Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Doug]

It should be obvious that Isaiah 65:20 is figurative because taking it literally the way you do contradicts Revelation 21:4.


Why are you not addressing my point? It doesn't say the first new heaven and first new earth. The first heaven and first earth is the current heaven and earth that have existed since the beginning of time. But, you have Revelation 21 saying that the second new heavens and new earth replace the first new heavens and first new earth that pass away instead.

It should be obvious that Isaiah 65:20 is figurative because taking it literally the way you do contradicts Revelation 21:4.

I dont see it as figurative so I guess we will leave it at that

Why are you not addressing my point? It doesn't say the first new heaven and first new earth. The first heaven and first earth is the current heaven and earth that have existed since the beginning of time. But, you have Revelation 21 saying that the second new heavens and new earth replace the first new heavens and first new earth that pass away instead.

I thought I did address your points....sorry but I cant always follow......I address what I can.....if you really are wanting something addressed by me then restate it if need be

Isaiah 65:17 is saying there will be a new heavens and earth.....I agree that the first will pass away.....I am not saying that Isaiah 65:17 is describing the new heavens and earth as being fulfilled now .....Isaiah 65 is describing the millennial kingdom

 

[Scott Downey]

Isaiah 11
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 35
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

How will the lion eat straw if no lion shall be there?

Perhaps symbolic of how safe and peaceful will be the New Earth.

 

[covenantee]

Perhaps symbolic of how safe and peaceful will be the New Earth.

Yes. And how on this earth the gospel of Christ has the spiritual power to tame and eliminate the wild beast in every individual who believes and receives it.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes. And how on this earth the gospel of Christ has the spiritual power to tame and eliminate the wild beast in every individual who believes and receives it.

NT scriptures do talk of men as wild beasts

Titus 1
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Jude 1:10
But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

2 Peter 2
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to [a]carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, [b]carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,

 

[Doug]

It should be obvious that Isaiah 65:20 is figurative because taking it literally the way you do contradicts Revelation 21:4.


Why are you not addressing my point? It doesn't say the first new heaven and first new earth. The first heaven and first earth is the current heaven and earth that have existed since the beginning of time. But, you have Revelation 21 saying that the second new heavens and new earth replace the first new heavens and first new earth that pass away instead.

Look at these verses
[Isa 66:21-22 KJV] 21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Here are verses above to uphold my contention that Isaiah is talking about the millennium..........v21 priests serve in the temple which according to Ezekiel 40-48 exists in the millennium but not in the new heaven and earth (Rev 21:22)...................v22 does not say it is the new heaven and earth but it is AS the new heavens and earth......plus it says WILL MAKE.....the main point is there seed and name will remain before him

 

[AngelicArcher]

Everything that exists is of and from God. All creation is God's kingdom.

 

[Scott Downey]

Look at these verses
[Isa 66:21-22 KJV] 21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Here are verses above to uphold my contention that Isaiah is talking about the millennium..........v21 priests serve in the temple which according to Ezekiel 40-48 exists in the millennium but not in the new heaven and earth (Rev 21:22)...................v22 does not say it is the new heaven and earth but it is AS the new heavens and earth......plus it says WILL MAKE.....the main point is there seed and name will remain before him

Since all things have their fulfilments in Christ, when Christ comes, he creates new earth and heaven in which dwells righteousness.

All the prophets point to Christ. Jesus taught us they spoke of Him. Christ and what Christ does is the fulfillment of all that the prophets spoke.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [a]jot or one [b]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

When Christ comes we get our New heaven and New earth.

 

[Scott Downey]

If Christ was on this earth, He could not be a priest
So how can anyone say Christ will rule on a physical throne over flesh and blood people?

Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

Hebrews 8:4
For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;

And God says Christ is a priest forever. Especially so since He is glorified with all power and authority. The writer is telling us Christ ministers in heaven as our great high priest, making intercessions for us in the heavens.

Hebrews 7
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning [c]priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For [d]He testifies:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

*****************
As He is a priest forever, and if He were on earth He would NOT be a priest, it is not going to happen that Christ will leave off being our great high priest in heaven to rule over an earthly kingdom for 1000 years.

I can believe in the New heavens and earth, Heaven and earth merge, with the dwelling place of God in the New Jerusalem on the earth among men, but not before that, not on the old earth.
**********************

Revelation 21

All Things Made New​

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

not sure it doesnt say in this passage.......off the top of my head I would say both sheep and goats in each nation................[Mat 25:32-33 KJV] 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.........seems to be the case where it says they will be separated one from another

So, do you now understand that it's not talking about the judgment of nations since it's talking about eternal destinies, which only applies to individuals?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I thought I did address your points....sorry but I cant always follow......I address what I can.....if you really are wanting something addressed by me then restate it if need be

Isaiah 65:17 is saying there will be a new heavens and earth.....I agree that the first will pass away.....I am not saying that Isaiah 65:17 is describing the new heavens and earth as being fulfilled now .....Isaiah 65 is describing the millennial kingdom

Please try a little harder to see the point. I'll try one more time.

