Justified by Works

[Eternally Grateful]

Not relevant: Paul says the Gentile believers are doers of the Law (how ever you want to define it--not relevant) who will be justified.

Not relevant?

There you go reader. Moses telling the Jews what the requirement of the law was is irrelevant

Paul telling jew and gentiles what the requirement was. is irrelevant

And James insinuating that if we even slip in one part. we are guilty, is irrelevant.

and he expects us to listen to him?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What relevance does it have that Paul was trying to humble the Jewish Christians in citing the Gentile believers as "doers of the Law" who would be "justified"? Are you saying Paul is a liar, and uses lies to humble Jewish Christians? Why would that work? Is that what you practice? LOL I think we both know the answer--you're endlessly dishonest.

It has every relevence int he world

1. it is why Jesus had to come and die
2. It proves your guilt and mine
3, it keeps our focus on Christ, not self. so we do not become proud pharisees who think we have made it..

 

[GracePeace]

Not relevant?

There you go reader. Moses telling the Jews what the requirement of the law was is irrelevant

Paul telling jew and gentiles what the requirement was. is irrelevant

And James insinuating that if we even slip in one part. we are guilty, is irrelevant.

and he expects us to listen to him?

I noted that Paul says doers of the Law will be justified, and then cites the Gentile believers as "doers of the Law".
Your argument against this is "No, that's not true".
You, separately, raised the question "What are the righteous requirements of the Law?"
It's not relevant, because, HOW EVER YOU DEFINE THAT, the Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law" who will be "justified" for being "doers of the Law".
LOL

 

[GracePeace]

It has every relevence int he world

1. it is why Jesus had to come and die
2. It proves your guilt and mine
3, it keeps our focus on Christ, not self. so we do not become proud pharisees who think we have made it..

Gentile believers are "doers of the Law".
The content which Paul cites is "do not steal" "do not commit adultery" and "do not commit idolatry" (Ro 2:20-22)--obvious things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I noted that Paul says doers of the Law will be justified, and then cites the Galatians.
Your argument against this is "No, that's not true".
You, separately, raised the question "What are the righteous requirements of the Law?"
It's not relevant, because, HOW EVER YOU DEFINE THAT, the Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law".
LOL

No

My argument is that you are interpreting it wrong

If you are going to heaven because you keep the law. You MUST meet the requirement.

otherwise. You can only get to heaven by grace.

doers of the law are evidence of being justified. Not a pr-requisite. Because even if we do the law. We have not kept it as required.

 

[GracePeace]

No

My argument is that you are interpreting it wrong

If you are going to heaven because you keep the law. You MUST meet the requirement.

otherwise. You can only get to heaven by grace.

doers of the law are evidence of being justified. Not a pr-requisite. Because even if we do the law. We have not kept it as required.

How am I "interpreting" it wrong?
Those who walk by the spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 8:4)--and the Gentile believers who walk by the spirit are deemed "doers of the law" who will be "justified".

You have a problem with that, I accept it.

NOW, as to how to square that with being saved by grace, etc, that really is the question.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Gentile believers are "doers of the Law".

next to jews, Your right,

But they have nto kept the law. Thats the part your refusing to acknolwdge nor do you even want to consider.

The content which Paul cites is "do not steal" "do not commit adultery" and "do not commit idolatry" (Ro 2:20)--obvious things.

Yes. But even if we do not do those things, we still have not kept the law. because it requires perfection.. Break one command, and your guilty.

 

[GracePeace]

next to jews, Your right,

But they have nto kept the law. Thats the part your refusing to acknolwdge nor do you even want to consider.

You are contradicting Paul, not me. Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law". The text is not going to change, no matter how many times you batter ram it. It is forever. It will not be moved.

Yes. But even if we do not do those things, we still have not kept the law. because it requires perfection.. Break one command, and your guilty.

"doers of the law will be justified"

 

[GracePeace]

next to jews, Your right,

But they have nto kept the law. Thats the part your refusing to acknolwdge nor do you even want to consider.

Yes. But even if we do not do those things, we still have not kept the law. because it requires perfection.. Break one command, and your guilty.

Again, you're calling Paul, who says, "doers of the Law... Gentile [believers]", a liar.

Paul says they are "doers of the Law"--and based on that they will be "justified".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How am I "interpreting" it wrong?
Those who walk by the spirit fulfill the Law (Ro 8:4)--

Yes, WHILE they walk in the spirit.

and the Gentile believers who walk by the spirit are deemed "doers of the law" who will be "justified".

