John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

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Kermos

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"I am with you always".....IOW from that time forward....Jesus would be with his true disciples, in spite of the fact that a counterfeit "Christianity" was to flood the world with its false doctrines........that is not "eternal" but something "everlasting". Jesus had a beginning...Yahweh did not.

Your spirit of delusion, preaching that Jesus saying "I am with you always" means that Jesus was created causes your heart to contradict Jesus declaring that He is uncreated with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), is exposed by your lies that you post.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING, even eternal, going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING, even eternal, going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting, even eternal.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

No scripture states that Jesus, truly God, has a beginning.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

Posted to: John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
 
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face2face

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Exactly! It's so simple. If we know who the two main characters are, Jesus and God, the story makes way more sense. In fact, making the two into one all but makes the Bible unintelligible.
Also, once you acknowledge Jesus is the first born from the dead...the first fruits of them that sleep (in the dust of the earth) you have the beginning of a spiritual creation (John 1).

Revelation 1:18 would make absolutely no sense whatsoever if Jesus was God - it would be a who cares moment! Whats the point if everyone knows Jesus is Very God?

Rev 1:18 and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades!

The fact he holds the keys now to death and the grave also shows Jesus to the only man to given immortality - to date no one else has been raised to immortality.

F2F
 

tigger 2

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Your spirit of delusion, preaching that God's memorial-name is "I wiil be" instead of the ever-present "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 proves that you do not understand the Hebrew language - your deception which you then extend against Jesus self-declaring that He is "I AM" in John 20:28, is exposed by your lies that you post.

"I AM" is not "I will be" in Exodus 3:14 according to the Hebrew word eyheh with legal Hebrew grammar.

The old debunked and worn out and evil Watchtower Society Exodus 3:14 delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

In effect, you think "I am not who I will be" is God's memorial-name to all generations.

In effect, you also think "I will be who I will be so I am not being at this moment" is God's memorial-name to all generations.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate English translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKh - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.
........................................................
All the other places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

See ehyeh in an OT Interlinear at Exodus 3:14:

Now look up the other scriptures which also use ehyeh and see how they are translated in most Bibles:
Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV; Tanakh, JPS,1985; Septuagint (esomai)
Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV; Tanakh, JPS,1985; Septuagint (esomai)
Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be with you" NRSV; Tanakh, JPS,1985; Septuagint (esomai)
Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV; Tanakh, JPS,1985
Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV; Tanakh, JPS,1985
Deuteronomy 32:23 (Moses: "I will be with you" NRSV)

With a good Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible you can prove to yourself that ehyeh should be translated "I will be" (or a similar rendering) at Ex. 3:14.

In contrast to the paucity of evidence for an "I am" interpretation of ehyeh you will find that all of the books of Moses (the Pentateuch), including Exodus, of course, and the book of Joshua always use ehyeh to mean "I will be."
Note:
2 Samuel 7:14
is quoted in the New Testament scriptures at Hebrews 1:5. Notice that when ehyeh (2 Sam. 7:14) was translated into the NT Greek by the inspired Bible writer at Heb. 1:5, he didn’t write ego eimi (“I am”) but ego esomai (“I will be”)! (Esomai is also used at 2 Sam. 7:14 in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek OT.)

Ezekiel 11:20 in the list is also quoted in the NT at Heb. 8:10. Ehyeh in Ezekiel 11:20 is translated as "I will be," of course, and the quoting of this word by the NT writer in Heb. 8:10 is esomai ("I will be") not ego eimi ("I am"). (Ego esomai is used at Ezek. 11:20 in the Septuagint also.)

Conversely, the trinitarian United Bible Societies and trinitarian scholar Delitzsch both translated the Greek "I will be" of Rev. 21:7 into the Hebrew ehyeh. - See their Hebrew New Testaments.

The trinitarian Today's Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House, pp. 330-331, says of Ex. 3:14 -

"It has been rendered, `I WILL BE that I WILL BE' as an indication of God's sovereignty and immutability" and "the translation ... that probably comes closest to the intention of God at this point is, `I will be there'."

Also see the strongly trinitarian standard reference The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Eerdmans, 1984 printing, Vol. 2, p. 1254 (#3), p. 1266 (#5), and p. 1267 (#9), and the trinitarian A Dictionary of the Bible, Hastings, Vol. 2, pp. 199, 200, Hendrickson Publ., 1988 printing.

The clear testimony of the evidence shows that Ex. 3:14 incorrectly translates ehyeh as "I am" in some trinitarian Bible translations, and that it should be rendered as something closer to "I WILL BE."

