a period of 430 years (Ga.3:16-17)."

Also this one


"Again, if Abram was born c 2117 BC, he arrived in Canaan at age 75 in 2042 BC. Isaac was born when Abraham was 100, c 2017 BC. At age 60, Isaac fathered the twins Jacob & Esau (Ge.25:26) c 1957 BC. Then when Jacob was age 130 (Ge.47:9), he and his moved from Canaan to Egypt c 1827 BC.


Abram’s sojourn in Canaan (c 2042 BC) until Jacob’s move from Canaan (c 1827 BC) = 215 years in Canaan. And Jacob’s move to Egypt (c 1827 BC) until the exodus (c 1612 BC) = 215 years in Egypt. The total of both = 430 years…2042–1612 BC. As per the LXX/Septúagint, Josephus, Eusebius, etc."

So you need more than claiming "poor understanding of some of the commentators."!

 

[dad]

Politics, climate conspire as Tigris and Euphrates dwindle

A combination of climate change and politics is threatening the Tigris-Euphrates river system, one of the world’s most vulnerable watersheds

abcnews.go.com

Probably the most obvious indicator.

You think an angel is pouring over Euphrates now?

 

[Space_Karen]

You think an angel is pouring over Euphrates now?

The euphrates river has been drying up for the last 10 years or so.

I remember reading news stories about it back around 2012.

Which could mean we are more than a decade into the end times.

Or perhaps it could mean nothing. I have a feeling that we shall see.

 

[dad]

The euphrates river has been drying up for the last 10 years or so.

I remember reading news stories about it back around 2012.

Which could mean we are more than a decade into the end times.

Or perhaps it could mean nothing. I have a feeling that we shall see.

I think that in the end, in the proper sequence of angels doing their thing in the judgments of God, an actual angel will dry up that river. Perhaps we could say that the natural man made things affecting that river today are a small taste of things to come. I think in the end (after the Rapture) there really will be angels and demons working directly and visibly on earth.

 

[Jay Ross]

It fits. Where does the amorites fit with 1948?


Well not really. The commentaries say a generation in the time of the patriarchs was 100 years. In applying things we need context. The context of the exodus is a good fit for when the amorites had their iniquity full. How does that fit with 1948? In what way would we omit the exodus as a possible fulfillment?




That still fits with the slavery in Egypt. It was a time or age. What makes you think that 1948 has to be the year when age is mentioned exactly?




You just made that up. It does not say that. There is nothing about 70 AD or 1948. They returned to the land from Babylon and also from Egypt.




So what? They also returned 430 yeara after and after the Babylon captivity. Why would we leap into the future to some year you pick (1948) here?




God ordered them killed. So there was a real reason. Their cup of iniquity being full is the perfect reason. No such thing in 1948

I said nothing of the sort. The total time from Abraham till the Jews returned was 430 years, no? That was what the commentary said.



Except you made up that I said 25 years was the time they served in Egypt. Be honest. One commentary suggested that the total time of the 430 years included time on the way there or something of that sort, with the total being the same. But other commentaries on the link I used did not mention that.


The commentary that includes the time in Canaan as well as Egypt with the same total years of 430
"If Abram was born in 2117 BC, he moved from Harrán to Canáan at age 75 (Ge.12:4-5) in 2042 BC. Ex.12:40 LXX “The children of Israel sojourned in the land of Egypt and the land of Canaan for 430 years.” The Masoretic text omits “and the land of Canaan”. But the accounts in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Talmud and Josephus agree with the LXX. Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 2:15:2 “They left Egypt 430 years after Abraham came into Canaan, but 215 years only after Jacob removed into Egypt. It was the 80th year of Moses.” They stayed 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt."

Another commentary agrees (same link)

"John Gill Exposition “Certain it is, that Israel did not dwell in Egypt 430 years.” JFB Commentary “The period of sojourn in Egypt did not exceed 215 years.” Philip Mauro The Wonders of Bible Chronology, p.34 “The 430 years began with God’s promise to Abram, made at the time he entered into Canaan at the age of 75 (Gen.12:1-4).” And the apostle Paul confirms a period of 430 years (Ga.3:16-17)."

Also this one


"Again, if Abram was born c 2117 BC, he arrived in Canaan at age 75 in 2042 BC. Isaac was born when Abraham was 100, c 2017 BC. At age 60, Isaac fathered the twins Jacob & Esau (Ge.25:26) c 1957 BC. Then when Jacob was age 130 (Ge.47:9), he and his moved from Canaan to Egypt c 1827 BC.


