Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

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Doug

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I don't know what you're saying here. Are you trying to say that you think Isaiah 65:20 doesn't relate to the new heavens and new earth even though it clearly does? Isaiah starts talking about the new heavens and new earth in verse 17 and then proceeds to talk about until verse 25.
[Isa 65:17 KJV] 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[Rev 21:1 KJV] 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
What I am trying to say is that Isaiah 65 is describing the millennial kingdom...........Isaiah 65 say new HEAVENS.....Rev21 says new HEAVEN singular.....similar wording but not the same

Isaiah 65:20 people literally die ......not so in Rev 21
Both Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 say the wolf and lamb feed together.......Isaiah 11 says nothing about new heaven and earth
 

covenantee

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[Isa 65:17 KJV] 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[Rev 21:1 KJV] 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
What I am trying to say is that Isaiah 65 is describing the millennial kingdom...........Isaiah 65 say new HEAVENS.....Rev21 says new HEAVEN singular.....similar wording but not the same

Isaiah 65:20 people literally die ......not so in Rev 21
Both Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 say the wolf and lamb feed together.......Isaiah 11 says nothing about new heaven and earth
Isaiah 11
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 35
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

How will the lion eat straw if no lion shall be there?
 

Doug

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Isaiah 11
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 35
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

How will the lion eat straw if no lion shall be there?
[Isa 35:8-9 KJV] 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it [shall be] for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err [therein]. 9 No lion shall be there, nor [any] ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk [there]:

I would say there will not be a lion on the highway

It seems the highway will lead to Zion...........[Isa 35:10 KJV] 10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
 

Doug

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Do you think the following is talking about a number of nations "as the sand of the sea"?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
It says as the sand of the sea which means a large number of people from the nations
 

covenantee

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[Isa 35:8-9 KJV] 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it [shall be] for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err [therein]. 9 No lion shall be there, nor [any] ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk [there]:

I would say there will not be a lion on the highway

It seems the highway will lead to Zion...........[Isa 35:10 KJV] 10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
So there will not be a lion on the highway, but there could be a lion beside the highway?
 
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Doug

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So there will not be a lion on the highway, but there could be a lion beside the highway?
werent you saying there are no lions/ but now asking about lions next to it? not sure what you are saying
 

covenantee

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werent you saying there are no lions/ but now asking about lions next to it? not sure what you are saying
Scripture says, no lion shall be there.

You say, there will not be a lion on the highway.

So you interpret "there" to be restricted to "on the highway".

What about off the highway? Could there be lions there?
 

Doug

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Scripture says, no lion shall be there.

You say, there will not be a lion on the highway.

So you interpret "there" to be restricted to "on the highway".

What about off the highway? Could there be lions there?
Does scripture say anything about that?

If there were lions that would contradict you saying there are no lions to eat straw as Isaiah says
 

Spiritual Israelite

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[Isa 65:17 KJV] 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[Rev 21:1 KJV] 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
What I am trying to say is that Isaiah 65 is describing the millennial kingdom...........Isaiah 65 say new HEAVENS.....Rev21 says new HEAVEN singular.....similar wording but not the same

Isaiah 65:20 people literally die ......not so in Rev 21
Both Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 say the wolf and lamb feed together.......Isaiah 11 says nothing about new heaven and earth
Isaiah 65:20 is figurative. It refers to a 100 year old being thought of as being a child which is a figurative way of indicating that the person doesn't age at all, which represents eternity when no one will age because of being immortal.

So, you believe in two new heavens and two new earths then, apparently? If Isaiah 65:17-25 is referring to a different new heavens and new earth than Revelation 21, then why does Revelation 21:1 say "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" instead of "I saw a second new heaven and a second new earth: for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away"?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It says as the sand of the sea which means a large number of people from the nations
Yes, exactly, but the text itself does not say that. It's something you discern using common sense.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The text itself refers to Satan deceiving that nations which are in the four quarters of the earth and "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea". Obviously, it's not saying the number of nations number as the sand of the sea, but is saying the number of people numbers as the sand of the sea. So, it would've been better translated to say that Satan goes out to deceive the people or the people of the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth than to say that he goes out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth. Apply that same concept to Mathew 25:31-46 so that you can understand that people are being judged there, not nations.
 

Doug

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Scripture says, no lion shall be there.

You say, there will not be a lion on the highway.

So you interpret "there" to be restricted to "on the highway".

