Justified by Works

[Eternally Grateful]

He thanks God that through Christ it occurs--because Christ brings the body of sin to nothing (Ro 6:6).
That description of a Jew under the Law who is mastered by sin (Ro 6:14) in Romans 7 is PRE-CHRIST.

No it is not prechrist.

Paul did nto say before I came to christ,. He said right here right now..

No, those Gentiles don't even know the Law, so how are they "under Law"?

Your right they are not under the law. But the law would still curse them, because they have sinned and fall short of Gods glory

It says they "by nature do the things contained in the Law" and are "doers of the Law" because the Spirit is writing the Law on their hearts as promised in Jer 31:31-34.

yes, Because God wrote the law in our DNA

See, that's where it's difficult: the Christian who does not walk in Grace, as you say, does not do the Law, and is condemned, not justified.

Sorry, a child of God does walk in the law. He can not live in sin, because he has been born of God.

Yeah, if they walk in Grace, they're doers of the Law who will be justified in the future.

Thats works, thats not grace.

Your trying to earn salvation!

 

[GracePeace]

no. The only way it could be both is if we could be saved by keeping the law. We can;t. The law condemns us where we stand

Yes, it is: those who walk in the spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 8:4).

The are not condemned because of their faith. Not because they keep the law

Nope, "doers of the Law will be justified", and the Christian who does not walk in faith is "condemned" because "anything that does not proceed from faith is sin" (Ro 14:23).

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

it is our faith that saves us, Because we can not keep the law. hence the law curses us

Yeah, both are true, as stated.

No, it would be counted as works. Because even paul said it is not by works of righteousness (good works) which we have done, but by his mercy.

Nope, "works" is what proceeds from us, and pertains to "a righteousness of my own", but it is "God's righteousness" that is "revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), thus is, categorically, not "works".

Whatever dude

You've already agreed with the constituents of that argument separately, now you want to deny them when they're put together.

It is relevent, Because NO ONE HAS KEPT THE LAW. HENCE NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY KEPT THE LAW!!!

It's not relevant, because the Gentile believers are "doers of the Law".
You think somehow that by redefining "righteous requirements of the Law", that is going to overturn the fact that Gentile believers are "doers of the Law" who "will be justified", but, I'm sorry, that's not how that works. LOL

 

[GracePeace]

No it is not prechrist.

Yup, it is.
"When we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, aroused by the Law": a) it's PAST-TENSE ("were"), and b) Christians aren't in the flesh but in the spirit (Ro 8:9).
The guy in Romans 7 can't fulfill the Law, but Paul can (Ro 8:9).
The guy in Romans 7 is full of covetousness--but no covetous man has any inheritance in God's Kingdom.
I could offer more proofs, but we can start there.

Paul did nto say before I came to christ,. He said right here right now..

You're misunderstanding his literary device.

Your right they are not under the law. But the law would still curse them, because they have sinned and fall short of Gods glory

Irrelevant, they're doers of the Law who will be justified for being doers of the Law, and all while being Under Grace, not Under Law.

yes, Because God wrote the law in our DNA

Nah, I'll go with it being a fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34.

Sorry, a child of God does walk in the law. He can not live in sin, because he has been born of God.

You already admitted Christians don't always walk in Grace, and you even tried to use Romans 7 as a descriptor of Christian living, so, obviously, you don't believe Christians don't sin.

Thats works, thats not grace.

Nope, "works" are what proceed from humans, thus that word pertains to "a righteousness of my own", but when Christians walk in faith, that is "God's righteousness from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), thus, categorically, not "works".

Your trying to earn salvation!

Maybe so. I need to understand how all of these verses fit together, and how to live them out.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, it is: those who walk in the spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 8:4).

If they are not saved by grace they are still
Condemned

You can’t say you are good enough to earn Gods love when you can’t even keep his standard

Nope, "doers of the Law will be justified", and the Christian who does not walk in faith is "condemned" because "anything that does not proceed from faith is sin" (Ro 14:23).

That’s not what Jesus said

He who believes is not condemned he who does not believe is condemned already

The wage of sin is death all it take is one sin

The gift of God is eternal life (not just live. Eternal life)

Yeah, both are true, as stated.

Nope, "works" is what proceeds from us, and pertains to "a righteousness of my own", but it is "God's righteousness" that is "revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), thus is, categorically, not "works".