Abram’s sojourn in Canaan (c 2042 BC) until Jacob’s move from Canaan (c 1827 BC) = 215 years in Canaan. And Jacob’s move to Egypt (c 1827 BC) until the exodus (c 1612 BC) = 215 years in Egypt. The total of both = 430 years…2042–1612 BC. As per the LXX/Septúagint, Josephus, Eusebius, etc."

So you need more than claiming "poor understanding of some of the commentators."!

Dad, your timeline of events is a tad out, in my humble opinion. You have ignored that Moses recorded that from the time that Jacob took his family down to Egypt until God led them out that they had sojourned in Egypt for exactly 430 years. You are saying that Exodus 12:40-41 is wrong because of your manipulation of the scriptures to say what you want them to say. It is a misunderstanding of Galatians 3:17 on your part and that of many commentators. If you want to hold to the truth you have to accept Stephen's statement that Abraham began to receive the Abrahamic Covenant while he was still in Ur of the Chaldeans in Acts

Acts 7:2-4: - 2 And he said, "Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3 and said to him, 'Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.' 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell.

NKJV​

We should also note that the father that Stephen referenced in verse 4 was Noah, with whom Abraham spent many years with in Babylon hiding from Nimrod who wanted to have him kill as a child when he was born. and also, just before he left Ur, to go to Haran with his father.

What does this mean? It means that Abraham was born around the year 2152 BC and God began the establishment of the Abrahamic covenant over many encounters with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob spanning some 240 year, assuming that Abraham was 50 years old when God first began speaking to him..

Dad, you have published lots of misinformation in your posts above, because you are accepting that the commentators are right in what they have written, and that the Bible is full of errors. However, there are also other commentator who present a picture of the events more in line with what I have posted.

Dad, I can tell you once, I can tell you twice but after the third time, there is no point in continuing this conversation between us.

You have a good day now, you hear me.

 

[Taken]

Last Days?

* Every natural bodily living man Has and Shall experience their Personal last day of natural mortal life.

* Hundreds of OT prophecies Have been fulfilled. The Greatest Being Gods First Greatest Tribulation Sent down from Heaven.
(Earths Destruction - ie. The Great Flood.)

* Hundreds of NT prophecies Have and Are being fulfilled. The Greatest Being
These Last Days When God Sent Jesus down from Heaven.
(Heb 1:2)

* Hundreds of prophecies (by ACTS of men) Have been, Are being fulfilled...
~ rumors of wars, wars,
~ nation against nation,
~ high level corruption, (governing powers)
~ lies turned into acceptable truths, (propaganda easily, widely distributed)
~ false preachers (sought after and followed)
~ parents failing to raise their own children (failing to teach godly principles)
~ family separations promoted, advocated, encouraged.
~ increase of diseases
~ increase of fear And false slippery slope solutions.
~ can’t tell men from women
~ free for all (theft, distribution, enslavement, moral compass decline)
~ increase oppression, murder, enslavement, thefts, lies.
~ increase in Knowledge (both true and false)
~ increase in Science fields (both good and wicked/evil)
~ increase in Advocation and Tolerances of Lies, Theft, Immorality.
~ increase in Promotion of DOUBT of the Lord God.

* Hundreds of prophecies (by ACTS of God) Have been, Are being fulfilled...
~ ALL called SIGNS. (Previews of sorts, in particular AREAS OF the World of what SHALL come IN “THE” Last Days, in ALL the World.
~ Fears
~ Chaos
~ Droughts
~ Fires Destroying Forrest lands
~ Floods
~ Crop eating insects
~ Famines
~ Earthquakes
~ Sun light withheld/covered
~ Wondrous Cosmic events
~ Inner (unseen Peace given to particular individuals)
~ Inner (unseen Peace withheld from particular individuals)