What about off the highway? Could there be lions there?
Scripture says Lions will eat straw so there must be lions somewhere
 

Doug

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Isaiah 65:20 is figurative. It refers to a 100 year old being thought of as being a child which is a figurative way of indicating that the person doesn't age at all, which represents eternity when no one will age because of being immortal.

So, you believe in two new heavens and two new earths then, apparently? If Isaiah 65:17-25 is referring to a different new heavens and new earth than Revelation 21, then why does Revelation 21:1 say "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" instead of "I saw a second new heaven and a second new earth: for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away"?
Isaiah 65:20 is figurative. It refers to a 100 year old being thought of as being a child which is a figurative way of indicating that the person doesn't age at all, which represents eternity when no one will age because of being immortal.
Isaiah says " for the child shall die " thats not figurative.......one could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine
So, you believe in two new heavens and two new earths then, apparently? If Isaiah 65:17-25 is referring to a different new heavens and new earth than Revelation 21, then why does Revelation 21:1 say "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" instead of "I saw a second new heaven and a second new earth: for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away"?
The millennial kingdom does reflect a new creation in a variety of aspects......the millennium kingdom is not like the condition of the first earth

The new heaven and earth of Rev 21:1 would replace the first
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Isaiah says " for the child shall die " thats not figurative.......one could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine
That's a ridiculous comment to make. We all know there is some figurative text in scripture, so seeing something as figurative does not mean "one could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine".

I'm sure you believe the east with seven heads and ten horns is figurative. Does that mean by seeing it that way you "could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine"?

Tell me, did you read the verse before Isaiah 65:20 that says there will be no more weeping and crying in the new heavens and new earth, which matches what it says in Revelation 21:4? Why do you think that Isaiah 65:19 and Revelation 21:4 are referring to different new heavens and new earths? What do you think, that when someone dies during the thousand years no one weeps or cries over their deaths? You have no mourning taking place during the thousand years? No one will care that their loved ones have died anymore?

The millennial kingdom does reflect a new creation in a variety of aspects......the millennium kingdom is not like the condition of the first earth

The new heaven and earth of Rev 21:1 would replace the first
You are dodging the point. It does NOT say in Revelation 21:1 that the second new heavens and second new earth replaces the first new heaven and first new earth. It says the new heavens and new earth replace the first heaven and first earth which are the heaven and earth that exist right now and have existed since the beginning of time.
 

Doug

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Yes, exactly, but the text itself does not say that. It's something you discern using common sense.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The text itself refers to Satan deceiving that nations which are in the four quarters of the earth and "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea". Obviously, it's not saying the number of nations number as the sand of the sea, but is saying the number of people numbers as the sand of the sea. So, it would've been better translated to say that Satan goes out to deceive the people or the people of the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth than to say that he goes out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth. Apply that same concept to Mathew 25:31-46 so that you can understand that people are being judged there, not nations.
[Mat 25:34-35, 37 KJV] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: ... 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

As I said before there can be a national judgement.........but in v 34 a nation cant enter the kingdom only individuals.......v35 individuals are the ye........v37 individuals can answer......Jesus is exercising a corporate judgement on the nations that filters down to individuals.....that is my understanding
 

Doug

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That's a ridiculous comment to make. We all know there is some figurative text in scripture, so seeing something as figurative does not mean "one could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine".

I'm sure you believe the east with seven heads and ten horns is figurative. Does that mean by seeing it that way you "could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine"?

Tell me, did you read the verse before Isaiah 65:20 that says there will be no more weeping and crying in the new heavens and new earth, which matches what it says in Revelation 21:4? Why do you think that Isaiah 65:19 and Revelation 21:4 are referring to different new heavens and new earths? What do you think, that when someone dies during the thousand years no one weeps or cries over their deaths? You have no mourning taking place during the thousand years? No one will care that their loved ones have died anymore?


