It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[marks]

The way I see it; is that everybody will be seen to be wrong to some extent. Me as well, but we will all be Judged on how much we misinterpreted scripture and much we influenced others, with the truth or with error.
That is why we should be very careful to not make guesses and wild assertions about Prophecy.

Two instances of this mistake, can be seen on this thread:
1/ Where are the great multitude of Revelation 7:9? We are not directly told, but that Chapter sets an earthly scene.

In chapter 4 we learn this throne was set in heaven, so there isn't any ambiguity here. Jesus won't return to earth until many other intervening prophecies will be fulfilled, so we can know this is an heavenly scene.

Revelation 7:9-17 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

2/ The belief that we Christians will not experience tribulation. This idea is contrary to the Bible and Jesus Himself had to go thru the pain of torture and death, to achieve His reward.

This is an oft used straw man. I think the rapture will be pre-trib, and I understand fully that my life will have tribulation in it, and who knows to what degree?

But at the same time, tribulations that are in the world right now are not being experienced by my mother, who passed away years ago. She likewise knew tribulation in her life, but she will not experience the Great Tribulation, she just won't be here. Not all who have lived will experience the tribulation of the end of the age, so many have already gone by now, with more that will by gone by then. Gone by death, gone by rapture, there is no difference.

Isaiah 57:1-2 KJV
1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Clearly, pretrib is based on many assumptions and not on clear scripture. They read a lot of things into Daniel 9 that are simply not there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you understand that you have just made the statement that Jesus coming to rapture His people is a doctrine of demons?

Do you understand that I did NOT say that at all? I'm talking about the pre-trib rapture doctrine and not about the rapture itself. And you know it. You're acting dumb in order to try to misrepresent what I said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isnt that cute? You dont know what your saying. Matthew 24:44 says yeah and it could happen at any time so be ready.

And you guys keep preaching oh dont look for Him pre trib, so that's how I know you are not watching for Him pre trib! Because you said so.

You truly have no idea of what you're talking about, as you prove over and over again. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[ChristinaL]

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

#1 Ok I just told you. But if you want more detail look to Revelation 12 (another Rapture prophecy) where it mentions 3-1/2 years twice. Yes Rev 12 is in part a Rapture prophecy (its not Mary as Catholics believe as she was not taken into the wilderness for 3-1/2 years. Joseph ad Mary would never have gone into the harsh unforgiving desert but they went to one of the cities along the Nile, most likely Alexandretta, where there was a large Jewish presence). Rev 12 speaks of the woman- in part Israel and in part the church. The manchild is Christ in the church which is caught up to heaven to be kept safe from Satan.

#2 I TOLD you. Dan 9:27 which connects to Rev 12 as well as Daniel 12: 11-12 which speaks of 7 years plus an extra 75 days- the reason for the extra 75 days is not well understood however

#3-4 Good golly do you not know how to read? I already said they werent there.

#5 Dan 9: 27 cuts that one week off because it was a future prophecy. Daniel 9:27 Commentary | Precept Austin

#6 Dan 9:27.

#7. Again do learn how to pay attention...do I really need to answer this a third time?

#8 Once again ALREADY ANSWERED. The temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices reinstated. The a/c will allow it for a short time but them stop them all halfway thru the Trib

#9. They arent in Dan 9 but in Dan 11:34

#11 Ezekiel 41 2 Thess 2:7, and Rev 11

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

#1 Ok I just told you. But if you want more detail look to Revelation 12 (another Rapture prophecy) where it mentions 3-1/2 years twice. Yes Rev 12 is in part a Rapture prophecy (its not Mary as Catholics believe as she was not taken into the wilderness for 3-1/2 years. Joseph ad Mary would never have gone into the harsh unforgiving desert but they went to one of the cities along the Nile, most likely Alexandretta, where there was a large Jewish presence). Rev 12 speaks of the woman- in part Israel and in part the church. The manchild is Christ in the church which is caught up to heaven to be kept safe from Satan.

Show me any scripture which says we need to be taken off of the earth in order to be kept safe from Satan. You won't find it. You are directly contradicting what Jesus prayed for.

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Jesus prayed to the Father that He would not take His people out of the world, but would instead protect us from Satan while we're here. Many Chrisitians have been persecuted for almost 2,000 years but you expect to be taken off of the earth to avoid that? That makes no sense.