Both the Hebrew New Testament by Franz Delitzsch, the famous Lutheran Bible scholar, published by the Trinitarian Bible Society, 1977 ed., and the Hebrew New Testament by the equally trinitarian United Bible Societies, 1983, use two Hebrew pronouns instead of the word ehyeh in translating John 8:58.

So, instead of "Before Abraham was, ehyeh" they both have "Before Abraham was, ani hu." Ani means "I," and hu means "he." (Just as hu can sometimes include an implied "be" verb such as "is" or "was" - see Gesenius, p. 218 - so ani can also include an implied verb such as "am" or "was" or "have been.")

John 8:58 in these two trinitarian translations, then, may be interpreted "I [am] he" or "I [was] he," etc.

Therefore, these two trinitarian translations, written by scholars who are truly experts in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew (like the Hebrew scholars who wrote the ancient Septuagint), make no attempt to correlate John 8:58 (ani hu) with Exodus 3:14 (ehyeh). This shows they recognize the impossibility of the ehyeh/ego eimi argument used by some trinitarians.

Furthermore, they have both translated the NT "I will be" (esomai) as ehyeh:

John 8:55 (esomai/ehyeh); 1 Cor. 14:11 (esomai/ehyeh); Heb. 1:5 (esomai/ehyeh); Rev. 21:7(esomai/ehyeh).
 
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face2face

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All the other places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

That's correct God will be manifested through mighty ones...as HE is through the angelic host...and HE is through His Son and as He will be through the Saints on High.

God manifestation is the single most important doctrine in the Bible starting at Genesis 1:1 and finishing in Revelation where God will dwell with men.

Christians have their heads so full of man-made doctrine it's impossible for them to learn these vital teachings.

F2F (1 Timothy 3:16)
 

Aunty Jane

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@tigger 2 there is no point in arguing when all he can do is regurgitate the only scripture he knows...its like the rest of the Bible doesn't exist.

Its sad that the trinitarians are shown clear and unequivocal scripture, and yet they are still blind.
Not unexpected though is it....:( (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Its a special kind of blindness....:doldrums:
 
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face2face

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@tigger 2 there is no point in arguing when all he can do is regurgitate the only scripture he knows...its like the rest of the Bible doesn't exist.

Its sad that the trinitarians are shown clear and unequivocal scripture, and yet they are still blind.
Not unexpected though is it....:( (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Its a special kind of blindness....:doldrums:
Agree....and...do you know precisely what the god of this world is aunty Jane?
 

Rich R

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Jesus is God the Son. He can't be God the Father as God is God the Father and neither can he be God the Holy Spirit. This the true gospel - good news - that our God in human form died an agonising death so that we might be spared the punishment for our sin. He paid the ransom price in blood. If you do not believe that then I am sorry but you aren't a Christian - yet.
Where does it say that? Romans 10:9-10 tells us how to get saved and it says nothing about a God the Son. Just read it:

Rom 10:9-10,

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​
 

Kermos

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We call Yahweh in English....."Jehovah" (Psalm 83:18 KJV).

Your spirit of delusion, preaching that Jehovah is truly God's Holy Name in English, is misleading.

YHWH is the English translation for God's Holy Name, not Jehovah.

Jehovah is not an English translation for God's Holy Name of יהוה in Hebrew.

YHWH is an English translation for God's Holy Name of יהוה in Hebrew.

The Masoretic Texts of post seventh century to pre fourteenth century A.D. contain YHWH mixed with "Adonai" except the Masoretes exchanged an E for the A that starts the word Adonai then they took every other vowel starting with the first A resulting in the insertion of "eoa" into God’s Holy Name. See that "eoa" is every other letter in the word Jehovah.

The Masoretes devised the system with the intent to warn people of various languages not to use God's Holy Name of יהוה in vain.

The Masoretes method to avoid enunciating God's Holy Name of יהוה results in the man-made word "Jehovah".

You might even have seen how some people write G-d instead of God.

Essentially, the Masoretes intentionally created a code separated by an order of magnitude from God's Holy Name of יהוה.

Some English translators took the Masoretic man-made devised code into English as Jehovah.

Your New World Translation contains Jehovah after Jehovah after Jehovah, and not a single occurrence of Jehovah in the NWT is God's Holy Name!

The word "Jehovah" is a man-made word intentionally developed to be separate from God's Holy Name of YHWH.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).
 
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Pearl

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Where does it say that? Romans 10:9-10 tells us how to get saved and it says nothing about a God the Son. Just read it:

Rom 10:9-10,

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​
Are you a JW?
 