No. Your trying to make it a prerequisite. it is not

You have a problem with that, I accept it.

NOW, as to how to square that with being saved by grace, etc, that really is the question.

Grace is unearned..

If your trying to earn it by your obedience, its not grace

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are contradicting Paul, not me. Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law". The text is not going to change, no matter how many times you batter ram it. It is forever. It will not be moved.

No I am not. I am interpreting him correctly to agree with what Moses, paul and james said.

"doers of the law will be justified"

Those justified will do the law..

it does not say they keep the law.

You don;t make a doctrine on one pet verse..

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, WHILE they walk in the spirit.

Excellent : you agree that sometimes Christians do not walk in the Spirit, then, right?

No. Your trying to make it a prerequisite. it is not

Grace is unearned..

If your trying to earn it by your obedience, its not grace

Both are true: Grace is unearned, and those who are doers of the Law are walking in Grace, the unearned gift of righteousness, God's righteousness by the gift of faith, "from faith to faith", not their own, so when they do the works, that is God doing the works ("yet not I but the grace with me", "Christ came and preached to you" though it was the minister who preached), they are walking in a gift of God's righteousness, not their own, and not earning it.

 

[GracePeace]

No I am not. I am interpreting him correctly to agree with what Moses, paul and james said.

Paul says they're doers of the law, who will be justified, but you want to say "No, that's not true."
You have the problem, not me.

Those justified will do the law..

So, now, you agree they're doers of the Law who will be (future tense) justified?

It does not say they keep the law.

It says they're "doers of the Law".

You don;t make a doctrine on one pet verse..

No, I seek to understand doctrines based on ALL the verses, whereas you are perfectly fine with hand-waving verses away so that you can stand on a few of the verses in the Bible and not all of them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Excellent : you agree that sometimes Christians do not walk in the Spirit, then, right?

I never denied it, thats why no matter who we are. Our salvation is kept by grace. because we continue to sin and fall short of gods glory (the requirement of the law)

Both are true: Grace is unearned, and those who are doers of the Law are walking in Grace,

But if they are doing the law to recieve Gods grace. then they are doing it to serve self. and it is not grace. we call those works.

the unearned gift of righteousness, God's righteousness by the gift of faith, "from faith to faith", not their own, so when they do the works, that is God doing the works ("yet not I but the grace with me", "Christ came and preached to you" though it was the minister who preached), they are walking in a gift of God's righteousness, not their own, and not earning it.

Your trying to get in through the back door.

If you do something to gain something, you are working for a reward. or for a wage

Grace is a gift It can not be earned, by doing anything. It is given by Gods mercy because we can;t earn it. otherwise it would nto be grace

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul says they're doers of the law, who will be justified, but you want to say "No, that's not true."
You have the problem, not me.

So, now, you agree they're doers of the Law who will be (future tense) justified?

No. I agree that those who are justified WILL do the law.. (not perfectly. but they will love because God loved them)

It says they're "doers of the Law".

They are.. Unlike the lost. who are not doers of the law

No, I seek to understand doctrines based on ALL the verses, whereas you are perfectly fine with hand-waving verses away so that you can stand on a few of the verses in the Bible and not all of them.

No. Your stuck on one verse. I gave you three verses, and you stated they are irrelevant, Yet they refute the one verse your stuck on when we take your interpretation of that verse

 

[GracePeace]

I never denied it, thats why no matter who we are. Our salvation is kept by grace. because we continue to sin and fall short of gods glory (the requirement of the law)

Wouldn't you agree that not walking after the spirit is also walking after the flesh (Ro 8:12,13)--that that is also "not remaining in Christ" (1 Jn 2:28), and "not doing the things you are completely convinced are acceptable to God, but doing things you are doubtful are correct" (Ro 14:5, 23)?

But if they are doing the law to recieve Gods grace. then they are doing it to serve self. and it is not grace. we call those works.

No, they're already in the Grace, and they're going to be justified in the future because they NOW are doing the Law.

Your trying to get in through the back door.

