Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Scott Downey]

We are saved by the great love and mercy of God towards us, not by anything we did or are.
We are not even saved by our own wills; we are saved by God's will for us.

For example Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


John 1

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Being a sheep follower of Christ was never one of our ideas, all of that God gave to us as His gift for us.
v13 'who were born', this tells us being born of God precedes our receiving and believing in Him
And John 3 says the same things; You must be born again to both see and enter the kingdom of God, and this is of the will of God for any particular person.

We believe as we were granted our belief in Christ. Just as Philippians 1 says.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never alleged works based salvation. I do not believe you (or most) Arminianists believe that. I am highlighting the unscriptural focus on man (that is totally unscriptural) and the attributing to him of qualities he does not possess. I find that disturbing.

What are you even talking about here?! You just refuse to stop making strawman arguments! My view does not focus on man's abilities! My view focuses on man's inabilities and his responsibility to acknowledge that he can't save himself and needs God's mercy and the blood of Christ to save him instead! What is disturbing about that? There should not be anything disturbing about that.

Romans 3:10-12 explains why, saying, “There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Exactly! Do you think I disagree with this? Who are you even talking to here? You refuse to address what I believe because you have it in your mind that all non-Calvinists think exactly alike, which is not the case. This is no different than how futurists and preterists act as if historicists and idealists don't exist.

That says that there is none that seek after God, which is true if nothing is done to show man the truth like the preaching of the gospel or the convicting of the Holy Spirit. But, what about when man is presented with the truth? Then what?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

None seek God and, yet, "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.". We know scripture does not contradict itself, so how can it be that none seek God, and at the same time some do diligently seek Him and are rewarded for that? Do you have any answer for that?

In my view, man will not seek God unless God seeks him first and presents the truth to him by way of the preaching of the gospel and speaking to people's hearts by His Spirit (faith comes by hearing). Once the truth is presented to man, then he must decide how to respond to it. He can choose to seek to find out more or reject it and decide that it's not for him and that he loves darkness more than the light that has been presented to him (John 3:19).

Man by nature will always run from God. He will never come to God. His nature is to rebel against God.

That's right! When did I say otherwise? You clearly are saying this while thinking I disagree with this. I don't! Are you interested in knowing what I believe and addressing that or not?

When man goes over the natural line of outright rejection of God then he becomes reprobate. This is the end of every man natural. That is why he needs a supernatural intervention where Christ first opens his eyes. When he then sees his awful predicament then he repents and believes.

Where does scripture teach that when a person is presented with the truth about their awful predicament then he automatically repents and believes? That's clearly not the case! Many have been presented with that truth and have rejected the solution for their predicament becaues they choose to love darkness more than the light presented to them (John 3:19).

Do you believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the world, as scipture teaches (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 2 Peter 2:1)? If so, why would He die for the sins of those who are given no realistic opportunity to have their sins covered and forgiven by His shed blood?

There is nothing good in him.

Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Exactly! That's why we need Jesus! Hello? You are not paying any attention to what I actually believe because you make one strawman argument after another. Because there is nothing good in us, we are required to admit that to God. Nowhere does it say that anyone is incapable of doing that. Jesus calls sinners, who He says are sick and in need of a doctor, to repentance and all people are sinners. Does He call anyone to repentance who can't repent? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. So, not being good has nothing to do with one's ability to recognize that they are a sinner and need to repent of their sins.

Arminianists ignore this passage as it exposes their doctrine of elevating the flesh.

Nonsense! Yet another strawman argument that doesn't address what I believe. I do NOT ignore verses like those at all!

You say you are tired of my supposed strawman arguments? I have had it with yours! There's no point in even reading any further since it likely is just more strawman arguments. Let me know if you ever want to actually address what I believe instead of your Arminian strawman.

 

[WPM]

What are you even talking about here?! You just refuse to stop making strawman arguments! My view does not focus on man's abilities! My view focuses on man's inabilities and his responsibility to acknowledge that he can't save himself and needs God's mercy and the blood of Christ to save him instead! What is disturbing about that? There should not be anything disturbing about that.


