The Daniel 9:27 hallucinatory antichrist is the epitome of foolishness.
Conspicuously absent from any OT lexicon.
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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Conspicuously absent from any OT lexicon.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It boggles my mind when pretribs associate a verse about Christ to an Antichrist instead. It doesn't get any worse than that.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Make requests to heaven for apologies to Lot and the baby Jesus.
Wow, the audacity of God to remove his people, instead of letting the A C murder them.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The Bible says all take the mark.
Every man, woman and child not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
All of you will be martyred ,nobody, as far as being a Christian, makes it through the tribulation without a mark from the AC
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
ChristinaL
Active Member
This coming from someone who needs to learn discernment and bible interpretation
ChristinaL
Active Member
That is not so. Yes many Christians have been kept safe from persecution over 2000 years but you are forgetting that none of them were under the rule of Satan incarnate. Revelation 3:10 is clear that we are kept from not preserved through Tribulation. Most The church isnt even IN Revelation need I remind you? Its all Trib saints and they are not part of the church.
Most of them are murdered for their faith btw or killed as collateral damage in the increasing natural disasters/wars yet to come. How is that being preserved through Tribulation?
Also note
Jude 1:14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
This is the LORD's Second coming and we accompany Him. We are in heaven with Him and it makes no sense for us to go to heaven to be with Him only to come back down immediately
1 Thessalonians 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
IN THE AIR. Meaning IN HEAVEN-not in Jerusalem as those who believe in a post-trib Rapture claim- this written for people who had little concept of a heaven outside this universe so it was written in a way more easy to understand for most people.
Revelation 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
We are the armies, this isnt God's angels. We are the ones given fine linen white and clean.
Revelation 19:6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
This is us in heaven, not just those who have passed on before us
ChristinaL
Active Member
Yes these are Jewish and Gentile Trib saints, those not saved before the pre-trib Rapture. God will preserve a remnant of the Jews, many believe in Rose Petra in Jordan. This is also believed by many to be a partial explanation of Rev 12 where it says the woman shall be taken into the wilderness to be kept safe for 3-1/2 years. This is a perfect place for it is nearly impossible for armies to get through the extremely narrow passageways leading to the structures and I have heard estimates that it can hold 800000 people, maybe more
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What does that mean?
If that is what "kept from" meant in that verse, then why doesn't it mean that in this verse as well?
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
You don't need to remind me of your false doctrine. This is absolutely ridiculous. There is no such thing as "trib saints" in scripture. That is a made up term by pre-trib dispensationalists. That concept is not taught anywhere in scripture. Anyone who belongs to Christ is part of the church. Scripture never says otherwise. There are no exceptions to that.
Revelation 3:10 talks about the hour of trial or hour of temptation. If someone is killed for their faith, has Satan defeated that person? No, their soul then goes to heaven. It's talking about keeping someone from falling to temptation. If someone is killed for their faith that is not a case of not being protected from temptation. You are taking that verse completely out of context.
The souls of the dead in Christ will be with Him when He comes, as this verse alludes to:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
So, Jude 1:14 is talking about the souls of the saints who have died coming with the Lord from heaven.
In the air does not mean in heaven. Stop changing scripture to fit your doctrine. No, those who are post-trib premillennialists believe that Jesus is coming to Jerusalem, but not post-trib amillennialists like me. While in the air with His people Jesus will destroy all of His enemies.
That's the souls of the dead in Christ. Unless you believe in soul sleep, you shouldn't have trouble understanding this. The fine linen is not literal, but rather symbolically represents "the righteousness of saints".
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Wrong. Those are the souls of the dead in Christ which John had seen previously in Revelation 6:9-11. It would be those souls he saw as of that time (fifth seal) along with the souls of any in Christ who died after that up to the day Christ returns.
ChristinaL
Active Member
John 17:15 was speaking of His immediate disciples not us
One lesson you really need to learn is that just because a certain phrase or word is not mentioned in the bible, like Trinity, (Pre-Trib) Rapture, Tribulation Saints, that does not mean it's not taught.
