Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Scott Downey]

But how were the OT saints regenerated without the internal work of the Spirit?

Well, I do not think they were. No OT saint was made complete without Christ, and they did not go to heaven until Christ came, dies and ascends back into heaven, leading the captivity captive.

Hebrews 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus is the only way to the Father.

 

[WPM]

Well, I do not think they were. No OT saint was made complete without Christ, and they did not go to heaven until Christ came, dies and ascends back into heaven, leading the captivity captive.

Hebrews 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus is the only way to the Father.

I agree with you re heaven. Jesus released the believing dead from Hades after His death. But they were saved by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, I do not think they were. No OT saint was made complete without Christ, and they did not go to heaven until Christ came, dies and ascends back into heaven, leading the captivity captive.

Agree.

Hebrews 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

I personally think that Hebrews 11:39-40 is talking about the day Jesus comes again when we will be made perfect in the sense of being changed and putting on bodily immortality at that time. We will be changed and put on immortality and made perfect at the same time as the OT saints when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's return. We will not be changed and put on immortality apart from them because there is no difference now between us and them as we all are one in the body of Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Agree.


I personally think that Hebrews 11:39-40 is talking about the day Jesus comes again when we will be made perfect in the sense of being changed and putting on bodily immortality at that time. We will be changed and put on immortality and made perfect at the same time as the OT saints when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's return. We will not be changed and put on immortality apart from them because there is no difference now between us and them as we all are one in the body of Christ.

I think the promise is eternal life with God in heaven. None of them could receive that until Christ came.
So when they died, they went to Paradise, which was not heaven, otherwise called Abraham's Bosom.
A special place where they received good things. It was also the place where Jesus went after He died. And we know the apostle's doctrine is he descended into the lower parts of the earth and preached to imprisoned spirits, which was the captivity.

Luke 23
At the point of Christ visiting them for those 3 days, God could have made their spirits to have eternal life.

42 Then he said [a]to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus Dies on the Cross​

44 Now it [b]was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the promise is eternal life with God in heaven. None of them could receive that until Christ came.

Maybe I'm being too technical here, but eternal life is in the new heavens and new earth, not in heaven. Heaven will be dissolved and made new (2 Peter 3:10-13).

So when they died, they went to Paradise, which was not heaven, otherwise called Abraham's Bosom.
A special place where they received good things. It was also the place where Jesus went after He died. And we know the apostle's doctrine is he descended into the lower parts of the earth and preached to imprisoned spirits, which was the captivity.

Luke 23
At the point of Christ visiting them for those 3 days, God could have made their spirits to have eternal life.

42 Then he said [a]to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus Dies on the Cross​

44 Now it [b]was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

To me, being made perfect involves being made wholly perfect including body, soul and spirit. But, we can agree to disagree on this. It's not anything worth having a big argument about. We both know that OT and NT saints are now one in Christ and will all be changed to put on bodily immortality when Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

 

[Scott Downey]

Maybe I'm being too technical here, but eternal life is in the new heavens and new earth, not in heaven. Heaven will be dissolved and made new (2 Peter 3:10-13).


To me, being made perfect involves being made wholly perfect including body, soul and spirit. But, we can agree to disagree on this. It's not anything worth having a big argument about. We both know that OT and NT saints are now one in Christ and will all be changed to put on bodily immortality when Jesus returns at the last trumpet.

Yes, Paradise is no longer where it was, separated from God. This was at the end of the old and beginning of the NC. Next we read of Paradise is in Heaven with God in the New Heaven.

The angels minister to those who will inherit salvation. So, they were there taking care of all the OT saints who died and were in Paradise awaiting Christ to come for them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Our citizenship is in heaven. When we die today or we are alive when He returns, using the ministry of angels, Christ comes and gets us to bring us to Himself. This earth is not our home, another good piece of evidence there is no 1000 year reign on this old earth.

Where exactly are we going? Answer is in v2 and 6.

John 14

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. Once again you twist Scripture. That is what heretics do. You cannot see it. It takes light to see.

It is pointless engaging with you. We just have to ascertain what is the wrong interpretation on each text and we will discover your position.