Exactly! Do you think I disagree with this? Who are you even talking to here? You refuse to address what I believe because you have it in your mind that all non-Calvinists think exactly alike, which is not the case. This is no different than how futurists and preterists act as if historicists and idealists don't exist.

That says that there is none that seek after God, which is true if nothing is done to show man the truth like the preaching of the gospel or the convicting of the Holy Spirit. But, what about when man is presented with the truth? Then what?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

None seek God and, yet, "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.". We know scripture does not contradict itself, so how can it be that none seek God, and at the same time some do diligently seek Him and are rewarded for that? Do you have any answer for that?

In my view, man will not seek God unless God seeks him first and presents the truth to him by way of the preaching of the gospel and speaking to people's hearts by His Spirit (faith comes by hearing). Once the truth is presented to man, then he must decide how to respond to it. He can choose to seek to find out more or reject it and decide that it's not for him and that he loves darkness more than the light that has been presented to him (John 3:19).


That's right! When did I say otherwise? You clearly are saying this while thinking I disagree with this. I don't! Are you interested in knowing what I believe and addressing that or not?


Where does scripture teach that when a person is presented with the truth about their awful predicament then he automatically repents and believes? That's clearly not the case! Many have been presented with that truth and have rejected the solution for their predicament becaues they choose to love darkness more than the light presented to them (John 3:19).

Do you believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the world, as scipture teaches (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 2 Peter 2:1)? If so, why would He die for the sins of those who are given no realistic opportunity to have their sins covered and forgiven by His shed blood?


Exactly! That's why we need Jesus! Hello? You are not paying any attention to what I actually believe because you make one strawman argument after another. Because there is nothing good in us, we are required to admit that to God. Nowhere does it say that anyone is incapable of doing that. Jesus calls sinners, who He says are sick and in need of a doctor, to repentance and all people are sinners. Does He call anyone to repentance who can't repent? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. So, not being good has nothing to do with one's ability to recognize that they are a sinner and need to repent of their sins.


Nonsense! Yet another strawman argument that doesn't address what I believe. I do NOT ignore verses like those at all!

You say you are tired of my supposed strawman arguments? I have had it with yours! There's no point in even reading any further since it likely is just more strawman arguments. Let me know if you ever want to actually address what I believe instead of your Arminian strawman.

You have a dead man coming to life by himself. You have a dead man responding before he is alive. You have a blind man seeing when he cannot. He needs regenerated by the Word and the Spirit first.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In your opinion.

As if you are not also sharing your opinion? LOL. Come on. You're not talking to Doug here.

But you have shown how unscriptural your view is in every angle we have looked at.

Yet, you refuse to even address my view. You are addressing a strawman view instead. So, this comment means nothing to me.

Your self-help, man-centered, He-loves-me-He-loves-me-not, gospel is contrary to the faithful character of God, eternal life and to His eternal truth.

LOL. You are horribly misrepresenting my view. You should be better than this.

You have no assurance that you are going to make it - in your beliefs. It is all dependent on you doing A, B and C.

Another strawman argument. No, it is dependent on God doing what He has already done by sending His Son to die for my sins. Unlike you, I believe I have the responsibility to choose whether or not to acknowledge that I could not do what Jesus did for me and I have to acknowledge that I'm a sinner in need of His blood to cover my sins. And I choose to believe that I indeed can do nothing to save myself and all I can do is submit myself to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is Jesus-focused salvation, but you accuse me of believing in man-focused salvation instead.

So, yes, it is a good works gospel.

Nonsense! What good works am I saying that we need to do to be saved?

You acknowledge God will not forsake you, but you argue that you could forsake Him and end up in hell. So, yes, it is all about you.