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

#2 I TOLD you. Dan 9:27 which connects to Rev 12 as well as Daniel 12: 11-12 which speaks of 7 years plus an extra 75 days- the reason for the extra 75 days is not well understood however

How does Daniel 9:27 connect to Revelation 12? There is no indication of that whatsoever.

#5 Dan 9: 27 cuts that one week off because it was a future prophecy. Daniel 9:27 Commentary | Precept Austin

Based on what? There is no basis for adding a gap between any of the 70 weeks.
https://www.preceptaustin.org/daniel_927#9:27

#8 Once again ALREADY ANSWERED. The temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices reinstated. The a/c will allow it for a short time but them stop them all halfway thru the Trib

What temple will be rebuilt and where is the scripture that talks about this? Why would animal sacrifices be reinstated when we know that Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice that established the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices obsolete (Heb 8:6-13, 10:-12)?

Do you have any clear scripture that you base your doctrine on? Seems that it's based only on assumptions and on trying to relate unrelated passages.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is an oft used straw man. I think the rapture will be pre-trib, and I understand fully that my life will have tribulation in it, and who knows to what degree?

But at the same time, tribulations that are in the world right now are not being experienced by my mother, who passed away years ago. She likewise knew tribulation in her life, but she will not experience the Great Tribulation, she just won't be here. Not all who have lived will experience the tribulation of the end of the age, so many have already gone by now, with more that will by gone by then. Gone by death, gone by rapture, there is no difference.

Isaiah 57:1-2 KJV
1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2) He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

Much love!

What do you believe "the Great Tribulation" is exactly and what does it entail?

 

[WPM]

#1 Ok I just told you. But if you want more detail look to Revelation 12 (another Rapture prophecy) where it mentions 3-1/2 years twice. Yes Rev 12 is in part a Rapture prophecy (its not Mary as Catholics believe as she was not taken into the wilderness for 3-1/2 years. Joseph ad Mary would never have gone into the harsh unforgiving desert but they went to one of the cities along the Nile, most likely Alexandretta, where there was a large Jewish presence). Rev 12 speaks of the woman- in part Israel and in part the church. The manchild is Christ in the church which is caught up to heaven to be kept safe from Satan.

That is long fulfilled. Revelation 12:5, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to poimaino [or shepherd] all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

We should note in passing, John not only describing the incarnation in Revelation 12:5 but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven and His kingly sovereign reign where He providentially shepherds the nations of the world. The focus of this shepherdly text is the way that Christ deals with the nations. Here the Holy Spirit also uses another shepherdly term – a rod – to describe the protection for the Church. Solemnly for the wicked the rod is a ‘rod of iron’ denoting how ferociously Christ deals with the wicked.

#2 I TOLD you. Dan 9:27 which connects to Rev 12 as well as Daniel 12: 11-12 which speaks of 7 years plus an extra 75 days- the reason for the extra 75 days is not well understood however

There is no mention of a 7-yr trib here. You force it into the text.

#3-4 Good golly do you not know how to read? I already said they werent there.

Exactly! This does not teach what you claim it does. Your teachers have misled you. You are therefore manipulating the Book to fit your error. There is no contextual reason to propel this to a time at the end relating to the coming of Christ and the rescue of His saints. This makes no mention of that!

#5 Dan 9: 27 cuts that one week off because it was a future prophecy. Daniel 9:27 Commentary | Precept Austin

No it does not. Pretribs do that. This is an unprecedented butchering of a harmonious prophecy. Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

The reality is: ancient calendars never had gaps.

The whole Pretrib reasoning on this key passage is fanciful, nonsensical and illogical. I suspect they know that, thus their careful and consistent avoidance of it.

#6 Dan 9:27.

Where? There is no mention. Quote it!

#7. Again do learn how to pay attention...do I really need to answer this a third time?

You have yet to do that. You have swallowed a lie and are incapable of showing it in the sacred text. Where is it? Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?

#8 Once again ALREADY ANSWERED. The temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices reinstated. The a/c will allow it for a short time but them stop them all halfway thru the Trib

Not true! Where is it in Daniel 9 or in the NT? The desolation of the temple lasts till the coming of Christ, the consummation (which you reject as the consummation).

#9. They arent in Dan 9 but in Dan 11:34

They are not there.

#11 Ezekiel 41 2 Thess 2:7, and Rev 11

Quote it! You quote references like Van Imp that have no relationship to the issue in front of us.