* “THE” Last Days (by ACTS of God) Shall Be fulfilled....
~ Destructions OF the Earth increase.(portions ie 1/3 of earth)
~ Gospel Preaching TO and Saving OF Israel (the People, Tribes)
~ Gospel Preaching Thereafter TO the Whole World (via a Holy Angel).
~ Separation of the Divided (ie. with and without the Lord God)
~ A Remnant OF “mortal” BELIEVERS...remain alive ON Earth...(mortal)
~ A Congregation OF “CONVERTED” “mortal” Believers...return TO Earth...Having been “MADE” immortal)
~ Son of Man...(Called Gods Word) RETURNS TO EARTH...(no longer “humbled”, but rather “RETURNS WITH POWER” (Gods Power is Called CHRIST).
~ “He” Separates “AS WELL” divided Spiritual Beings (angels).
~ “Spiritual beings “AGAINST” Him, (removed FROM the face of the Earth.)
~ “He” claims “His”, Kingdom (Abraham’s Promised Land).
~ “He” claims “His”, Throne (king David’s Everlasting Throne, ie IN Jerusalem)
~ “He” Rules over:
His Kingdom, It’s immortal occupants.
~ “He” Rules over:
Mortal kingdoms, (nations) It’s mortal occupants.
~ WORLD PEACE “between mortal nations”, “mortal men” IS EFFECTED.
~ The DURATION of “this World Peace”, Lasts 1,000 Years.

~ ENDING of “THAT” 1,000 Years...
~ Fallen Angels...are released, have access to the face of the earth AND the Lower Heavens (ie clouds)
~ Mortal men...again exercise their FREEWILL to “FOLLOW”, yoke WITH in Agreement WITH fallen Angels (against God), and or; “FOLLOW”, yoke WITH other Mortal men, WHO themselves are influenced BY fallen Angels, and MAKE their “standing” Against the Lord God.
~ War between Holy and Fallen Spirits shall ensue.
~ Fallen Spirits SHALL be DEFEATED, and cast from the Face of the Earth Forever.
~ The Mortal Nations Effecting a War Against The Lords Kingdom, SHALL BE DEFEATED, by, through, of: “the Sword of the Spoken Word of God”.
~ The Mortals (individuals) Freely Choosing their Belief and Standing WITH the Lord God...SHALL be “bodily Killed...soul saved”.
~ The Mortals (individuals) Freely Choosing their Belief and Standing AGAINST the Lord God...SHALL be “bodily Killed”...soul NOT saved”.

~ THEREAFTER...All “men” raised bodily, (via POWER of God returning Living souls to ALL “mens” bodies.)
~ ALL “men” SEE the Judge (Christ Jesus).
~ ALL “men” (because THEY SEE), Shall Believe and Worship (bow down) to Him. (This Prophecy thus then fulfilled)
.......PROPHECY:
Isa 45:23
Pss 22:27
Rom 14:11
Phil 2:0
Rev 1:7

~ THEREAFTER...”Sentencing”. (According TO: the EVIDENCE, IN Gods BOOK(S).
~ THE BOOK(S)...”EVIDENCE”, reveals, WHICH men while ALIVE IN THEIR NATURAL FLESH BODILY LIFE (ie BEFORE their BODILY LIFE...ie Blood LIFE of the moral body....physically DIED)...
~ 1) Flat out REJECTED and Stood AGAINST Belief IN God and His Word...
THEIR Name WILL Have Been BLOTTED OUT of Gods BOOK OF LIFE.
No Name of a man appearing? No Keeping Of the Lord God of “THAT unknown man”.
~ 2) Mortal men WHILE ALIVE IN their FLESH, PAID ATTENTION to Scriptural Revealing “OF THESE LAST DAYS’ (Heb 1:2) OF God Sending His Word to Earth, in the Likeness AS a man, (A specific Likeness OF a “SINLESS” man, A specific Likeness AS a “Faithful, Humbled, Jewish, Man-Servant OF God”
~ Such MORTAL men WHO....“Listened, Heard, Believed, Converted, via GIVING their TRUE “heartful” word/testimony of BELIEF, and TRUE “heartful” Word/testimony to GIVE their BODILY LIFE unto DEATH (via crucifixion WITH Jesus’ Body)....HAVE their NAMES entered INTO the Lambs “BOOK OF LIFE” ( such names are NEVER subject to being BLOTTED OUT.)
~ The BOOK(S) of LIFE, are the EVIDENCE that determines a individual mans eternal Judgement and Fate.....(forever WITH, or forever WITHOUT the Lord God Almighty)