This is foolish. Having God-given responsibility to submit to Him does not make it all about me. That's ridiculous! It's all about God and submitting to Him. If I thought it was all about me then I would say that I need to do some certain amount of good works to prove my worthiness to be saved and to prove how righteous I am, but I am not saying that at all. I'm saying we are made responsible to acknowledge how unrighteous and unworthy we are. Your strawman arguments do nothing to refute what I believe. You are showing no interest in understanding what I actually believe.

The doctrines of grace are all about Him. That is what Scripture teaches. You will never change me on this subject with such an erroneous gospel that misrepresents the character of God.

I could not care less if I change you on this subject or not. It's your choice what to believe. But, it would be nice if you actually made some effort to understand what I actually believe instead of focusing on what your strawman believes instead.

 

[Doug]

Do you know what a link is?

what is it

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have a dead man coming to life by himself. You have a dead man responding before he is alive. You have a blind man seeing when he cannot. He needs regenerated by the Word and the Spirit first.

When were the disciples made alive? Was it not when they received the Holy Spirit which happened after Jesus's resurrection? Did they repent and believe before or after that? They did so before they received the Holy Spirit, right? How is that possible when your doctrine teaches that regeneration precedes faith?

And, once again you did not address any of my points. You refuse to address what I believe! Why? You should be better than this. I do NOT claim that we just somehow believe out of the blue without God initiating things by the Word and Spirit first. Why do you insist in misrepresenting what I believe?

Also, you refuse to address the difference between being dead in sins and being sick and in need of a doctor. Why will you not address that? To be dead in sins means we are spiritually separated from a personal, spiritual relationship with God. But, death does not equal a lack of consciousness! That includes the death of the body. When our body dies, we do not lose consciousness. It's a separation of our body from our soul and spirit which maintain consciousness. Likewise, being dead in sins is a separation from God, but is not a lack of consciousness.

While there is a sense in which sinners are dead in sins, there's another sense in which they are not dead, but rather are sick and in need of a doctor. What do I need to do to get you to address this?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus equates being a sinner with being sick and in need of a doctor. So, sinners are both dead in sins AND sick and in need of a doctor. Do you have no interest in trying to differentiate between these things? Does being sick and in need of a physician mean that someone is incapable of recognizing their sickness and need for a physician? No, of course not. The physician can inform the sick person that they can't be healed unless he heals them and then the sick person needs to decide whether to humble himself and allow the physician to heal him or decide that he can recover and heal himself.

Jesus compares this scenario to how it is for sinners. He calls them to repentance. Where does He say that they first have to be regenerated before they can repent? Nowhere. He calls them to repent immediately upon hearing His call to repentance. He is telling them that He has the cure for their sickness and they have to decide whether or not to acknowledge that they made themselves sick by rebelling against Him and need the cure that He has for their lost condition.

 

[WPM]

Once again you did not address any of my points. You refuse to address what I believe! Why? You should be better than this. I do NOT claim that we just somehow believe out of the blue without God initiating things by the Word and Spirit first. Why do you insist in misrepresenting what I believe?

Also, you refuse to address the difference between being dead in sins and being sick and in need of a doctor. Why will you not address that? To be dead in sins means we are spiritually separated from a personal, spiritual relationship with God. But, death does not equal a lack of consciousness! That includes the death of the body. When our body dies, we do not lose consciousness. It's a separation of our body from our soul and spirit which maintain consciousness. Likewise, being dead in sins is a separation from God, but is not a lack of consciousness.

While there is a sense in which sinners are dead in sins, there's another sense in which they are not dead, but rather are sick and in need of a doctor. What do I need to do to get you to address this?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus equates being a sinner with being sick and in need of a doctor. So, sinners are both dead in sins AND sick and in need of a doctor. Do you have no interest in trying to differentiate between these things? Does being sick and in need of a physician mean that someone is incapable of recognizing their sickness and need for a physician? No, of course not. The physician can inform the sick person that they can't be healed unless he heals them and then the sick person needs to decide whether to humble himself and allow the physician to heal him or decide that he can recover and heal himself.