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Rich R

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Also, once you acknowledge Jesus is the first born from the dead...the first fruits of them that sleep (in the dust of the earth) you have the beginning of a spiritual creation (John 1).

Revelation 1:18 would make absolutely no sense whatsoever if Jesus was God - it would be a who cares moment! Whats the point if everyone knows Jesus is Very God?

Rev 1:18 and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades!

The fact he holds the keys now to death and the grave also shows Jesus to the only man to given immortality - to date no one else has been raised to immortality.

F2F
Yes, and it would also make no sense that Jesus was tempted just like the rest of us. I think having a consciousness of being God would render any temptation meaningless. I sure don't feel like I'm God when temptation comes my way. Then, being tempted just like me, neither did Jesus. In any case, Jesus was tempted and God can't be tempted, so that ought to settle the matter.

Can you imagine Jesus being tempted to call 12 legions of angels to get him off the cross? He could have done that. He said so. But he didn't because he was a man that loved that much. Making him God totally nullifies his true heroism. Does anybody think God could have succumbed to temptation (if He could even be tempted)? Of course not! Another who cares moment if Jesus is God.
 
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Pearl

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No. I'm non-denominational. I guess it used to be that JW was pretty much the only people who didn't think Jesus was God. Today, there are more and more Christians who are not JW that are beginning to understand that Jesus was the son of God.
I'm sorry but I can't accept that. God and Abrham made a covenant in which Abraham's blood was shed and in the new covenant God's blood was shed. To me unless jesus is God he is no more than a prophet like Mohammed.
And although I am also non-denominational I have never heard it taught that Jesus is not God. I would run a mile if it was ever said in a church I belonged to.
But thank you for answering my question. I respect your views but don't agree with them.
 

Rich R

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I'm sorry but I can't accept that. God and Abrham made a covenant in which Abraham's blood was shed and in the new covenant God's blood was shed. To me unless jesus is God he is no more than a prophet like Mohammed.
And although I am also non-denominational I have never heard it taught that Jesus is not God. I would run a mile if it was ever said in a church I belonged to.
But thank you for answering my question. I respect your views but don't agree with them.
Despite his not being God, Jesus was nothing at all like Mohamed. I'm pretty sure that Mohamed sinned at some point in his life. In fact, thanks to Adam, he came into this world with a sin nature, so he, like the rest of us, was bound to sin and did sin.

Jesus, on the other hand, came into this world just like Adam came into this world, i.e., without sin. Both had free will. Adam used his free will to try and become like God. Jesus faced the same temptation, but didn't choke like Adam choked.

Jesus was tempted just like all of us. Do you feel like God when you are tempted? I don't think so. If Jesus knew he was God his temptations would be nothing at all like ours. In fact, God can't be tempted at all!

How about the temptation to call 12 legions of angels to get him off the cross? Jesus said he could have done that. I undoubtedly would have called them up way before the first nail! But Jesus, facing the same temptation said, "No. I will not do my will but the will of my Father."

I suppose it must have been quite tempting to accept the devil's offer to be the leader of the entire world. He could have had that position right then and there, but again Jesus followed his Father's will and believed the promise God made to him of being the leader of the world after his death and resurrection.

Just think a bit on the nature of temptation and the temptations Jesus faced during his life. If he were God they'd be meaningless and they would certainly not be the same as those faced by free will humans. Well, as it says, Jesus was tempted like us, not like God (if God could even be tempted).

Jesus was the only begotten son of God. The Bible says that many times. Nowhere do we see a God the Son in the scriptures. What is wrong with that?
 
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Webers_Home

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Psalm 68:4 . . Sing you to God, make melody to his name; raise up a song
to the One riding through the desert plains as Jah, which is His name.

JWs could call themselves Jah's Witnesses, but it's doubtful the Governing Body
would go for it.
_
 

Rich R

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Psalm 68:4 . . Sing you to God, make melody to his name; raise up a song
to the One riding through the desert plains as Jah, which is His name.

JWs could call themselves Jah's Witnesses, but it's doubtful the Governing Body
would go for it.
_
Never saw that before. There are actually 45 times JAH is used for God. Any ideas on why God is called that?
 

Pearl

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Psalm 68:4 . . Sing you to God, make melody to his name; raise up a song
to the One riding through the desert plains as Jah, which is His name.

JWs could call themselves Jah's Witnesses, but it's doubtful the Governing Body
would go for it.
_
All true born again Christians are witnesses for Jehovah, Yaweh, Yeshua or Jesus.

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
 
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