In will interpret this as your lack of understanding concerning the concept of "parousia." The pedestrian use of the word simply means "an arrival" or "to arrive." But the New Testament also uses the word according to Roman tradition to speak about the official arrival of a king or other royal personages.

The word parousia in the context of Roman kings referred to the ceremonial arrival or presence of a ruler, often an emperor, in a city or region. It signified a grand event where the city prepared extensively to welcome the king or emperor, showcasing their loyalty and reverence. This term, rooted in Greek, literally means "presence" or "arrival" and was associated with the pomp and splendor of such occasions.

Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem on a donkey, celebrated as the Triumphal Entry, does share some similarities with the Roman kings' parousia, but it also stands in stark contrast. Both events involved a ceremonial arrival, public acclaim, and symbolic gestures. In Jesus' case, the crowd spread palm branches and cloaks on the ground, shouting "Hosanna," which was a cry of praise and salvation.

However, while Roman kings or emperors often arrived in grand processions with displays of power and wealth, Jesus chose a humble donkey, fulfilling the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 about the Messiah coming "gentle and riding on a donkey." This choice emphasized humility and peace rather than dominance and grandeur. This was the First Advent.

Interestingly, Christian theology later adopted this concept to describe the anticipated Second Coming of Christ.

First Advent:

Matthew 21:9 The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David; Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest!”​

Second Advent:

Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Unlike the Amillennial position, which does not support the idea of a future, literal earthly reign of Jesus, the Premillennial position correctly supports the earthly reign of Christ just as he predicted. He explicitly says that he will arrive on earth in a Roman-style triumphal entry when Israel will once again say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," showing their loyalty and reverence. That is the moment when Israel will bow the knee.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you deny Christ's Blood?

How did I deny Christ's blood?

Christ's Blood is His Blood of His New Covenant. Matthew 26:28

Of course it is.

When you deny His New Covenant, you also deny His Blood of His New Covenant.

When did I deny his New Covenant?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again, why do you have to assume a position that is repeatedly refuted in Scripture?

It is not refuted in scripture. The idea that a soul can exist apart from the body is not Biblical. Neoplatonists affirm that the soul can exist independently of the body. Plotinus, the founder of Neoplatonism, argued that the soul is immaterial and eternal, and it does not rely on the body for its existence. In fact, he suggested that the body is more dependent on the soul, as the soul provides life and organization to the body.

During the third and fourth centuries, Christian theologians began to weave Neoplatonism into the fabric of Christian dogma, significantly influencing the development of theological thought. When you engage with my writings, envision that I am engaged in a philosophical duel with the dualism prevalent in Greek philosophy—an idea I regard as a misguided doctrine that has insidiously permeated Christian beliefs.

 

[Scott Downey]

In will interpret this as your lack of understanding concerning the concept of "parousia." The pedestrian use of the word simply means "an arrival" or "to arrive." But the New Testament also uses the word according to Roman tradition to speak about the official arrival of a king or other royal personages.

The word parousia in the context of Roman kings referred to the ceremonial arrival or presence of a ruler, often an emperor, in a city or region. It signified a grand event where the city prepared extensively to welcome the king or emperor, showcasing their loyalty and reverence. This term, rooted in Greek, literally means "presence" or "arrival" and was associated with the pomp and splendor of such occasions.

Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem on a donkey, celebrated as the Triumphal Entry, does share some similarities with the Roman kings' parousia, but it also stands in stark contrast. Both events involved a ceremonial arrival, public acclaim, and symbolic gestures. In Jesus' case, the crowd spread palm branches and cloaks on the ground, shouting "Hosanna," which was a cry of praise and salvation.

However, while Roman kings or emperors often arrived in grand processions with displays of power and wealth, Jesus chose a humble donkey, fulfilling the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 about the Messiah coming "gentle and riding on a donkey." This choice emphasized humility and peace rather than dominance and grandeur. This was the First Advent.

Interestingly, Christian theology later adopted this concept to describe the anticipated Second Coming of Christ.

