It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

OK then: please answer it:

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Ok. You have nothing. Nothing for Number 2 either. How about Number 3?

 

[The Light]

Ok. You have nothing. Nothing for Number 2 either. How about Number 3?

So you don't understand "Which are a shadow of things to come", means?

Just out of curiosity do you understand what this verse means?
Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[WPM]

So you don't understand "Which are a shadow of things to come", means?

Just out of curiosity do you understand what this verse means?
Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Christ fulfilled the old covenant types and shadows in full through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. We now function in the blessing and overflow of that.

 

[The Light]

Christ fulfilled the old covenant types and shadows in full through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. We now function in the blessing and overflow of that.

So scriptures in the Old Testament don't apply?

 

[WPM]

So scriptures in the Old Testament don't apply?

The Old Testament pointed us to Jesus Christ. Christ perfectly and powerfully fulfilled the Old. Do you disagree?

By the way, do you realize, lurkers are witnessing the inability of Pretribbers to support their wild claims and their constant avoidance of answering basic questions? You do more to reinforce Amil than I can do.

 

[The Light]

The OT pointed us to Jesus Christ. Christ perfectly and powerfully fulfilled the Old. Do you disagree?

By the way, do you realize, lurkers are witnessing the inability of Pretribbers to support their wild claims and their constant avoidance of answering basic questions? You do more to reinforce Amil than I can do.

LOL. Bud you can't produce one single verse supporting a your so-called post trib rapture. and you think the 7th seal is already opened and most of the trumpets have happened. Ridiculous.

 

[WPM]

LOL. Bud you can't produce one single verse supporting a your so-called post trib rapture. and you think the 7th seal is already opened and most of the trumpets have happened. Ridiculous.

Not true! More noise!

All the time, you refuse to address the Op that reinforces the Amil position.

 

[WPM]

Your argument has one HUGE problem. You might look at verse 31.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This verse comes BEFORE the verse about heaven and earth passing away so what you say is as usual incorrect. Heaven and earth passing away is not the things He is referring to. ALL THESE THINGS which come to pass are things that are talked about in the prior verses of Matthew 24.

Really? If (as the text teaches) Christians actually "see these things come to pass" on earth - namely the final redemption of our bodies, the removal of the current heavens and earth with its existing bondage of corruption and the introduction of the kingdom of God, then it is actually you that has "one HUGE problem." It forbids your imaginary future Pretrib rapture teaching. After all, this places the conflagration at the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Read what Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36, not what you have been taught: “there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

 

[The Light]

Really? If (as the text teaches) Christians actually "see these things come to pass" on earth - namely the final redemption of our bodies, the removal of the current heavens and earth with its existing bondage of corruption and the introduction of the kingdom of God, then it is actually you that has "one HUGE problem." It forbids your imaginary future Pretrib rapture teaching. After all, this places the conflagration at the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christians actually see these things come to pass on earth? Of course, Christians see these things come to pass on the earth. The question is which Christians. It's certainly not todays Church. They will be in heaven as they will escape the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

How does the Church escape the hour of testing? Obviously they will not be on the earth.

Revelation 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel and her seed is the 12 tribes across the earth who will have the testimony of Jesus Christ and keep the commandments of God. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits for the 12 tribes as the second harvest will be the 12 tribes across the earth. The woman will remain on earth in a place of protection during the wrath of God. The believers will be in heaven for the marriage supper.

Read what Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36, not what you have been taught: “there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

As shown above the Church will escape the hour of testing which occurs during the great tribulation. The verses above are talking about the Day of the Lord coming.

Both folds will be off the earth before the Day of the Lord. That is why the gathering from heaven and earth occurs when Jesus comes................and remains in the clouds.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Taken]

OSAS ~
Yes. The ALL KNOWING Lord SAVES A Heartfully BELIEVING MAN “ONCE” After the mans BODY Dies..

No ~ Men do not bodily Die, come back to Life…and say…Golly God…could you UN-Converted me…LOL!!

1 Thes 1:
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Us ~
The Converted;
(Saved & Quickened);
“IN” Christ.

Matt 24:
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Before First Tribulation sent from Heaven…
Days of Noah…death and destruction upon the face of the Whole Earth…

The SAVED Noah, 7 others…Lifted up Above the Earth.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Before Second and Last Tribulation sent from Heaven…
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

Christians actually see these things come to pass on earth? Of course, Christians see these things come to pass on the earth. The question is which Christians. It's certainly not todays Church. They will be in heaven as they will escape the hour of testing that will come upon the whole world.

No! He could come tonight and rescue us, destroy the wicked, remove corruption, and glorify creation. He could come anytime. Then it is over. It is the end! The text blows Pretrib out of the water. There is no imaginary Pretrib rapture. That is a Jesuit invention.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

How does the Church escape the hour of testing? Obviously they will not be on the earth.

Revelation 3
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

This has been refuted many times. This is an historic account that is long-fulfilled. You are twisting Scripture to support your erro.

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here in Revelation 3:10. You add that unto the text.
• There is no mention of a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

Pretribulationalists render this promise irrelevant, meaningless and pointless, as none of the 7 churches went through your so-called end-time tribulation and none of them were raptured. In your rational, every single church in history apart from your supposed 7-year tribulation period will automatically be rewarded by not being on earth for this period (regardless of their faithfulness or unfaithfulness). That is ridiculous. In reality, according to your argument, the Philadelphian church was not rewarded.

This type of interpretation is what is required when you have nothing concrete in Scripture to support your paradigm.

Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.

Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.

 

[The Light]

No! He could come tonight and rescue us, destroy the wicked, remove corruption, and glorify creation. He could come anytime. Then it is over. It is the end! The text blows Pretrib out of the water. There is no imaginary Pretrib rapture. That is a Jesuit invention.