Jesus compares this scenario to how it is for sinners. He calls them to repentance. Where does He say that they first have to be regenerated before they can repent? Nowhere. He calls them to repent immediately upon hearing His call to repentance. He is telling them that He has the cure for their sickness and they have to decide whether or not to acknowledge that they made themselves sick by rebelling against Him and need the cure that He has for their lost condition.

Exactly. Man cannot heal his spiritually sick soul. He completely needs the invention of the great physician.

 

[WPM]

As if you are not also sharing your opinion? LOL. Come on. You're not talking to Doug here.


Yet, you refuse to even address my view. You are addressing a strawman view instead. So, this comment means nothing to me.


LOL. You are horribly misrepresenting my view. You should be better than this.


Another strawman argument. No, it is dependent on God doing what He has already done by sending His Son to die for my sins. Unlike you, I believe I have the responsibility to choose whether or not to acknowledge that I could not do what Jesus did for me and I have to acknowledge that I'm a sinner in need of His blood to cover my sins. And I choose to believe that I indeed can do nothing to save myself and all I can do is submit myself to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is Jesus-focused salvation, but you accuse me of believing in man-focused salvation instead.


Nonsense! What good works am I saying that we need to do to be saved?


This is foolish. Having God-given responsibility to submit to Him does not make it all about me. That's ridiculous! It's all about God and submitting to Him. If I thought it was all about me then I would say that I need to do some certain amount of good works to prove my worthiness to be saved and to prove how righteous I am, but I am not saying that at all. I'm saying we are made responsible to acknowledge how unrighteous and unworthy we are. Your strawman arguments do nothing to refute what I believe. You are showing no interest in understanding what I actually believe.


I could not care less if I change you on this subject or not. It's your choice what to believe. But, it would be nice if you actually made some effort to understand what I actually believe instead of focusing on what your strawman believes instead.

I have absolutely no desire to misrepresent what you believe. I apologize if I have. I know you're very sincere in what you believe. You are a solid man of God. There is no one on this board (or others) that i respect more. I know that we probably agree on 99% of things. We have differences on this subject, albeit it is a very important subject to both of us. We are both very passionate about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. Man cannot heal his spiritually sick soul. He completely needs the invention of the great physician.

Of course. That is exactly what I said. So, this is not what we are disagreeing about even though it seems that before this you were acting as if we disagreed about this. Maybe you are finally at least somewhat understanding what I believe. I do not believe that man can do anything to save himself. You keep trying to say that I believe otherwise as if you know what I believe better than I do, which is simply not true.

You said I believe in a "good works gospel". Believing that man cannot heal his own spiritually sick soul is not a good works gospel, right? Would you like to retract that statement now that you see I do not believe that?

Our difference in beliefs has nothing to do with you believing that man can't save himself by his works and righteousness while I do believe that. No. I do not believe that.

The difference in our beliefs is that I believe a spiritual sick sinner is capable of realizing and acknowledging that he or she is a lost sinner who can't save himself or herself and needs Jesus to save them instead. But, you think that a person needs to be regenerated first before they can do that. Is that what Jesus said, though? Did He say "I came to call sinners to repentance after they are regenerated"? Or does He call them to repentance while they are still sick? If they are regenerated then they are not sick anymore, are they? But, Jesus is calling people to repent while they are sick so that He can then heal them.

Your doctrine has the healing coming first followed by the repentance. Jesus specifically said "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:16-17). Those who are healed and are whole are not in need of a doctor and in need of repentance. It's those who are sick who need a doctor and need to repent. If the repentance comes after being regenerated, then it's not a sick person who is repenting, but rather a person who has already been made whole (healed, regenerated) and that contradicts what Jesus taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have absolutely no desire to misrepresent what you believe. I apologize if I have.

You have done so repeatedly, and you think I have done the same and I also apologize if I have done that, but we all know that this can happen if you don't understand what the other person believes or if you have preconceived notions of what the other person believes. Regardless, I accept your apology.