~ ANOTHER “BOOK”... (of Gods Evidence) “FOR” REWARDS, treasures stored up IN Heaven).
~ THIS “BOOK” contains ALL the “WORKS” (charity, helping, aiding, giving, leaving aside for others to freely take, etc.) “THAT individual men DID ... TO Glorify Gods Great Name.......”
~ WITH A CAVEAT.....!!
“IF” “a man” accepts the glory FOR his “helping, charity, acts”...THAT IS, his reward.
“IF” “a man” gives charity, acts....AND and the SAME TIME “GIVES God the Credit for that mans “ability” to “give charity, aid, etc......God SHALL REWARD, “that giving man”, “with Gods Rewards”.
(Matt 16:27)
(Isa 26:8)
** (Matt 6:2)

~THEREAFTER....PROPHECY OF Separation of the Divided Accomplished.
~THEREAFTER....Prophecy of New Heavens, New Earth, Men upon the Face of the Earth Immortal, Immortal men SEE God As He is, Only Light upon the Earth. Sin, Wickedness, Evil, Darkness, Disease, Wars, Suffering, Sorrow, Death, etc. ERADICATED from the face of the earth.
~ AS it is IN Heaven, SO ALSO, shall it be UPON the Earth...forever.
(Matt 6:10)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Robert Gwin]

That answers the first question of why you look for a greater tribulation to come than was put on Christ although it is written "nor shall ever be" after the sum total of all tribulations were put upon Him. So, thank you, you have stated the crux of the problem.

But what "system" to you refer to? Surely you refer to the unbelief of those who not believe all that is written, but believe rather what their eyes have seen rather than what was told them. Surely, you, like they, are not referring to the fact that all that Jesus said would "shortly take place" and that has taken place "soon" thereafter according to just how He said it would occur, rather than how it was believed for not having seen it occur against the way it was said it would occur. Which is to say, you and they have believed what you have seen rather than what is written--so don't tell me what is written. I you have a question about what is written, ask it and I will answer. But do not continue to assume that you are at all qualified to bring scripture to the table--because you are not.

What is written that you have not acknowledged or understood, is that what was to come was not at all what you have expected, but what is actually written--that these days would be "as the days of Noah" where most would not perceive anything of what was actually taking place; that Jesus laid down His body, saying, "take, eat, this is my body", which was then revealed after gross misunderstanding (just as what I have been telling you has been grossly misunderstood), as being and act by Jesus of giving His body to His church, of which He was to only be the Head. Therefore, Paul came to say, "for me, to live is Christ"--which is to say "for me, to live is the Son of God!"--that same claim that got Jesus crucified! Nonetheless, Paul was correct to say it in that way, because that is what is written of what Jesus said would occur rather than what has been believed. What Jesus said that should have been believed about Jesus' body being given to the church, is how He said He would do it--and why you believe that all He said has not yet occurred, even thought He said it would and it has unbeknownst to these many generations, has been occurring but unseen to the blind in this way: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which what--you think He has not done, because He has been doing so in the spirit, which is His coming [again] in the power and glory of God (whom is spirit) which you have not seen?

Thus, I have been telling you all that has occurred just as it is written. Which has been occurring just as it is also written, just as Paul went on to reveal that all this would come, not as you "expect" as Jesus said, "but each one in his own order." But not seeing, nor even hearing or acknowledging all of what is written, many have not believed.

As for not wanting to hear what is actually true if it does not agree with what you have come to believe and are holding fast to attempting to hold the door of revelations closed against the power of God, your response indicates that you do not want to hear it, but also that you need to hear it.

Time will tell if either of us is correct Scott. Not hard to understand that is it sir? Right now we are simply speaking opinion, you say it has already happened, I say it has not. If Jesus returns and there is no great tribulation that preceeds it, then obviously I was in error sir.

 

[dad]

Dad, your timeline of events is a tad out, in my humble opinion. You have ignored that Moses recorded that from the time that Jacob took his family down to Egypt until God led them out that they had sojourned in Egypt for exactly 430 years. You are saying that Exodus 12:40-41 is wrong because of your manipulation of the scriptures to say what you want them to say. It is a misunderstanding of Galatians 3:17 on your part and that of many commentators. If you want to hold to the truth you have to accept Stephen's statement that Abraham began to receive the Abrahamic Covenant while he was still in Ur of the Chaldeans in Acts

The point was that there are different opinions. I don't know much about it, and have not looked into it. What I wondered was why your claim of 660 years did not fit the 430 years. I also find it thin ice to be walking on to claim all that ended in 1948 for some reason. Therefore, while it is fine to have that as an opinion, it seems not fine to express it as fact.