You work to earn something

You can’t earn a gift. A gift is paid by the giver

If the giver demands works to pay for it. It’s no longer a gift. And the giver decieved you

You've already agreed with the constituents of that argument separately, now you want to deny them when they're put together.

It's not relevant, because the Gentile believers are "doers of the Law".
You think somehow that by redefining "righteous requirements of the Law", that is going to overturn the fact that Gentile believers are "doers of the Law" who "will be justified", but, I'm sorry, that's not how that works. LOL

It is revelent

Gentiles are not doers. These particular believers are but because they are saved not to get saved. You have it backwards

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yup, it is.
"When we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, aroused by the Law": a) it's PAST-TENSE ("were"), and b) Christians aren't in the flesh but in the spirit (Ro 8:9).
The guy in Romans 7 can't fulfill the Law, but Paul can (Ro 8:9).
The guy in Romans 7 is full of covetousness--but no covetous man has any inheritance in God's Kingdom.
I could offer more proofs, but we can start there.

You’re in the flesh anytime you are self focused and not others focused. That does not stop when you get saved

You're misunderstanding his literary device.

No you are

Irrelevant, they're doers of the Law who will bjustified for being doers of the Law, and all while being Under Grace, not Under Law.

Again your putting them under law not grace. They will not be saved

Nah, I'll go with it being a fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34.

I will go with the cross and not
My self righteousness

You already admitted Christians don't always walk in Grace, and you even tried to use Romans 7 as a descriptor of Christian living, so, obviously, you don't believe Christians don't sin.

You’re right so they can’t keep the law. So they will never be saved because of how good they are. They will always fall short

Nope, "works" are what proceed from humans, thus that word pertains to "a righteousness of my own", but when Christians walk in faith, that is "God's righteousness from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), thus, categorically, not "works".

Read Roman’s 4 and stop trying to make works something they are not

Maybe so. I need to understand how all of these verses fit together, and how to live them out.

You first need to be saved otherwise non of that matters.

We all do

 

[GracePeace]

If they are not saved by grace they are still
Condemned

No, the one who doesn't walk in grace is condemned (Ro 14:23). It wasn't for wont of grace, but for not walking in it, but walking after the flesh (which you admitted Christians do) that he will ne condemned, not justified, and die and not inherit life (Ro 8:12,13) bc of not doing the Law by the spirit (Ro 2:6-16, 8:4).

You can’t say you are good enough to earn Gods love when you can’t even keep his standard

Irrelevant, doers of the Law will be justified.

That’s not what Jesus said
He who believes is not condemned he who does not believe is condemned already

So I whooped you in Paul, so you want me to whoop you in John now? I'm on my phone, now, so I can't type that much till later God willing.

The wage of sin is death all it take is one sin

The gift of God is eternal life (not just live. Eternal life)

It's a gift "in Christ", but you admitted not all remain in Christ but walk after the flesh sometimes, even trying to say Ro 7 sinful life was Christian.

You work to earn something

God works in us.

You can’t earn a gift. A gift is paid by the giver

Yep, when we walk in the spirit, in faith, that's God not us. Already solved this.

If the giver demands works to pay for it. It’s no longer a gift. And the giver decieved you

It's not us, it's God. No issues there.

It is revelent

Nope

Gentiles are not doers. These particular believers are but because they are saved not to get saved. You have it backwards

It says "the Gentiles", and the context indicates that they're believers.

They WILL BE JUSTIFIED because they are doers of the Law.

 

[GracePeace]

You’re in the flesh anytime you are self focused and not others focused. That does not stop when you get saved

Yeah, and those who live that way are condemned, not justified, in the present, and in the future, without repentance, and they will die and not live (Ro 8:12,13).

No you are

What is the literary device I'm misunderstanding?

Again your putting them under law not grace. They will not be saved

Nope, they're fulfilling the Law by Grace as Paul says .

I will go with the cross and not
My self righteousness

Again, walking by faith is God's righteousness, thus it isn't "works" which pertains to our righteousness.

The issue is you think its just "believe", but its clear it's ALSO "walk in faith".

You’re right so they can’t keep the law.

So, you DON'T believe that Christians don't sin, so quit abusing 1 John as if it proves your false idea thaf "Christians don't sin".

No, Gentile believers are said to be "doers of the law" who will for that reason be justified in the future. You can't wiggle out of that.

So they will never be saved because of how good they are. They will always fall short

Doers of the Law will be justified. You don't like that. Not my problem. It's in Scripture.