If you do something to gain something, you are working for a reward. or for a wage

Grace is a gift It can not be earned, by doing anything. It is given by Gods mercy because we can;t earn it. otherwise it would nto be grace

Nope, as you stated, Christians sometimes do not walk in grace, so that is their fault for not walking in grace. They have the gift, and they are to walk in it, and when they do they are doers of the Law.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wouldn't you agree that not walking after the spirit is also walking after the flesh (Ro 8:12,13)--that that is also "not remaining in Christ" (1 Jn 2:28), and "not doing the things you are completely convinced are acceptable to God, but doing things you are doubtful are correct" (Ro 14:5, 23)?

I agree with paul. the things I want to do. those I do not do. the things I do nto want to do. I end up doing. WHo will save me from this body of sin.

There is a war between the flesh and the spirit. so we will never in this lifetime earn salvation because of our obedience.

No, they're already in the Grace, and they're going to be justified in the future because they NOW are doing the Law.

No. then they are under law not under grace.

Nope, as you stated, Christians sometimes do not walk in grace, so that is their fault for not walking in grace. They have the gift, and they are to walk in it, and when they do they are doers of the Law.

Yes, But a christian does not earn salvation by keeping the law. The law condemns them where they stand..

But they do love because God first loved them, so by practice. they are doers of the law.

 

[GracePeace]

No. I agree that those who are justified WILL do the law.. (not perfectly. but they will love because God loved them)

Isn't it both? They're justified by faith in Christ, and they WILL BE JUSTIFIED WHEN GOD JUDGES IN THE FUTURE because they are doers of the Law today? But it's not counted as justification by works because it's not their own righteousness but God's righteousness (again "not I but the grace with me" and "Christ came and preached to you")?

They are.. Unlike the lost. who are not doers of the law

Irrelevant: the Gentile believers are doers of the Law who will be justified for being doers of the Law--meaning Christians who do not walk in Grace (you've admitted we don't always walk in Grace) will not be justified, but "condemned" (Ro 14:23; James 2)?

No. Your stuck on one verse. I gave you three verses, and you stated they are irrelevant, Yet they refute the one verse your stuck on when we take your interpretation of that verse

No, I said that your point is not relevant, because WHAT EVER YOUR DEFINITION IS the Gentile believers who walk in Grace ARE DOING THAT. IT'S NOT RELEVANT.

 

[GracePeace]

I agree with paul. the things I want to do. those I do not do. the things I do nto want to do. I end up doing. WHo will save me from this body of sin.

He thanks God that through Christ it occurs--because Christ brings the body of sin to nothing (Ro 6:6).
That description of a Jew under the Law who is mastered by sin (Ro 6:14) in Romans 7 is PRE-CHRIST.

No. then they are under law not under grace.

No, those Gentiles don't even know the Law, so how are they "under Law"? It says they "by nature do the things contained in the Law" and are "doers of the Law" because the Spirit is writing the Law on their hearts as promised in Jer 31:31-34.

Yes, But a christian does not earn salvation by keeping the law. The law condemns them where they stand..

See, that's where it's difficult: the Christian who does not walk in Grace, as you say, does not do the Law, and is condemned, not justified.

But they do love because God first loved them, so by practice. they are doers of the law.

Yeah, if they walk in Grace, they're doers of the Law who will be justified in the future.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Isn't it both?

no. The only way it could be both is if we could be saved by keeping the law. We can;t. The law condemns us where we stand

They're justified by faith in Christ, and they WILL BE JUSTIFIED WHEN GOD JUDGES IN THE FUTURE because they are doers of the Law today?

No

The are not condemned because of their faith. Not because they keep the law

since you will nto read it, I will post it.

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

it is our faith that saves us, Because we can not keep the law. hence the law curses us

But it's not counted as justification by works because it's not their own righteousness but God's righteousness (again "not I but the grace with me" and "Christ came and preached to you")?

No, it would be counted as works. Because even paul said it is not by works of righteousness (good works) which we have done, but by his mercy.

Irrelevant: the Gentile believers are doers of the Law who will be justified for being doers of the Law--meaning Christians who do not walk in Grace (you've admitted we don't always walk in Grace) will not be justified, but "condemned" (Ro 14:23; James 2)?

Whatever dude

No, I said that your point is not relevant, because WHAT EVER YOUR DEFINITION IS the Gentile believers who walk in Grace ARE DOING THAT. IT'S NOT RELEVANT.

It is relevent, Because NO ONE HAS KEPT THE LAW. HENCE NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY KEPT THE LAW!!!