I know you're very sincere in what you believe. You are a solid man of God.

I believe the same of you despite this passionate debate we're having. If we didn't care and didn't love God we would not even be talking about this. But, since this involves a discussion of God's character, it naturally becomes heated because we both want to defend His character as we understand it. I certainly can't fault anyone for that.

There is no one on this board (or others) that i respect more. I know that we probably agree on 99% of things. We have differences on this subject, albeit it is a very important subject to both of us. We are both very passionate about it.

Yes, we are. LOL. It's quite obvious, isn't it? But, I'm good with just agreeing to disagree at this point if you want. If we continue, let's agree to maybe tone things down a couple notches. Deal?

 

[covenantee]

what is it

A sausage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Peter in Acts tells us Christ was in Hades
And Christ was raised on the Third Day, not the first day.

Peter says Christ's souls was not left in Hades, means God took Christ's soul from Hades when God resurrected Christ.
So Christ was in hades a couple of days after He died. This is even in the Apostle's creed


23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’


29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

You are misinterpreting those verses. They are not saying that Jesus's soul went to Hades, but was not left there. Why would His soul go to Hades which is another word for hell? No, they are saying that His soul was not taken to and left in Hades because it went to paradise (the third heaven) to be with God instead. And He took the souls and spirits of dead believers like the thief on the cross with Him there from Abraham's bosom. He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day of His death in paradise and He committed His spirit to God the Father upon His death, so His spirit went to paradise (the third heaven) upon His death, not Hades/hell. There would have been no reason for His soul to go to Hades/hell. That is the realm of the souls of dead unbelievers and Jesus contrasted that place with Abraham's bosom in Luke 16:19-31. Why would He have gone to Hades? There would be no reason whatsoever for Him to have done so.

Luke 23:42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.“ 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”When he had said this, he breathed his last.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We can always pray for the unsaved, that God will show them mercy and save them

But, for some reason, Jesus had no interest in doing that? How does that make any sense? You don't think Jesus wanted to set an example for us?

Like Paul says here, and we are to do good to all men, especially those who believe.

Romans 10
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for [a]Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Why are you setting Jesus and Paul against each other as if they taught contradictory things? You said this previously:

Jesus does not pray for unbelievers, or the world.
This means there is no intercessions for them with God.

So, why would Paul pray for unbelievers if Jesus didn't? Did Paul not want to emulate Jesus? Was he contradicting the example that Jesus gave him? No, that can't be it because he followed the example of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

So, by praying for unbelievers, was Paul being a hypocrite by not following the example of Christ or are you missing something here? I vote for the latter.

Let's examine John 17 more carefully to see the context of what Jesus was saying.

John 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

The first thing to understand about this passage is that Jesus was talking about His disciples specifically here and not about believers in general, as you falsely believe. We know that in the passage above He is only praying for His disciples because He later in verse 20 said "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message".

So, with this understanding of the context in mind, what was Jesus really saying when He said "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."? Was He saying He was praying for believers and not praying for unbelievers as you falsely think? Absolutely not. He was simply saying that He was praying for His disciples to be protected and was not praying that for anyone else at that particular time. He had a particular purpose for His disciples. He prayed that they would be protected so that they could serve that purpose which was to bring the gospel to all of Israel and then to the whole world. In no way, shape or form did Jesus ever teach that He never prayed for unbelievers or that His followers should not do so. Otherwise, Paul would've been sinning by praying for unbelievers.

For goodness sakes, why would Jesus not want to pray for all of those He died for? He died for the sins, not of ours only, Scott, but of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2). But, after dying for the whole world, including unbelievers, He no longer cared about them and would not have wanted to pray for them? Of course not. He wants them to be saved and that's why He died for their sins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are saved by the great love and mercy of God towards us, not by anything we did or are.
We are not even saved by our own wills; we are saved by God's will for us.