Read Roman’s 4 and stop trying to make works something they are not

I've read it.
We're justified because God forgives us. To the one who does not have the good deeds but believes his faith is counted for righteousness. That's how God is righteous--in declaring the ungodly justified. To deny that would be to suppress God's righteousness, and to call God unfaithful and unrighteous.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, the one who doesn't walk in grace is condemned (Ro 14:23).

Then Jesus lied. John 3, John 4 John 5 and John 6 and many other places. As did Paul

It wasn't for wont of grace, but for not walking in it, but walking after the flesh (which you admitted Christians do) that he will ne condemned, not justified, and die and not inherit life (Ro 8:12,13) bc of not doing the Law by the spirit (Ro 2:6-16, 8:4).

Walking in the flesh will get me hurt not unsaved. It will prevent me from producing fruit not get me unsaved. It will cause god to chasten me. Not make me unsaved

Irrelevant, doers of the Law will be justified.

Your pet verse will come to haunt you one day

So I whooped you in Paul, so you want me to whoop you in John now? I'm on my phone, now, so I can't type that much till later God willing.

Dude you have not whooped anyone

Your a master of your own world

It's a gift "in Christ", but you admitted not all remain in Christ but walk after the flesh sometimes, even trying to say Ro 7 sinful life was Christian.

A gift god gave it to you. You either receive it or you reject it

God works in us.

Yea by one sacrifice he perfected for ever those being sanctified. I, like Paul, am confident of this that he who began a good work in me will
Complete it. Why you think God will
Fail is beyond me

Yep, when we walk in the spirit, in faith, that's God not us. Already solved this.

God does not walk for you

It's not us, it's God. No issues there.

Keep
Thinking that

Nope

It says "the Gentiles", and the context indicates that they're believers.

They WILL BE JUSTIFIED because they are doers of the Law.

No. Because they are still cursed by the law.

Until you realize you can not keep the law in a way to save yourself you will remain blind to the law

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yeah, and those who live that way are condemned, not justified, in the present, and in the future, without repentance, and they will die and not live (Ro 8:12,13).

What is the literary device I'm misunderstanding?

Nope, they're fulfilling the Law by Grace as Paul says .

Again, walking by faith is God's righteousness, thus it isn't "works" which pertains to our righteousness.

The issue is you think its just "believe", but its clear it's ALSO "walk in faith".

So, you DON'T believe that Christians don't sin, so quit abusing 1 John as if it proves your false idea thaf "Christians don't sin".

No, Gentile believers are said to be "doers of the law" who will for that reason be justified in the future. You can't wiggle out of that.

Doers of the Law will be justified. You don't like that. Not my problem. It's in Scripture.

I've read it.
We're justified because God forgives us. To the one who does not have the good deeds but believes his faith is counted for righteousness. That's how God is righteous--in declaring the ungodly justified. To deny that would be to suppress God's righteousness, and to call God unfaithful and unrighteous.

Your unbearable

Your so focused on self and how good you think you are you will never see the truth of how bad you are

Until you repent no one can help you.

God has exposed you. I am done. I will pray for you

 

[GracePeace]

Your unbearable

Your so focused on self and how good you think you are you will never see the truth of how bad you are

Until you repent no one can help you.

God has exposed you. I am done. I will pray for you

Lol you got whooped.
Glad I don't have to keep answering your same empty questions over and over.

 

[GracePeace]

See, that's where it's difficult: the Christian who does not walk in Grace, as you say, does not do the Law, and is condemned, not justified.

It occurred to me this is like another doctrine: sin is also lawlessness.

1 Jn 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness...

Not all breaking of the Law is a result of sinful desire (eg, the Priests break the Law serving in the Temple on the Sabbath), but all indulging in sinful desire also, as a necessary by-product, registers as a breaking of the Law.

In a similar way (as lawbreaking is not necessarily to be approached in a straightforward manner), it could be said that lawkeeping is not to be approached in a straightforward manner: grace is also keeping the Law, so that keeping the Law is not necessarily the aim, but a by-product.

 

[GracePeace]

-
That's not Christianity that you are selling @GracePeace

CHRISTianity, is.,. "no one comes to the Father, but by ME", Jesus said. John 14:6

You just denied this...... and replaced Jesus with your Law Keeping., again.

Do you not even understand that "The Born again are not under the Law, but under Grace"?

