Justified by Works

[GracePeace]

@uncle silas
Jesus Fulfilling the Commandments
Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Romans 10:4
"For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Galatians 3:24-25
"So then, the Law was our guardian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

Believers' Ability to Obey
John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 John 2:3-6
"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

Romans 8:3-4
"For God has done what the Law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Philippians 2:12-13
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

1 John 5:2-3
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."


These scriptures collectively affirm that Jesus fulfilled the Law and that through faith in Him, believers are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live in obedience to God’s commandments, reflecting the love of Christ in their actions.

What nomos/entole?

You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
New Testament Context
In the New Testament, Jesus emphasizes the importance of love as the fulfillment of the Law. In Matthew 22:37-40, He summarizes the commandments:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
He indicates that all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments, highlighting that true obedience to God involves a heart posture of love.

Believers' Obedience
While the Ten Commandments remain significant, New Testament teachings stress that believers are empowered by the Holy Spirit to fulfill God's commandments through love, embodying the essence of the Law in their daily lives. This reflects an internal transformation rather than mere external compliance.

Eis-Into Christ Jesus.
J.

Yeah, or else what was the point of Jesus dying and resurrecting? "God's wrath is revealed from heaven upon all the unrighteousness of men whereby they suppress the truth about God" (Ro 1:18).

If being "under Grace" just results in more unrighteousness, what has Christ accomplished? The men He saved are still going to be subject to the wrath of God in that case.

 

[Johann]

Yeah, or else what was the point of Jesus dying and resurrecting? "God's wrath is revealed from heaven upon all the unrighteousness of men whereby they suppress the truth about God" (Ro 1:18).

If being "under Grace" just results in more unrighteousness, what has Christ accomplished? The men He saved are still going to be subject to the wrath of God in that case.

Do you think the moral law/nomos/entole is not for believers?

 

[uncle silas]

And your "answer" was answered : "if we deny Him He will deny us" refers to peoples' righteousness being "forgotten" (in accordance with Ezekiel 18:24--eg, Matthew 18, parable of the unforgiving steward), and "if we are faithless He remains faithful" refers to the fact that if we sin (unfaithfulness) He remains faithful and righteous and will forgive us (1 Jn 1).

Surely you don't think the two statements are stating one and the same truth.

No, if you disown Christ he will disown you. Every believer has intermittent doubts, not permenant ones, then, Christ remains faithful
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom 3:20

One of the basic tenets of the bible.

What is written in the law is holy, just and Good(Rom7:12)

Jesus did not die at Calvary to abolish what is holy, just and good. He died to abolish mans condemnation under what is holy, just and good

What is holy, just and good got transferred from an external law engraved in stone to an internal law written in the mind and placed on the hearts of believers(the fourth one not as written)

What is in your mind you in your mind must know, what is in your heart, you in your heart want to follow.

To fully obey that law requires not desiring anything of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household

You cannot put anything before God in your life

You cannot build any graven image in your mind

You cannot tell any even little fibs about another

You cannot have any impure thoughts

You must obey the law relating to the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break

Then we could add the second greatest commandment, that applies to in thought, word and deed.

It seems to me, if every time you go against the law in your mind you are not walking in faith so are placed in an unjustified state, the believers life is one of a revolving door, constantly flip flopping between a saved and unsaved state

 

[GracePeace]

Do you think the moral law/nomos/entole is not for believers?

I believe we are not under any part of the Law for the simple reason that there is nothing good in us--we are under Grace, as the goodness to fulfill the Law (what pleases God--"He works in us to will and to do for His pleasure") is in Him.

 

[GracePeace]

No, if you disown Christ he will disown you.

How is this a disagreement? LOL Yes, if you deny Him He will deny you. God not only forgets sin but also forgets righteousness--or else, the fact that the unforgiving servant had been forgiven all his sin (indicating he possessed the righteousness of faith, described as "blessed is the man whose sins God will not remember" Ro 4:6-8), yet the forgiveness was rescinded (indicating the removal of his righteousness of faith), and had to pay for his sins, like any unbeliever, would make no sense.

Every believer has intermittent doubts, not permenant ones, then, Christ remains faithful
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom 3:20

One of the basic tenets of the bible.

What is written in the law is holy, just and Good(Rom7:12)

Jesus did not die at Calvary to abolish what is holy, just and good. He died to abolish mans condemnation under what is holy, just and good

What is holy, just and good got transferred from an external law engraved in stone to an internal law written in the mind and placed on the hearts of believers(the fourth one not as written)

What is in your mind you in your mind must know, what is in your heart, you in your heart want to follow.