From what you have said, in your view Revelation 21 refers to a second new heavens and new earth while Isaiah 65 refers to a first new heavens and new earth. Is that correct? If so, keep that in mind while reading this...

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

If this is a second new heavens and new earth, then why did John not say that he saw a second new heaven and new earth for the first new heaven and first new earth had passed away?

The first heaven and first earth exist right now. So, John is talking about a new heaven and new earth replacing the heaven and earth that exist right now, not a second new heaven and new earth that replace a first new heaven and new earth.

 

[Scott Downey]

All the Old Testament promises of God are yes and amen in Christ

AMPC
For as many as are the promises of God, they all find their Yes [answer] in Him [Christ]. For this reason we also utter the Amen (so be it) to God through Him [in His Person and by His agency] to the glory of God.

ESVUK
For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

EXB
The yes to all of God’s promises is in ·Christ [L him], and through Christ we say ·yes [L amen; C from a Hebrew term meaning “yes,” or “it is true”] to the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 1
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me, Silvanus, and Timothy—was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Look at these verses
[Isa 66:21-22 KJV] 21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Here are verses above to uphold my contention that Isaiah is talking about the millennium..........v21 priests serve in the temple which according to Ezekiel 40-48 exists in the millennium but not in the new heaven and earth (Rev 21:22)...................v22 does not say it is the new heaven and earth but it is AS the new heavens and earth......plus it says WILL MAKE.....the main point is there seed and name will remain before him

Ezekiel 45:15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God. 16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel. 17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Why would you think that this is something that will happen in the future when Christ already made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete with His once for all sacrifice? Why would any animal sacrifice and offering be made in the future "to make reconciliation for the house of Israel" when Christ already shed His blood "once for all" to make reconciliation for the house of Israel and for the whole world?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All the Old Testament promises of God are yes and amen in Christ

AMPC
For as many as are the promises of God, they all find their Yes [answer] in Him [Christ]. For this reason we also utter the Amen (so be it) to God through Him [in His Person and by His agency] to the glory of God.

ESVUK
For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

EXB
The yes to all of God’s promises is in ·Christ [L him], and through Christ we say ·yes [L amen; C from a Hebrew term meaning “yes,” or “it is true”] to the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 1
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me, Silvanus, and Timothy—was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes. 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Yes, and amen. This is something that Premills do not understand.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

The dwelling place of God (CHRIST) with men ONLY happens on the NEW earth. This is separate from God indwelling his people in the spirit.

Revelation 21

All Things Made New​

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

 

[Doug]

So, do you now understand that it's not talking about the judgment of nations since it's talking about eternal destinies, which only applies to individuals?

Yes it is about the Gentile nations comprised of individuals.....I must say I have benefited from this.....wouldnt have gone in depth here......thanks.....I must say you have been respectful and these are the most conducive ways to communicate beliefs

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes it is about the Gentile nations comprised of individuals.....I must say I have benefited from this.....wouldnt have gone in depth here......thanks.....I must say you have been respectful and these are the most conducive ways to communicate beliefs

You're welcome. Just trying to help you think of things more broadly before deciding what you believe the scriptures are saying. I appreciate you being respectful as well. That's unusual for a Premill to be that way instead of just taking offense to my disagreements and making things personal.

 

[Doug]

Ezekiel 45:15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God. 16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel. 17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Why would you think that this is something that will happen in the future when Christ already made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete with His once for all sacrifice? Why would any animal sacrifice and offering be made in the future "to make reconciliation for the house of Israel" when Christ already shed His blood "once for all" to make reconciliation for the house of Israel and for the whole world?

To be honest I have not studied this in detail but what I understand is in the millennium there will be a temple and resumption of the sacrifices to cleanse all who have entered the kingdom physically and are subject to sin.....there are modifications to the old covenant temple sacrifices.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To be honest I have not studied this in detail but what I understand is in the millennium there will be a temple and resumption of the sacrifices to cleanse all who have entered the kingdom physically and are subject to sin.....there are modifications to the old covenant temple sacrifices.

What modifications are those? It says in Ezekiel 45:15-17 that their purpose would be for reconciliation (atonement for sins). But, what more sacrifice for reconciliation is needed beyond Christ's sacrifice?

 

[Doug]

What modifications are those? It says in Ezekiel 45:15-17 that their purpose would be for reconciliation (atonement for sins). But, what more sacrifice for reconciliation is needed beyond Christ's sacrifice?

different numbers of sacrifices
different measurements
no wash basin
no lampstand
no wall of partition
No table for shewbread
no vail

 

[Doug]

It says in Ezekiel 45:15-17 that their purpose would be for reconciliation (atonement for sins). But, what more sacrifice for reconciliation is needed beyond Christ's sacrifice?

I cant say anything more than it being for reconciliation........Israel will be back under the law as seen by the new covenant Jer 31:31 that may be a reason for sacrifices