Has your cult not informed you that the Bride of Christ, the born again Believers, are only found in the NT, under a NEW Covenant?

See, the Law you are obsessed on, is OLD TESTAMENT,....the Law came by MOSES... and the NT has come... and Jesus is the author of a NEW COVENANT, that is the Grace of God found in The Cross of Christ.

Listen, the Law demands righteousness, that you can't provide, because "ALL have sinned".. = Yes, YOU.. .So, you as a SINNER trying to keep the law that defines you as a sinner, is a foolish ,religious, self righteous game does not end well for that player, after they die.

Comprehend? :

Instead, Go to God through Christ, and find God's Justification for the SINNER, as : "while we were YET SINNERS,.. .Christ died for US".

See that?

That is where you find God and Salvation and eternal life,, and never do you find justification before God based on Law, Lawkeeping, or commandments or commandment keeping.... as the Law was given to show you that you are a SINNER< needing to Be forgiven..
And God provided this, strictly as "Justification by Faith"... based on the Shed Blood and Death of Jesus on the Cross.

You didn't read before responding (Proverbs 18:13) : I merely defined being under Grace as walking in faith, by which the Law is fulfilled (Ro 3:31, 8:4), and nowhere told anyone they are to serve by Law, or be "under Law" (actually, I reject that idea).

For you, EITHER Romans 4 ("God justifies the ungodly") OR Romans 2 ("the doers of the Law will be justified") is true, but not BOTH; for me, BOTH are true.

You don't even know the material you are responding to.

 

[Wynona]

Walking by faith is not "works".

"Works" is "a righteousness of my own"; walking in faith is God's righteousness (Ro 1:17; 14:5,23).

It seems you aren't against works at all when done in faith. Its more as if you are saying not all works are works based righteousness. I agree. Forgive me if thats what you were already saying and Im overthinking.


Titus 2:13-15

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


I believe Jesus wanted us to go after good works of faith. No boasting in that. God gave us the faith and the grace to labor. But working under the law of Moses brings condemnation. I think there's a lot of confusion about that.

 

[GracePeace]

It seems you aren't against works at all when done in faith. Its more as if you are saying not all works are works based righteousness. I agree. Forgive me if thats what you were already saying and Im overthinking.


Titus 2:13-15

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


I believe Jesus wanted us to go after good works of faith. No boasting in that. God gave us the faith and the grace to labor. But working under the law of Moses brings condemnation. I think there's a lot of confusion about that.

I had to understand why Scripture said we couldn't be justified by works of Law (Ro 3) yet only doers of the Law would be justified (Ro 2)--the issue is WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT whether there must be righteousness for justification on the Day of judgment. Walking by faith is God's righteousness (ro 1:17, 14:5), and breaking that rule is sin that condemns the believer (Ro 14:23), and walking in faith will justify the believer (Ro 2), because those who walk by the Spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 3:31, 8:4). "Good works" that do not result from faith are "a righteousness of my own"--faith is what God's love works in the heart. That is the difference.

Was it God's love that persuaded you, the New Covenant of God's Law written on the heart, or was it your own volition, apart from God? That's what "works" are versus "God's righteousness".

 

[GracePeace]

I had to understand why Scripture said we couldn't be justified by works of Law (Ro 3) yet only doers of the Law would be justified (Ro 2)--the issue is WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT whether there must be righteousness for justification on the Day of judgment. Walking by faith is God's righteousness (ro 1:17, 14:5), and breaking that rule is sin that condemns the believer (Ro 14:23), and walking in faith will justify the believer (Ro 2), because those who walk by the Spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 3:31, 8:4). "Good works" that do not result from faith are "a righteousness of my own"--faith is what God's love works in the heart. That is the difference.

Was it God's love that persuaded you, the New Covenant of God's Law written on the heart, or was it your own volition, apart from God? That's what "works" are versus "God's righteousness".

@Wynona One "righteousness" comes from knowing God, and reveals God, the other comes from someone disconnected from God, and reveals their own self, leading to boasting.

 

[Wynona]

I had to understand why Scripture said we couldn't be justified by works of Law (Ro 3) yet only doers of the Law would be justified (Ro 2)--the issue is WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT whether there must be righteousness for justification on the Day of judgment. Walking by faith is God's righteousness (ro 1:17, 14:5), and breaking that rule is sin that condemns the believer (Ro 14:23), and walking in faith will justify the believer (Ro 2), because those who walk by the Spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 3:31, 8:4). "Good works" that do not result from faith are "a righteousness of my own"--faith is what God's love works in the heart. That is the difference.