Impossible. There has been no man of sin revealed so your contention as usual is not scriptural. You have blown nothing out of the water except what you have stated.

Additionally, make up your mind. Who so called invented the pre trib rapture, the Jesuits or John Nelson Darby. I'll help you, neither it's in the Bible.

Secondly, Augustine is one of the inventors of your false doctrine. Those that did not believe that God would keep His promise to Israel have been proven wrong by the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

This has been refuted many times. This is an historic account that is long-fulfilled. You are twisting Scripture to support your erro.

Nah. See below.

• There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here in Revelation 3:10. You add that unto the text.

Hmmm. Probably would help if your read verse 3
Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

• There is no mention of a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

There is no word rapture mentioned in the whole Bible, which proves nothing.
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

• There is no mention of a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

There is no seven year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel. It is not mentioned either which means absolutely nothing.

• There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.

This is not the third coming so why would it be mentioned? Your plethora of straw men are easily knocked down.

Pretribulationalists render this promise irrelevant, meaningless and pointless, as none of the 7 churches went through your so-called end-time tribulation and none of them were raptured.

Why would these Churches go through the end times? Has the man of sin been revealed? Were you expecting these churches to be raptured thousands of years ago? Jesus said He is coming, was He wrong?
Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

In your rational, every single church in history apart from your supposed 7-year tribulation period will automatically be rewarded by not being on earth for this period (regardless of their faithfulness or unfaithfulness).

There is no 7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week of Daniel.

That is ridiculous. In reality, according to your argument, the Philadelphian church was not rewarded.

How in the world do you come up with this baloney? They will be rewarded when Jesus comes.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This type of interpretation is what is required when you have nothing concrete in Scripture to support your paradigm.

You can't even find your rapture in scripture. The things you believe are not in scripture.

Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.

Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.

WHAT??????????????????????????????????????????????????

So the post trib rapture has happened already???????????????????????????

When did it occur??????????????????????????????

 

[WPM]

Impossible. There has been no man of sin revealed so your contention as usual is not scriptural. You have blown nothing out of the water except what you have stated.

Additionally, make up your mind. Who so called invented the pre trib rapture, the Jesuits or John Nelson Darby. I'll help you, neither it's in the Bible.

Secondly, Augustine is one of the inventors of your false doctrine. Those that did not believe that God would keep His promise to Israel have been proven wrong by the rebirth of the nation of Israel.


Nah. See below.


Hmmm. Probably would help if your read verse 3
Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

There is no word rapture mentioned in the whole Bible, which proves nothing.
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is no seven year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel. It is not mentioned either which means absolutely nothing.


This is not the third coming so why would it be mentioned? Your plethora of straw men are easily knocked down.


Why would these Churches go through the end times? Has the man of sin been revealed? Were you expecting these churches to be raptured thousands of years ago? Jesus said He is coming, was He wrong?
Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


There is no 7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week of Daniel.


How in the world do you come up with this baloney? They will be rewarded when Jesus comes.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.




You can't even find your rapture in scripture. The things you believe are not in scripture.


Rev 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


WHAT??????????????????????????????????????????????????

So the post trib rapture has happened already???????????????????????????

When did it occur??????????????????????????????

Watch my lips: this has nothing to do with a rapture of the Church. It is talking about God preserving a local church 2000 years ago from intense persecution. You have nothing to refute that. You have zero Scripture to support this extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine.

The Bible teaches one final future coming of Jesus for His Church. That is it. That ushers in the end - as proven in the text you are desperate to move from in Luke. Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with the end. This shows how bankrupt Pretrib is. It has zero corroboration.

 

[WPM]

Mat 25 is a vivid picture of the pretrib rapture as well as acts 1 and mat 24 " before the flood one taken, one left"
Rev 14 has the Jewish main harvest DURING THE TRIB.
REV 19 IS YOUR postrib coming with zero rapture.

...and yes those verses are extremely evasive to your workbook.
...not really, just strangely omitted.

Why do you not quote the text? Because it does not support your claims. The burden of proof is with you. You are the one making the claims.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do you not quote the text? Because it does not support your claims. The burden of proof is with you. You are the one making the claims.

Go play
My position is obvious to all but the non versed in scripture.
Sorry you are forbidden to read THE REFERENCES I CLEARLY POSTED.

 

[covenantee]

There is no 7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week of Daniel.

There was a 70th week of Daniel 2,000 years ago.

All fulfilled because it was determined. Daniel 9:24

 

[The Light]

There was a 70th week of Daniel 2,000 years ago.

All fulfilled because it was determined. Daniel 9:24

You might want to read the rest of Daniel 9.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Watch my lips: this has nothing to do with a rapture of the Church. It is talking about God preserving a local church 2000 years ago from intense persecution. You have nothing to refute that. You have zero Scripture to support this extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine.

The Bible teaches one final future coming of Jesus for His Church. That is it. That ushers in the end - as proven in the text you are desperate to move from in Luke. Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with the end. This shows how bankrupt Pretrib is. It has zero corroboration.

Which of the 2 in matt24 is the "one coming"
But then a third in Rev 14:14.
Oh well just omit those verses as you do in Acts ch1

 

[rebuilder 454]

Maybe Rev 19 when Jesus comes with millions of horses is the one coming?

Then he gets off his horse and changes utensils and clothing, sits on a cloud, to be the harvester of Rev 14:14?????
Wow what a grand canyon leap!!!
Oh wait,wait, neither of those fits acts ch 1 coming on like manner, but acts one fits matt24: 40, matt 25, and 1 thes 4, and ever other Rapture verse.
But some need all that off the table.

Any gullible enough to go with "one coming" lie??????
Yep!