Rev. 7:9-17 (summary) – A great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, stood before the throne of God clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev. 13:7-10 (summary) – Also it [the Beast] was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. … Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
Rev. 15:2-3a – And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb.
Rev. 20:4 – Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
And NO, the Trib saints are NOT part of the Church. I already explained 6 ways from Sunday how the Church is not even on this earth. You need tto learn how to pay attention.
Rev 3:10 - the hour of temptation is another description of the Tribulation, sent to try those who live upon the earth. That refers to those earthly minded souls, who havent given their hearts to Christ.
1Thess 4:14 -16 speaks of the dead who will rise first and then we shall follow immediately after
and "in the air" does mean in heaven
You are wrong on all counts. I had started a long explanation of all your error but my Parkinsons caused me to lose it all.. So it has to wait grrr
You cannot address any rebuttals from others. All you have is your denials. That is it. That amounts to nothing. You do not have one single text that supports Pretrib.
If you have you would have produced it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is irrelevant. I'm showing you what the words translated as "kept...from" mean. There's no reason to think it means one thing in John 17:15 and something entirely different in Revelation 3:10. Only those who try to make scripture say what they want it to say do that.
It is very clear to me that you have nothing to teach me. You have been taught wrong and now you're trying to teach others that same false doctrine you have been taught.
I'm fully aware of that and that isn't what I was saying. The concept of trib saints is not taught in scripture. You try to create separate groups that belong to Christ, but scripture never does. We (believers in Christ) are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26-29).
It does not say "THE great tribulation" in the original Greek (no Greek word for "the" is there). It's referring to great tribulation that all believers go through.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
That's not trib saints, that's Christians who are in the church. All Christians for the past almost 2,000 years have needed to endure and keep their faith. The beast is not just an entity that appears for a short time near the end of the age. John said "the beast was" before he wrote the book (Rev 17:8). It "is not" in some sense at the time he wrote the book, but one of it's heads "is" at the time he wrote the book. That means the beast was around, but its power was restrained. Many Christians have been persecuted for a long time now, so what that passage describes is nothing new.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
What is the point of referencing this verse? None of these verses support the false idea of "trib saints". Saints have been going through tribulation for almost 2,000 years now, so all who are in the church are "trib saints".
There is no such thing as "trib saints" apart from the church. That is completely imaginary dispensational nonsense.
You need to learn how to interpret scripture. Your words mean nothing to me if they can't be supported by scripture. And they can't.
Since when does God not want those in the church to be tried and tested?
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
The people in the church in Smyrna would have laughed at the idea of a pre-trib rapture. I guarantee that. Jesus told them to be faithful unto death and He would give them a crown of life. That is what Jesus says to all of us. But, you think you will be taken off of the earth instead of having to be faithful unto death. That is a doctrine of demons because it promotes the fear of persecution and tribulation and can cause you to not be prepared to stand up for your faith if you are persecuted.
What does 1 Thess 4:14 mean when it talks about "them also which sleep in Jesus" being with Him when He comes? Do you believe in soul sleep or something? Is that why you are not addressing what I'm saying about them being the souls of the dead in Christ who will be with Him when He comes?
No, it does not. It refers to the earth's atmosphere. What evidence do you have to support that it refers to heaven? If it referred to heaven, then why didn't Paul just say we will meet Him in heaven? Any other time he spoke of heaven he referred to it as....heaven.
The Greek word translated as "the air" in 1 Thess 4:17 is "aēr" and it never means heaven in scripture.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that, but you are doing nothing to prove me wrong about anything. You're not addressing who it is that will be with Jesus when He comes, as 1 Thess 4:14 alludes to. That verse is talking about those who will be with Him before the dead in Christ are resurrected and before they (the resurrected dead in Christ), along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.
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ChristinaL
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