To fully obey that law requires not desiring anything of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household

You cannot put anything before God in your life

You cannot build any graven image in your mind

You cannot tell any even little fibs about another

You cannot have any impure thoughts

You must obey the law relating to the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break

Then we could add the second greatest commandment, that applies to in thought, word and deed.

It seems to me, if every time you go against the law in your mind you are not walking in faith so are placed in an unjustified state, the believers life is one of a revolving door, constantly flip flopping between a saved and unsaved state

As has already been explained to you (and I hope you read the answer this time), John warns "Little children, remain in Him so that you will not shrink back in shame at His appearance"--remaining in Him is by keeping His commands "Believe in the Name of God's Son and love one another" 1 Jn 3:23,24)--so, clearly, the spiritually immature ("little children") have a tendency to fluctuate in and out of remaining in Christ, so, yes, the spiritually immature do have a tendency to fluctuate into condemnation, but this is not addressed to "young men" (intermediate spiritual maturity) or to "fathers" (the spiritually mature), because it does not occur as often with them.

 

[uncle silas]

How is this a disagreement? LOL Yes, if you deny Him He will deny you. God not only forgets sin but also forgets righteousness--or else, the fact that the unforgiving servant had been forgiven all his sin (indicating he possessed the righteousness of faith, described as "blessed is the man whose sins God will not remember" Ro 4:6-8), yet the forgiveness was rescinded (indicating the removal of his righteousness of faith), and had to pay for his sins, like any unbeliever, would make no sense.

As has already been explained to you (and I hope you read the answer this time), John warns "Little children, remain in Him so that you will not shrink back in shame at His appearance"--remaining in Him is by keeping His commands "Believe in the Name of God's Son and love one another" 1 Jn 3:23,24)--so, clearly, the spiritually immature ("little children") have a tendency to fluctuate in and out of remaining in Christ, so, yes, the spiritually immature do have a tendency to fluctuate into condemnation, but this is not addressed to "young men" (intermediate spiritual maturity) or to "fathers" (the spiritually mature), because it does not occur as often with them.

So you all the time perfectly obey that list I put up?

 

[Johann]

I believe we are not under any part of the Law for the simple reason that there is nothing good in us--we are under Grace, as the goodness to fulfill the Law (what pleases God--"He works in us to will and to do for His pleasure") is in Him.

I wonder-

Not Under the Law as a Covenant
Believers are not under the Old Covenant law in the same way that Israel was, as outlined in Romans 6:14:
"For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."
This indicates that the legalistic requirements of the Law are not the basis for a believer's righteousness or standing before God.

2. Fulfillment through Christ
Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and through His death and resurrection, He established a new covenant. Believers are called to live in the light of that fulfillment.

3. Moral Imperatives of the Ten Commandments
While believers are not bound to the Ten Commandments as a legalistic framework, the moral principles they contain remain relevant. Jesus summarized the Law by emphasizing love for God and love for neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40), which encapsulates the spirit of the commandments.

4. Empowered by Grace
Believers are called to live out these moral imperatives, not through their own strength, but through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The transformation that comes from being under grace enables believers to live in accordance with God's moral standards.


In summary, while believers are not under the Ten Commandments as a covenantal law, the moral truths they express continue to guide Christian conduct, empowered by the grace of God. The emphasis shifts from legalistic adherence to living out the principles of love and righteousness through faith in Christ.

You disagree?
J.

 

[GracePeace]

So you all the time perfectly obey that list I put up?

No, and when I don't, walk in faith, I am breaking the Law of Faith, and I must trust God is faithful and righteous to forgive me of my sins. I do not claim to be spiritually mature!

 

[uncle silas]

No, and when I don't, walk in faith, I am breaking the Law of Faith, and I must trust God is faithful and righteous to forgive me of my sins. I do not claim to be spiritually mature!

ok, so you spend a lot of time in and out of a justified state. I do not believe I do

 

[GracePeace]

I wonder-

Not Under the Law as a Covenant
Believers are not under the Old Covenant law in the same way that Israel was, as outlined in Romans 6:14:
"For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."
This indicates that the legalistic requirements of the Law are not the basis for a believer's righteousness or standing before God.

2. Fulfillment through Christ
Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and through His death and resurrection, He established a new covenant. Believers are called to live in the light of that fulfillment.

3. Moral Imperatives of the Ten Commandments
While believers are not bound to the Ten Commandments as a legalistic framework, the moral principles they contain remain relevant. Jesus summarized the Law by emphasizing love for God and love for neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40), which encapsulates the spirit of the commandments.

4. Empowered by Grace
Believers are called to live out these moral imperatives, not through their own strength, but through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The transformation that comes from being under grace enables believers to live in accordance with God's moral standards.