You are dodging the point. It does NOT say in Revelation 21:1 that the second new heavens and second new earth replaces the first new heaven and first new earth. It says the new heavens and new earth replace the first heaven and first earth which are the heaven and earth that exist right now and have existed since the beginning of time.
That's a ridiculous comment to make. We all know there is some figurative text in scripture, so seeing something as figurative does not mean "one could make anything in scripture figurative to uphold any doctrine".
I didnt say there was not allegorical or figurative passages......just saying they are stated as such or obvious (Jesus is the door)
Tell me, did you read the verse before Isaiah 65:20 that says there will be no more weeping and crying in the new heavens and new earth, which matches what it says in Revelation 21:4
[Isa 35:10 KJV] 10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

[Isa 51:11 KJV] 11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy [shall be] upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; [and] sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Rev 21 is not the only place this is found
You are dodging the point. It does NOT say in Revelation 21:1 that the second new heavens and second new earth replaces the first new heaven and first new earth. It says the new heavens and new earth replace the first heaven and first earth which are the heaven and earth that exist right now and have existed since the beginning of time.
Thats right Rev 21:1 says the first heaven and earth will pass away
 

Spiritual Israelite

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[Mat 25:34-35, 37 KJV] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: ... 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

As I said before there can be a national judgement.........but in v 34 a nation cant enter the kingdom only individuals.......v35 individuals are the ye........v37 individuals can answer......Jesus is exercising a corporate judgement on the nations that filters down to individuals.....that is my understanding
Can there be both sheep and goats in each of those nations or do you see each nation as including only sheep (the righteous) or only goats (ye cursed)?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I didnt say there was not allegorical or figurative passages......just saying they are stated as such or obvious (Jesus is the door)
It should be obvious that Isaiah 65:20 is figurative because taking it literally the way you do contradicts Revelation 21:4.

[Isa 35:10 KJV] 10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

[Isa 51:11 KJV] 11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy [shall be] upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; [and] sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Rev 21 is not the only place this is found

Thats right Rev 21:1 says the first heaven and earth will pass away
Why are you not addressing my point? It doesn't say the first new heaven and first new earth. The first heaven and first earth is the current heaven and earth that have existed since the beginning of time. But, you have Revelation 21 saying that the second new heavens and new earth replace the first new heavens and first new earth that pass away instead.
 

Scott Downey

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Jesus Peter Paul all teach the earth, and heaven will pass away with a great noise and melt and burn when He returns, why is that so controversial as to when this happens?

The relevant verses teach that. Problem is man has been teaching when Christ returns the heaven and earth do not pass away, Christ rules on this physical old earth a kingdom over flesh and blood old earth people and there is no twinkling of the eye change at his second coming.

Scriptures mention a new heaven and earth coming, this set goes, flees away from the face of God, passes away, and it says no place is found for them. There is no third new earth and new heaven to come in the future. And we cannot possibly be in the new earth and new heavens today as that does not agree with Paul's 'sudden destruction' of the wicked, we still have many wicked here on earth. Or Peter's fire of destruction which melts the entire earth. We only read in scripture of a fiery destruction when Christ returns. And that agrees with what John the Baptist proclaimed, What Christ proclaims, and the apostle's doctrines.

Possibly the great noise is the trumpet of God.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luke 16
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one [a]tittle of the law to fail.


Mark 13

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

1 Thess 5

The Day of the Lord​

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore [b]comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 
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Doug

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Can there be both sheep and goats in each of those nations or do you see each nation as including only sheep (the righteous) or only goats (ye cursed)?
not sure it doesnt say in this passage.......off the top of my head I would say both sheep and goats in each nation................[Mat 25:32-33 KJV] 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.........seems to be the case where it says they will be separated one from another
 

Scott Downey

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On the Law and the earth and heavens passing away

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The Law was given because of transgression (sin). In the New earth and heaven, we will have total righteousness, there will be no need for the Law as there will no longer be sin and transgressions against God. Since we are no longer under the LAW today as believers in Christ, the New Earth and heavens can now come. Before Christ came, we could not have had a new earth and new heaven, after Christ made us righteous by faith, the door for the new earth and heaven to come is opened. But it is not here yet, it's coming when Christ returns in flaming fire to destroy the wicked in a sudden destruction, those who do not believe, those who do not obey the gospel.

'till all is fulfilled', all will be fulfilled when the restoration of all things happens in the regeneration. And this happens when Christ returns.
See it all fits nicely together.

ACTS 3
20 and that He may send [a]Jesus Christ, who was [b]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [c]the world began.

Now this here in ACTS 3, Peter is pointing us to all the OT prophecies of the second coming of CHRIST, and the regeneration of earth and heaven, ie, the new earth and new heaven. Where God says, Behold, I make all things new, and the former things won't be remembered or come into mind.

The prophecies pre-mills point towards as an old earth 1000 year reign, have an error. As this is at the NEW earth and New Heavens, that is the restoration.

**********************************************************
Romans 8 here is teaching us about the NEW earth and New heavens coming our way

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Galatians 3

Purpose of the Law​

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs​

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.