It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

What third coming to walk upon the face of the earth ?

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

It is pretty obvious why you are ducking around these basic questions. They expose your whole theology. That is because it is built upon sand. For you to acknowledge that the rapture is the second coming (parousia) of Christ totally negates everything you have been taught. Also, while you deem your invented Pretrib rapture the "day of the Lord" you have no title for your 3rd coming (apart from your extra-biblical invented "Second Advent").

 

[Douggg]

It is pretty obvious why you are ducking around these basic questions. They expose your whole theology. That is because it is built upon sand. For you to acknowledge that the rapture is the second coming (parousia) of Christ totally negates everything you have been taught. Also, while you deem your invented Pretrib rapture the "day of the Lord" you have no title for your 3rd coming (apart from your extra-biblical invented "Second Advent").

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

Now if you want to know more about Jesus's 2nd coming to walk upon the face of the earth, read Ezekiel 39:21-29.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Also in that group of verses is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:2-6, the gathering of the Jews to the land of Israel.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

[WPM]

What third coming to walk upon the face of the earth ?

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Is this a rapture passage?

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or restraineth) will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’ [Gr. ek mesos]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Is this a rapture passage?

 

[TribulationSigns]

What third coming to walk upon the face of the earth ?

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Amen.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

Ahem. No Christ will come to the AIR to bring and meet with his Saints. Christ will not physically coming down and touch down upon Mount of Olives in Jersualem. Zechariah 14 was fulfilled on the first coming.

 

[Douggg]

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Is this a rapture passage?

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or restraineth) will let, until he be taken ‘out of the way’ [Gr. ek mesos]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Is this a rapture passage?

1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection.

2Thessaonians2:1 verse is a referral to the rapture.

If you go here, you can copy and paste from the kjv with the verses numbered, unlike the source you are copying and pasting from.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-Chapter-5/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you really think that there are three comings of Jesus to walk upon the face of the earth ? There are only two.

The verses in Zechariah 14, that follow Jesus's 2nd coming to walk upon the face of the earth proves the Amil view to be wrong.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[WPM]

1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection.

2Thessaonians2:1 verse is a referral to the rapture.

If you go here, you can copy and paste from the kjv with the verses numbered, unlike the source you are copying and pasting from.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-Chapter-5/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you really think that there are three comings of Jesus to walk upon the face of the earth ? There are only two.

The verses in Zechariah 14, that follow Jesus's 2nd coming to walk upon the face of the earth proves the Amil view to be wrong.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Please read the inspired text above. Open your eyes. These passages are second coming passages. They describe Christ's return as the parousia. You deny that. You ignore that. You have to. They totally expose your reasoning.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage?

 

[Douggg]

Please read the inspired text above. Open your eyes. These passages are second coming passages. They describe Christ's return as the parousia. You deny that. You ignore that. You have to. They totally expose your reasoning.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage?

Matthew 24:35-42 describes the conditions when the rapture/resurrection event will take place.

Obviously, it will not be at a time when the world is going through the great tribulation - thus, eliminating the post-trib view that you hold.

The rapture/resurrection event could take place today. But it has to take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, when peace will be taken from the earth.

I show the ToD act on this chart. The chart covers day1 to day 2520 of the 7 year 70th week.

 

[WPM]

Matthew 24:35-42 describes the conditions when the rapture/resurrection event will take place.

Obviously, it will not be at a time when the world is going through the great tribulation - thus, eliminating the post-trib view that you hold.

The rapture/resurrection event could take place today. But it has to take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, when peace will be taken from the earth.

I show the ToD act on this chart. The chart covers day1 to day 2520 of the 7 year 70th week.

Stop avoiding.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage?

 

[Douggg]

Stop avoiding.

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

Is this a rapture passage?

You can't read ? I wrote...

Matthew 24:35-42 describes the conditions when the rapture/resurrection event will take place.

Obviously, it will not be at a time when the world is going through the great tribulation - thus, eliminating the post-trib view that you hold.

 

[WPM]

1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection.

2Thessaonians2:1 verse is a referral to the rapture.

Matthew 24:35-42 describes the conditions when the rapture/resurrection event will take place.

These 3 passages all refer to Christ's parousia exposing your fallacy that the gathering of the saints is not the second coming. Your reasoning is extra-biblical.

 

[Douggg]

These 3 passages all refer to Christ's parousia exposing your fallacy that the gathering of the saints is not the second coming. Your reasoning is extra-biblical.

WPM, Matthew 24:35-42 describes the conditions of the world at the time the rapture/resurrection will take place.

Those conditions are that there will be marrying and giving in marriage going on. Eating and drinking as normal. Just was it was in the days right before the flood. People will be working as normal, such as the two persons working in the field, and two women grinding at the mill.

Those conditions eliminate the rapture/resurrection taking place when the world is in great tribulation. Thus, eliminating the post-trib view you hold that claims the rapture/resurrection event takes place at the end of great tribulation.

Verse 42 is Jesus's instructions to watch...
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The same as in Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The rapture/resurrection event will be the escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 14:14 is after the Saints go through the GT being put to death.

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

All saints who go through the GT will be put to death except for those whom the LORD reserves for His Second Coming.