In summary, while believers are not under the Ten Commandments as a covenantal law, the moral truths they express continue to guide Christian conduct, empowered by the grace of God. The emphasis shifts from legalistic adherence to living out the principles of love and righteousness through faith in Christ.

You disagree?
J.

When we walk in faith/love, we are proclaiming "God", not ourselves.

Remember Paul says man in his unrighteousness suppresses the truth about God... thus Paul rhetorically asks, "If by my lie God's truth abounds [aforementioned : "that You may be vindicated when You judge me"]) to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?"... thus, by the same token, "righteousness" is the revelation of God, and we reveal God when we believe His message that we are sinners, but He pardons us, so He receives us, and we reveal God, not ourselves, when we walk in faith. We point to God with our righteousness.

 

[GracePeace]

ok, so you spend a lot of time in and out of a justified state. I do not believe I do

I just hold to Scripture--the one who does not walk in faith is condemned. I can't change Scripture.

 

[uncle silas]

No, and when I don't, walk in faith, I am breaking the Law of Faith, and I must trust God is faithful and righteous to forgive me of my sins. I do not claim to be spiritually mature!

Let's put it this way. As a child I did not always obey my parents rules. When I broke them I was not thrown out of the house and only let back in when I sincerely repented
Yet, that is how some believe God treats his children. Between the time I broke the rules and said sorry for doing so, I remained part of my parents family. Healthy relationship had been impaired, it was restored once I said sorry for breaking the rules.
I imagine you believe God loves his children less than human parents love theirs

 

[Johann]

ok, so you spend a lot of time in and out of a justified state. I do not believe I do

I believe that is impossible-since it is in the Perfect Tense.
Once sealed with the Holy Spirit you CANNOT become "unsealed" later on in life, why would God sealed us in the first instance?
So I concur here.
J.

 

[uncle silas]

I just hold to Scripture--the one who does not walk in faith is condemned. I can't change Scripture.

You could change your understanding of it. I do not believe you consider yourself condemned every time you break the law within

 

[GracePeace]

Let's put it this way. As a child I did not always obey my parents rules. When I broke them I was not thrown out of the house and only let back in when I sincerely repented
Yet, that is how some believe God trteats his children. Between the time I brfoke the rules and said sorry for doing so, I remained part of my parents family. Healthy relationship had been impaired, it was restored once I said sorry for breaking the rules.
I imagine you believe God loves his children less than human parents love theirs

This touches upon another aspect I have already addressed, but which, I have to assume, you did not think was important to answer : God can forget not only sin but also righteousness (Ez 18:24), and, in the New Testament, "faith is counted as righteousness", so people can be "forgotten", "blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life". The example I've already provided you with was Matthew 18 (parable of the unforgiving servant).

 

[GracePeace]

I believe that is impossible-since it is in the Perfect Tense.
Once sealed with the Holy Spirit you CANNOT become "unsealed" later on in life, why would God sealed us in the first instance?
So I concur here.
J.

I would have to disagree, since Matthew 18 says the servant had been forgiven all his debt, but, because of his behavior, afterward, his debt returned. Being that forgiveness is by the righteousness of faith (Ro 4:6-8), this would mean that he had already been a believer, yet, His having been a believer, his righteousness of faith, was "forgotten" : God not only has the capacity to forget sin, but to forget righteousness (Ez 18:24), and this is how it plays out in the New Covenant (their name is blotted out).

 

[uncle silas]

This touches upon another aspect I have already addressed, but which, I have to assume, you did not think was important to answer : God can forget not only sin but also righteousness (Ez 18:24), and, in the New Testament, "faith is counted as righteousness", so people can be "forgotten", "blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life". The example I've already provided you with was Matthew 18 (parable of the unforgiving servant).

I have not said anything about osas.

 

[GracePeace]

You could change your understanding of it. I do not believe you consider yourself condemned every time you break the law within

You can project your belief on to me ("I do not believe you consider yourself condemned"), but that doesn't actually reveal what I believe.

 

[GracePeace]

I have not said anything about osas.

Yes, because you spoke about a child never unbecoming part of his family due to his behavior--that is OSAS.

 

[uncle silas]

I would have to disagree, since Matthew 18 says the servant had been forgiven all his debt, but, because of his behavior, afterward, his debt returned. Being that forgiveness is by the righteousness of faith (Ro 4:6-8), this would mean that he had already been a believer, yet, His having been a believer, his righteousness of faith, was "forgotten" : God not only has the capacity to forget sin, but to forget righteousness (Ez 18:24), and this is how it plays out in the New Covenant (their name is blotted out).

Every time you fail to perfectly love others in thought, word or deed, including your enemies, those who may be unkind to you, persecute or harass you, do you believe you are placed in an unjustified state?