Acts 7:2-4: - 2 And he said, "Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3 and said to him, 'Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.' 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell.

​

What is your point using this verse? How does that fact God appeared to Abraham fit into 1948, or how long the Hebrews stayed in Egypt?

NKJV


We should also note that the father that Stephen referenced in verse 4 was Noah, with whom Abraham spent many years within Babylon hiding from Nimrod who wanted to have him kill as a child when he was born. and also, just before he left Ur, to go to Haran with his father.

That is interesting. I had thought that the two were contemporary, but that we only knew that from Jewish traditions passed down. If you are correct, this means Scripture confirms it. Do you have a source that shows it was Noah?

What does this mean? It means that Abraham was born around the year 2152 BC and God began the establishment of the Abrahamic covenant over many encounters with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob spanning some 240 year, assuming that Abraham was 50 years old when God first began speaking to him..

So that affects the 430 years, and forces us to accept 1948...how exactly? It is one thing to say many commentators were wrong, it is another to be fuzzy and have no clear case yourself. I also did not see any response from you about the main crux of the verse that talks about four generations in Gen 15, regarding the iniquity of the Amonites? That was a reason given and associated with the four generations. So how do you say that 1948 was the best time that some long gone people had their cup of iniquity full?

 

[Jay Ross]

@dad it was because you kept finding fault in what I have posted from faulty sources that I said: -

Dad, I can tell you once, I can tell you twice but after the third time, there is no point in continuing this conversation between us.

Why are you trying to provoke me with your faulty logic and information. What parts of the Bible are true to you? Why can you not read the bible in its right context?

Genesis 15:16: - But in the fourth age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Today the Amorite people, who we know from scripture, were not all killed, but who lived around and in the Land of Canaan in ancient times, today are still living in and around the land of Canaan. Originally, they were Baal worshippers, but today they are an Islamic people group, and the iniquities of the Amorite people group is not yet complete because they claim that Jesus is not the Son of God which is at loggerheads with the "Christian Bible."

Galatians 3:17: - And this I say that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in that it should make the promise of no effect.

This verse tells us that the final part of the Abrahamic Covenant was given to Jacob, just before he journeyed down to Egypt, such that 430 years later, the "law" was given at Mt Sinai. This confirms that the length of time that Israel sojourned in the Land of Egypt was in fact 430 years.

The Abrahamic covenant was revealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob slowly over a period of some 240 years.

Now i can tell you once, I can tell you a second time, but after the third time, there is no point in continuing this conversation. If you want to have the last say on our conversation, then please respond, but it will not mean that you have presented a convincing argument.

Have a good day now, you hear me.

 

[dad]

@dad it was because you kept finding fault in what I have posted from faulty sources that I said: -


Why are you trying to provoke me with your faulty logic and information. What parts of the Bible are true to you? Why can you not read the bible in its right context?

Genesis 15:16: - But in the fourth age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Today the Amorite people, who we know from scripture, were not all killed, but who lived around and in the Land of Canaan in ancient times, today are still living in and around the land of Canaan. Originally, they were Baal worshippers, but today they are an Islamic people group, and the iniquities of the Amorite people group is not yet complete because they claim that Jesus is not the Son of God which is at loggerheads with the "Christian Bible."

So are you claiming that their iniquity was full in 1948? If so why did God order they be killed by Israel in ancient history? You have not addressed the point.

Galatians 3:17: - And this I say that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in that it should make the promise of no effect.

So if the commentaries you dislike say it was 430 years from the time Abraham got the promise till the Hebrews left Egypt, how does that conflict with the verse? It doesn't. So if you want to badmouth several commentaries you need specific verses that show they are wrong. Maybe they are, but so far you have not even made a cohesive case.

This verse tells us that the final part of the Abrahamic Covenant was given to Jacob, just before he journeyed down to Egypt, such that 430 years later, the "law" was given at Mt Sinai. This confirms that the length of time that Israel sojourned in the Land of Egypt was in fact 430 years.

OK so where in that verse is Jacob even mentioned? Is Jacob even mentioned anywhere in that chapter? The verse is talking about how the law did not mean that His promises to Abraham were void. How do you get Jacob from that?

The Abrahamic covenant was revealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob slowly over a period of some 240 years.

It was made by God at a certain time with Abraham. How does it matter that we today are still learning stuff about it, or that Issac was learning more about it??