 

[ChristinaL]

Show me any scripture which says we need to be taken off of the earth in order to be kept safe from Satan. You won't find it. You are directly contradicting what Jesus prayed for.

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Jesus prayed to the Father that He would not take His people out of the world, but would instead protect us from Satan while we're here. Many Chrisitians have been persecuted for almost 2,000 years but you expect to be taken off of the earth to avoid that? That makes no sense.

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,


How does Daniel 9:27 connect to Revelation 12? There is no indication of that whatsoever.


Based on what? There is no basis for adding a gap between any of the 70 weeks.
Daniel 9:27 Commentary | Precept Austin

What temple will be rebuilt and where is the scripture that talks about this? Why would animal sacrifices be reinstated when we know that Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice that established the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices obsolete (Heb 8:6-13, 10:-12)?

Do you have any clear scripture that you base your doctrine on? Seems that it's based only on assumptions and on trying to relate unrelated passages.

You have to learn proper context here. John 17:15 is not speaking of the end times. The immediate subject here also was His apostles not all of us. Yes we all face persecution and death but it hasnt been under the rule of Satan incarnate.

The Tribulation hour was not meant for the Bride....its judgment for the unbeliever and a last call for the remaining elect. The church isnt even mentioned at all past Rev 4 and the Tribulation saints are not part of the Bride.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"keep thee from"- kept out of. Not preserved through.

Also note the 144000 believers who are raised up from the 12 tribes to evangelize the world- a completely pointless exercise if the church was still here.

2 Thess 2:7-8
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

"he who now letteth" is the Holy Ghost which resides within the church and the Holy Ghost/Church must be taken out of the way before the antichrist appears. Its not as if the HG will not be present at all during the Trib but it will be as it was in Jesus' day when the HG was present among believers but not within them.


I explained Dan 9:27 perfectly well.

The other 69 weeks have already taken place - the last week is the time of the end.

I already showed you where the temple will be rebuilt- some of those passages also mention animal sacrifice. Yes Jesus is THE one and only sacrifice but the unbelieving Jews dont yet know that. The temple will be rebuilt due to their unbelief and because they believe they are still bound by Mosaic sacrificial law they will resume animal sacrifices until they turn and accept Jesus as their Lord and Messiah

I have showed you clear scripture. You need to open your eyes. Look this stuff up yourself. I long ago had a mentor who said to me that when you have questions that are easily answered with the abundant resources that we have in the Strongs Concordance or online, well he told me in no uncertain terms to get off my fat lazy butt and look it up myself- and come to him with really difficult questions. Well I am telling you the same thing

 

[marks]

"keep thee from"- kept out of. Not preserved through.

Kept out of the hour of testing . . . not just kept out of the testing, but out of the time in which it occurs. And there is only one way to accomplish that, it is to remove them from the space/time continuum. And away they fly!

Much love!

 

[ChristinaL]

That is long fulfilled. Revelation 12:5, “And she brought forth a man child, who was to poimaino [or shepherd] all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

We should note in passing, John not only describing the incarnation in Revelation 12:5 but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven and His kingly sovereign reign where He providentially shepherds the nations of the world. The focus of this shepherdly text is the way that Christ deals with the nations. Here the Holy Spirit also uses another shepherdly term – a rod – to describe the protection for the Church. Solemnly for the wicked the rod is a ‘rod of iron’ denoting how ferociously Christ deals with the wicked.



There is no mention of a 7-yr trib here. You force it into the text.



Exactly! This does not teach what you claim it does. Your teachers have misled you. You are therefore manipulating the Book to fit your error. There is no contextual reason to propel this to a time at the end relating to the coming of Christ and the rescue of His saints. This makes no mention of that!



No it does not. Pretribs do that. This is an unprecedented butchering of a harmonious prophecy. Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

The reality is: ancient calendars never had gaps.

The whole Pretrib reasoning on this key passage is fanciful, nonsensical and illogical. I suspect they know that, thus their careful and consistent avoidance of it.



Where? There is no mention. Quote it!



You have yet to do that. You have swallowed a lie and are incapable of showing it in the sacred text. Where is it? Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?



Not true! Where is it in Daniel 9 or in the NT? The desolation of the temple lasts till the coming of Christ, the consummation (which you reject as the consummation).



They are not there.



Quote it! You quote references like Van Imp that have no relationship to the issue in front of us.