First Advent:

Matthew 21:9 The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David; Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest!”​

Second Advent:

Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Unlike the Amillennial position, which does not support the idea of a future, literal earthly reign of Jesus, the Premillennial position correctly supports the earthly reign of Christ just as he predicted. He explicitly says that he will arrive on earth in a Roman-style triumphal entry when Israel will once again say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," showing their loyalty and reverence. That is the moment when Israel will bow the knee.

Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Actually, this is not implied as something that will happen as something they will do in the future, as in believe and be saved.
It is not prophetic.
Christ's return is as a thief, a secret timing known only to God.
Our actions do NOT determine when Christ returns.
People do not have any influence on when Christ returns.

What is really being said is they will not see or experience the kingdom of God in Christ unless they bend the knee in this life and accept Christ as their Messiah. Christ is going away.

John 8
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

If they do not then this happens to them, they will die in their sin, as in no forgiveness of them.

John 8
13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not [l]true.”

14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.

Jesus Predicts His Departure​

21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's been said for a long time already as the Holy Spirit has come to dwell in people who then know the Lord intimately because of Him dwelling in them and communing with them spiritually while teaching them who He is and what the scriptures teach about Him and what He expects from us. Instead of people having to tell us about the Lord, He tells us Himself through His Holy Spirit. That's how things are under the new covenant. It was not that way under the old covenant when the Holy Spirit was not yet poured out and did not yet come to dwell in people.

Jeremiah predicts a time when Evangelism will no longer be necessary. Most Christians, including Paul, believe that Evangelism remains essential. Therefore, your argument leads to an absurd conclusion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I john 2, the Spirit of God teaches His people.

Quite right. But Jeremiah is predicting a time when it will no longer be taught, "Know the Lord." The Holy Spirit is currently teaching "Know the Lord."

Paul foresees a future moment when the Spirit of Truth will withdraw, allowing the emergence of the man of Lawlessness, often referred to as the son of disobedience, as outlined in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, 13. During this period, the Holy Spirit, who typically serves as an advocate for truth and righteousness, will temporarily step back. In my perspective, we find ourselves in the midst of that troubling time at this very moment.

Nevertheless, Jeremiah speaks about a time when the people of Israel will learn faith in Jesus Christ from the Spirit of truth and they will all know him from the least of them to the greatest of them. This time is coming soon.

 

[covenantee]

When did I deny his New Covenant?

So you now agree that it was fulfilled in its entirety at Calvary?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So you now agree that it was fulfilled in its entirety at Calvary?

As I said before, Jesus' death on the cross inaugurated the New Covenant, but not all of it was fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jeremiah predicts a time when Evangelism will no longer be necessary. Most Christians, including Paul, believe that Evangelism remains essential. Therefore, your argument leads to an absurd conclusion.

I don't expect someone as carnal as you to understand spiritual things.

 

[covenantee]

As I said before, Jesus' death on the cross inaugurated the New Covenant, but not all of it was fulfilled.

Thus you deny the Blood of His Covenant in what you claim is unfulfilled.

"Inaugurate" of the New Covenant is nothing other than dispenbunk nonexistent in Scripture.

Copy/paste "inaugurate" from Matthew 26:28.

In bold red italics so we don't miss it.

Copy/paste "inaugurate" from 1 Corinthians 11:25.

In bold red italics so we don't miss it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't expect someone as carnal as you to understand spiritual things.

Do you honestly believe that evangelism is no longer necessary?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thus you deny the Blood of His Covenant in what you claim is unfulfilled.

"Inaugurate" of the New Covenant is nothing other than dispenbunk nonexistent in Scripture.

Copy/paste "inaugurate" from Matthew 26:28.

In bold red italics so we don't miss it.

Copy/paste "inaugurate" from 1 Corinthians 11:25.

In bold red italics so we don't miss it.

Try to understand the Jeremiah passage and answer my question. When has it ever been the case that evangelism was unnecessary?

 

[covenantee]

Try to understand the Jeremiah passage and answer my question. When has it ever been the case that evangelism was unnecessary?

Do you agree that you deny the Blood of Christ's New Covenant for what you claim is unfulfilled?