By the way this is no a conversation but a chance for you to back up your claim that Gen 15 referred to 1948. From the response from you so far, I can see why you want to run.

 

[Jay Ross]

@dad you are being a troll.

It is you who is not accepting the evidence provided in my posts by posting untruths about what i have posted.

Oh, I am not running away. It is a pointless conversation with you.

bye

 

[dad]

@dad you are being a troll.

It is you who is not accepting the evidence provided in my posts by posting untruths about what i have posted.

Oh, I am not running away. It is a pointless conversation with you.

bye

I saw no addressing how the Amorites reached full wickedness in 1948 from you. In fact I didn't see any cohesive argument or support for the claim you made about Gen 15 referring to 1948. Guess you just thought you'd slide it by.

 

[Jay Ross]

I saw no addressing how the Amorites reached full wickedness in 1948 from you. In fact I didn't see any cohesive argument or support for the claim you made about Gen 15 referring to 1948. Guess you just thought you'd slide it by.

What I said was this: -

Genesis 15:16: - But in the fourth age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Today the Amorite people, who we know from scripture, were not all killed, but who lived around and in the Land of Canaan in ancient times, today are still living in and around the land of Canaan. Originally, they were Baal worshippers, but today they are an Islamic people group, and the iniquities of the Amorite people group is not yet complete because they claim that Jesus is not the Son of God which is at loggerheads with the "Christian Bible."

Notice that Genesis 15:16 tells us that in 1948, when some of Abraham's descendants return to the land of Canaan that the iniquities of the Amorite people group is not yet complete, that is their iniquities are not fully reached as you are suggest that I have said in 1948. Their iniquities will be full in around 20-25 years' time when the gentile kings of the earth are judged for trampling God's earthly hosts since 1948. They are also being influenced by the fourth beast and the Little Horn

Dan 7:7-12: - 7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
. . . . .

11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

The Amorite people group/nation will be judged for their iniquities in our near future when the kings of the earth are judged at the same time as the heavenly hosts.

You are deliberately twisting what I have said, using a false argument, in an attempt to discredit what I have posted.

You are being a troll.

 

[dad]

What I said was this: -



Notice that Genesis 15:16 tells us that in 1948, when some of Abraham's descendants return to the land of Canaan that the iniquities of the Amorite people group is not yet complete, that is their iniquities are not fully reached as you are suggest that I have said in 1948. Their iniquities will be full in around 20-25 years' time when the gentile kings of the earth are judged for trampling God's earthly hosts since 1948.

The Amorites are gone. They say some genetic relation probably exists with some peoples in the mid east. We can't say their iniquity is incomplete now. By the time God ordered them all killed one assumes their iniquity was then complete. They also existed then! Gen 15 says nothing about 1948.

Look and see

gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Nothing here about 1948 at all. It was after that four hundred years God talked about in verse 13 that the Amorites would be ordered killed by God. That would be after they left Egypt, and were conquering the promised land. By then the iniquity of the Amorites would be complete. That in no way relates to 1964, or 1872, or 1948 etc. It has to do with Hebrews returning after some 400 years or so to the land. At that time the wickedness of the Amorites would be complete. There is no hint of 1948 whatsoever.

They are also being influenced by the fourth beast and the Little Horn

They do not exist actually, unless you count genertic traces as a nation of people!

The Amorite people group/nation will be judged for their iniquities in our near future when the kings of the earth are judged at the same time as the heavenly hosts.

No they won't unless they existed. Where are they? Are they listed in the United Nations? Have they been at war with other nations lately? No. You are tacking on verses regarding the very end times as if it meant that the Amorites still did not have their iniquity complete, and ignoring the four hundred years in verse 13 as if it 'really' meant 1948. Sorry. That is not a strong bible case and not even rational or sound.

You are deliberately twisting what I have said, using a false argument, in an attempt to discredit what I have posted.

You are being a troll.

Your poor loser false accusations are noted.

 

[ScottA]

Time will tell if either of us is correct Scott. Not hard to understand that is it sir? Right now we are simply speaking opinion, you say it has already happened, I say it has not. If Jesus returns and there is no great tribulation that preceeds it, then obviously I was in error sir.

Again, you refer to what I have been telling you as "opinion", after I have again testified to the fact that it is not. You do not believe me, because you have also not believed all that Christ said that is now written, but only believe part.

So be it.