Rev 12:5 is only partially fulfilled. It is Israel only in part. It is in part the Church. I do not force the 3-1/2 years, twice mentioned into the text

I have explained everything you need to know with regards to Dan 9. NOT my fault you have been blinded and refuse to see. As long as you continue robotically repeating things when I and likely others have explained them 6 ways from Sunday there is no point in talking to a wall now is there?

 

[WPM]

You have to learn proper context here. John 17:15 is not speaking of the end times. The immediate subject here also was His apostles not all of us. Yes we all face persecution and death but it hasnt been under the rule of Satan incarnate.

The Tribulation hour was not meant for the Bride....its judgment for the unbeliever and a last call for the remaining elect. The church isnt even mentioned at all past Rev 4 and the Tribulation saints are not part of the Bride.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"keep thee from"- kept out of. Not preserved through.

Typical Pretrib eisegesis. This is not even a rapture passage.

• In Daniel 9 there is no mention of the Church, a future rapture, tribulation, 7-year tribulation, antichrist, or a 3rd coming. That is all a Pretrib invention.
• In 1 Thessalonians 4 there is a future catching away (rapture), but no 7 years tribulation (or tribulation of any length or type following) and there is no 3rd coming.
• Revelation 3:10 is also claimed by Pretribbers. But, where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

 

[WPM]

NOT my fault you have been blinded and refuse to see. As long as you continue robotically repeating things when I and likely others have explained them 6 ways from Sunday there is no point in talking to a wall now is there?

Wow! Refuse to see what? Your Jesuit Pretrib doctrine.

This is only your 5th post and you are defaulting to the typical vicious Pretrib response when your error is refuted.

 

[ChristinaL]

Typical Pretrib eisegesis. This is not even a rapture passage.

• In Daniel 9 there is no mention of the Church, a future rapture, tribulation, 7-year tribulation, antichrist, or a 3rd coming. That is all a Pretrib invention.
• In 1 Thessalonians 4 there is a future catching away (rapture), but no 7 years tribulation (or tribulation of any length or type following) and there is no 3rd coming.
• Revelation 3:10 is also claimed by Pretribbers. But, where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

AGAIN I TOLD YOU Dan 9 mentions no Rapture - And there is no 3rd coming. The second coming is Jesus returning to this earth. The Rapture is the church going to Him not Him coming to us.

Rev 3:10 is perfectly clear.

You are just wasting my time here. dont bother responding if you are going to keep up this foolishness

 

[WPM]

there is no 3rd coming. The second coming is Jesus returning to this earth. The Rapture is the church going to Him not Him coming to us.

So, the rapture is not the "coming" (parousia) of Christ?

 

[WPM]

Rev 3:10 is perfectly clear.

So, what was the reward that the Church at Philadelphia experienced (that was obviously unique to them and different from the other 6 churches)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have to learn proper context here.

I don't need a lesson about context from someone who believes in pre-trib, that's for sure. Pre-tribs take scripture out of context constantly.

John 17:15 is not speaking of the end times. The immediate subject here also was His apostles not all of us. Yes we all face persecution and death but it hasnt been under the rule of Satan incarnate.

That doesn't matter. The concept is the same for us. We don't need to be taken off of the earth in order to be protected from evil and from trials. That is a fact.

The Tribulation hour was not meant for the Bride....its judgment for the unbeliever and a last call for the remaining elect. The church isnt even mentioned at all past Rev 4 and the Tribulation saints are not part of the Bride.

Of all the many false things that pre-tribs believe, this might be the most ridiculous one. The church is mentioned several times after Revelation 4!

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Here, we see a description of all the souls who in the past (the past before the fifth seal) were killed for their faith and it talks about them waiting for the Lord's vengeance for a little longer until "until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.". The ones who had not yet been killed are in the church. People in the church have been persecuted and killed for almost 2,000 years now, so there's no reason whatsoever to think that will ever stop happening until Christ returns and takes vengeance on His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10).

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Surely, "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" are in the church. That is a description of those who are in the church.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who else but "the saints" are in the church? NT scripture describes those in the church as saints.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then there's the following verse that also refers to the church:

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” "Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

Surely, "the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" are those who are in the church.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"keep thee from"- kept out of. Not preserved through.

Wrong. In John 17:15 the very same Greek words translated as "keep...from" (tereo and ek) mean to be protected from evil, not to be taken away from it. You are trying to make scripture say what you want it to say just as you do by falsely claiming that the church isn't referenced after Revelation 4.