Was it God's love that persuaded you, the New Covenant of God's Law written on the heart, or was it your own volition, apart from God? That's what "works" are versus "God's righteousness".

Im grateful for the clarity in this.

I get frustrated with anti-works teaching because believing it really hurt my faith in the past.

However, I no longer feel it's my jurisdiction to act as a teacher of doctrine. Scripture is against women acting as teachers over men because Eve was decieved in the Garden of Eden.

I have a lot of opinions and convictions but I believe Scripture on that. It was hard to stop arguing so much on here and Im still not perfect. I still am working out what Im released to speak on or not in a forum setting. But the more I back off, the more it seems God uses qualified men to teach with clarity on doctrine.

I see a lot more balance of views than I used to. Besides, I have plenty of topics I do feel qualified to share wisdom on without violating the commands in 1 Timothy.

 

[GracePeace]

Im grateful for the clarity in this.

I get frustrated with anti-works teaching because believing it really hurt my faith in the past.

However, I no longer feel it's my jurisdiction to act as a teacher of doctrine. Scripture is against women acting as teachers over men because Eve was decieved in the Garden of Eden.

I have a lot of opinions and convictions but I believe Scripture on that. It was hard to stop arguing so much on here and Im still not perfect. I still am working out what Im released to speak on or not in a forum setting. But the more I back off, the more it seems God uses qualified men to teach with clarity on doctrine.

I see a lot more balance of views than I used to. Besides, I have plenty of topics I do feel qualified to share wisdom on without violating the commands in 1 Timothy.

Yeah, I studied and begged God for clarity on the issue for years. It only took so long because I wouldn't stop boasting, which leads to God hiding truth.

I think Scripture says women can teach other women how to submit to their husbands, but that's different than teaching Scripture, of course. Women can also be deacons.

 

[Wynona]

Yeah, I studied and begged God for clarity on the issue for years. It only took so long because I wouldn't stop boasting, which leads to God hiding truth.

I think Scripture says women can teach other women how to submit to their husbands, but that's different than teaching Scripture, of course. Women can also be deacons.

Yes. Titus 2:3-5 based ministry for women is my passion. I see a strong need for it. Way stronger than the need for my arguing about salvation.

I never got results. I could post Scriptures that directly counter a post, and most people still approached me like a misguided soul in need of correction. And that's frustrating but not entirely bad either. I agree with Christian men behaving as authority figures.

Men tend to not concede, not value harmony over truth. They get results that way. Im a baby Mom. I don't have the energy.

Im loving joining threads in with less "skin in the game". Lately I just sit and watch brilliant posts and enjoy the show.

We gotta stop sinning and obey Jesus! But I don't need to be the one to convince!

 

[GracePeace]

Yes. Titus 2:3-5 based ministry for women is my passion. I see a strong need for it. Way stronger than the need for my arguing about salvation.

I never got results. I could post Scriptures that directly counter a post, and most people still approached me like a misguided soul in need of correction. And that's frustrating but not entirely bad either. I agree with Christian men behaving as authority figures.

Men tend to not concede, not value harmony over truth. They get results that way. Im a baby Mom. I don't have the energy.

Im loving joining threads in with less "skin in the game". Lately I just sit and watch brilliant posts and enjoy the show.

We gotta stop sinning and obey Jesus! But I don't need to be the one to convince!

The crazy thing is that people who know God will reject, outright, obvious truth--truth has many surfaces, contours, so they go with certain contours that are useful, and dismiss anything that threatens to take that provision they obtain, through confessing those particular truth contours, away. It's not necessarily unreasonable, but it's obvious what's going on.

 

[Wynona]

The crazy thing is that people who know God will reject, outright, obvious truth--truth has many surfaces, contours, so they go with certain contours that are useful, and dismiss anything that threatens to take that provision they obtain, through confessing those particular truth contours, away. It's not necessarily unreasonable, but it's obvious what's going on.

Sadly, I think western churches have fallen away or were just in the falling away stage in general.

New believers are taught Christianese phrases, but not Scripture in context. Then, the Christianese becomes what makes us feel okay, because Scripture becomes too much to endure.

We can get to the point where we see Scripture and not see it at the same time.