For example Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


John 1

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Being a sheep follower of Christ was never one of our ideas, all of that God gave to us as His gift for us.
v13 'who were born', this tells us being born of God precedes our receiving and believing in Him
And John 3 says the same things; You must be born again to both see and enter the kingdom of God, and this is of the will of God for any particular person.

We believe as we were granted our belief in Christ. Just as Philippians 1 says.

We are saved by the great love and mercy of God towards us, not by anything we did or are.
We are not even saved by our own wills; we are saved by God's will for us.

For example Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


John 1

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Being a sheep follower of Christ was never one of our ideas, all of that God gave to us as His gift for us.
v13 'who were born', this tells us being born of God precedes our receiving and believing in Him
And John 3 says the same things; You must be born again to both see and enter the kingdom of God, and this is of the will of God for any particular person.

We believe as we were granted our belief in Christ. Just as Philippians 1 says.

I agree with the scriptures, of course, but disagree with your interpretations of them.

You say "being born of God precedes our receiving and believing in Him". That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Look at this passage...

John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

A person is born of God when they receive the Holy Spirit. The disciples received the Holy Spirit some time after Jesus's resurrection when He showed up in the house or building they were in. Certainly, the disciples already believed in Jesus well before this happened, so how can you say that we are born of God before we receive and believe in Him?

Then look at this passage...

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Notice here that believers are "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" AFTER they believed and trusted in Christ. Surely, no one is born of the Holy Spirit before being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

So, you are drawing conclusions from the scriptures you referenced without making sure that your conclusions do not contradict other scripture. You need to look at all of scripture before drawing your conclusions.

John 1:13 does not mean that man's will has no part in salvation as if man is not required to choose to believe or not. No, it means just what it says. We are not born of blood. We are not born of the will of the flesh. We are not born of the will of man. Instead, we are born of God. And we are born of God after receiving and believing in Christ.

No on who is born again of God (of the Spirit) would ever say they are instead born of blood or of the will of man. When we are born of the Spirit it involves something that the Spirit does within us, and not something man does, after we have put our trust in Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

Who said it is literal? We are looking at the most symbolic book in the Bible? It does not even “one thousand years.” You force that into the text. It is the more figurative "a thousand."

The term “one thousand” is only found once in Scripture in Isaiah 30:17. Country do I do you imagine and argue, it doesn't exist in Revelation 20. It simply reads chília étee, or "thousand years." For it to read one thousand years as you are suggesting it would have to be prefixed by the Greek word mia for one - which it isn't. Thus it would read mia chília étee. The Greek therefore seems to allow for an indefinite interpretation.

Amils rightly consider the intra-Advent period to be an indefinite period. This is last days period running through to the second coming. It is therefore proper to view Revelation 20 the same. The symbolic usage of numbers in Revelation reinforces that. The genre of Revelation and the symbolism of the book lends itself to this type of understanding. You could also apply that same reasoning to the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes? Of course not! It means a short period of time. A thousand years represents a long period of time.

God Says it is literal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God Says it is literal.

No, David in NJ says it is literal. Don't act like you are God.

 

[soberxp]

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false.

To reign on the new Earth for a thousand years?
Perhaps what we understand as happening on this old Earth is not necessarily reasonable.

 

[David in NJ]

No, David in NJ says it is literal. Don't act like you are God.

Stop acting like the Devil.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false.

To reign on the new Earth for a thousand years?
Perhaps what we understand as happening on this old Earth is not necessarily reasonable.

God Says there will be a literal thousand years.

Never say what God said is "Good" as being "false".

When studying the Scriptures always follow the Commandment = Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[soberxp]

God Says there will be a literal thousand years.

Never say what God said is "Good" as being "false".

When studying the Scriptures always follow the Commandment = Proverbs 30:5-6

I mean, maybe this millennium happened on the new Earth, not the old Earth.

I didn't cause any trouble.that's my understanding, and I think it's the most likely scenario, because there can't be a bottomless pit on the old earth.