Also note the 144000 believers who are raised up from the 12 tribes to evangelize the world- a completely pointless exercise if the church was still here.

Where does it say that they were raised up to evangelize the world? You keep making things up that aren't there just like you do with Daniel 9.

2 Thess 2:7-8
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

"he who now letteth" is the Holy Ghost which resides within the church and the Holy Ghost/Church must be taken out of the way before the antichrist appears. Its not as if the HG will not be present at all during the Trib but it will be as it was in Jesus' day when the HG was present among believers but not within them.

You need to ask God for wisdom about this and study this for yourself instead of just letting your teachers tell you what to believe. God is perfectly capable of removing the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit without needing to take the church out of the world. Paul said that a mass falling away from the faith has to occur first before His coming and our being gathered to Him (2 Thess 2:3), so the result of the mass falling away from the faith dramatically reduces the impact of the gospel and of Christianity in the world. There is no need for the church to be removed in order for that to happen.

I explained Dan 9:27 perfectly well.

No, you absolutely did not. You relate things to that verse that are not even remotely mentioned there.

The other 69 weeks have already taken place - the last week is the time of the end.

No, it is not. There is absolutely no basis whatsoever for inserting a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. It says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week which places His death within the 70th week. That is when He confirmed the new covenant by way of His ministry, His death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel first to Israel (Acts 1:8). The establishment of the new covenant resulted in the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offering being made obsolete. That is what Daniel 9:27 is about.

I already showed you where the temple will be rebuilt- some of those passages also mention animal sacrifice. Yes Jesus is THE one and only sacrifice but the unbelieving Jews dont yet know that.

There are some believing Jews who know and acknowledge that. Unbelieving Jews reject that and have no excuse for that. It's not as if they have not heard about Jesus.

The temple will be rebuilt due to their unbelief and because they believe they are still bound by Mosaic sacrificial law they will resume animal sacrifices until they turn and accept Jesus as their Lord and Messiah

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. You think this supposed temple is called "the temple of God" in scripture, right? How can it be called the temple of God if it's built by Christ rejecting Jews? Surely, God Himself would not consider such a temple to be His temple and one that is worthy of being called the temple of God.

I have showed you clear scripture.

LOL. You have not even come close to clearly showing how your beliefs are taught in scripture. You attribute all kinds of things to Daniel 9 that are not referenced there at all. That's clear scripture to support your view? Not at all.

You need to open your eyes. Look this stuff up yourself.

LOL. That's rich coming from you since you obviously have not studied this carefully for yourself and have bought in to all the standard things that pre-trib dispensationalism teaches.

I long ago had a mentor who said to me that when you have questions that are easily answered with the abundant resources that we have in the Strongs Concordance or online, well he told me in no uncertain terms to get off my fat lazy butt and look it up myself- and come to him with really difficult questions. Well I am telling you the same thing

If you studied this for yourself, then why are you just repeating the same exact things that your doctrine teaches that I've heard for a long time already? I don't see anything from you that deviates at all from the standard pre-trib dispenationalist party line.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 12:5 is only partially fulfilled. It is Israel only in part.

What are you talking about? That verse refers to the birth of Christ and His ascension. You apparently didn't even read the verse.

It is in part the Church. I do not force the 3-1/2 years, twice mentioned into the text

I have explained everything you need to know with regards to Dan 9. NOT my fault you have been blinded and refuse to see. As long as you continue robotically repeating things when I and likely others have explained them 6 ways from Sunday there is no point in talking to a wall now is there?

You are not able to make a coherent, convincing argument to support your view and that's our fault? Unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

AGAIN I TOLD YOU Dan 9 mentions no Rapture - And there is no 3rd coming. The second coming is Jesus returning to this earth. The Rapture is the church going to Him not Him coming to us.

Rev 3:10 is perfectly clear.

You are just wasting my time here. dont bother responding if you are going to keep up this foolishness

Revelation 3:10 is perfectly clear, as is John 17:15, that we don't need to be taken off of the earth in order to be protected from evil and to endure trials and tribulations. Many Christians from the past almost 2,000 years have proven that to be true.

You are basically saying that it's a waste of your time to have to actually defend your doctrine. Why are you even here then? You can't come here and expect your views to not be challenged if someone disagrees with them. That's not how this works.

 

[WPM]

The church isnt even mentioned at all past Rev 4 and the Tribulation saints are not part of the Bride.

So, what does that mean?