SAME as Matthew chapter 24
SAME as 1 Thessalonians
SAME as 2 Thessalonians
SAME as 1 John
SAME as Hebrews 9:28
SAME as LOT
SAME as ELIJAH
SAME as SHADRACH , MESHACK , ABEDNEGO
SAME as NOAH
SAME as DANIEL
SAME as JOB
SAME as JAMES ch5

There is One WAY, One TRUTH , One LIFE , One Second Coming , One Resurrection , One Rapture AFTER the Resurrection
ONE Gathering of Jew and Gentile in CHRIST , One SPIRIT , One LORD , One BODY = One NEW MAN

Even when I post the reference, you claim Jesus sitting on a holding a sickle, and commanded By Angels to harvest the Earth , is actually not Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle, and told to harvest the Earth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

WPM, Matthew 24:35-42 describes the conditions of the world at the time the rapture/resurrection will take place.

Those conditions are that there will be marrying and giving in marriage going on. Eating and drinking as normal. Just was it was in the days right before the flood. People will be working as normal, such as the two persons working in the field, and two women grinding at the mill.

Those conditions eliminate the rapture/resurrection taking place when the world is in great tribulation. Thus, eliminating the post-trib view you hold that claims the rapture/resurrection event takes place at the end of great tribulation.

Verse 42 is Jesus's instructions to watch...
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The same as in Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The rapture/resurrection event will be the escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

Somebody has a bible and reads what it says.
You must be a pretribber.

 

[rebuilder 454]

How so???

Please explain

In Acts chapter 1 we see Jesus ascending into heaven with the angels declaring to the disciples that "this same Jesus shall return in like manner."
That is not on horses, millions of them, blackening the sky, with a warrior king leading them into battle.
Revelation 14 and verse 14, has Jesus with a sickle sitting on a cloud, and angels telling him to go and gather the vine of the Earth. That is a coming of Jesus ,after the main rapture of 1 thes 4, and Gathering the Jewish people.
We see in Matthew 24:38 Jesus talking, and declares that his coming to gather one and leave one behind, is in a setting of normal life, and before the destruction of Sodom and before the Flood. Obviously all 3 examples are not anywhere near the white horses, and after the gt.

 

[David in NJ]

Even when I post the reference, you claim Jesus sitting on a holding a sickle, and commanded By Angels to harvest the Earth , is actually not Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle, and told to harvest the Earth.

If i came across that way, as that is not my intention.

Revelation has many revelations in it of the Second Coming.

The IMPORTANT Truth in Rev ch14 is that there is NO SUCH THING as pre-trib rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

Somebody has a bible and reads what it says.
You must be a pretribber.

You, @Douggg and the other pre-tribbers are pre-fibbers BECAUSE the SAVIOR whom we are to follow is a POST-TRIBBER.

JESUS says: I am the WAY, the Truth and the LIFE = Take up your cross and follow ME.

The WAY that JESUS leads us is HE walks us THROUGH Tribulations all the WAY, so that we can be LIKE HIM = Overcomers

SEE - I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

 

[David in NJ]

@Douggg @rebuilder 454 @MA2444 @The Light @marks

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth,
a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

 

[Douggg]

Somebody has a bible and reads what it says.
You must be a pretribber.

I definitely believe that the rapture could take place before the 7 year 70th week begins. Perhaps even today.

...but not necessarily. The rapture could take place anytime between right now and the day when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4, which will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The rapture has to happen before then according 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

I am definitely though pre-trib friendly, and will always defend the possibility that the rapture could happen pre-70th week. And we are to be watching for it.

From the Pre-Trib Research Center, Dr. Thomas Ice, makes it clear that pre-trib rapture means pre-70th week of Daniel in this quote below from that site.

"The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy."

Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

www.pre-trib.org

----------------------------------------------------

My view of the timing of the rapture/resurrection event, I call the Anytime Rapture View. Below is a chart I made of my view. And below it a chart I made of the Pre-trib Rapture View for comparison.

 

[David in NJ]

In Acts chapter 1 we see Jesus ascending into heaven with the angels declaring to the disciples that "this same Jesus shall return in like manner."
That is not on horses, millions of them, blackening the sky, with a warrior king leading them into battle.
Revelation 14 and verse 14, has Jesus with a sickle sitting on a cloud, and angels telling him to go and gather the vine of the Earth. That is a coming of Jesus ,after the main rapture of 1 thes 4, and Gathering the Jewish people.
We see in Matthew 24:38 Jesus talking, and declares that his coming to gather one and leave one behind, is in a setting of normal life, and before the destruction of Sodom and before the Flood. Obviously all 3 examples are not anywhere near the white horses, and after the gt.

Who are we to tell God and demand from Him that HE did not include the white horses from Rev ch19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who are we to DARE add to God's words what HE never said = pre-trib rapture

JESUS says to us - "Take up your cross and follow ME"

The Word that was God in the beginning came down to earth = the Word became flesh

HE did this for us and HE endured the GREATEST TRIBULATION a SINLESS Man could ever experience.

Do you know what that was???

HE who knew No sin became SIN for us and went to the CROSS for us.

 

[MA2444]

Who are we to tell God and demand from Him that HE did not include the white horses from Rev ch19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who are we to DARE add to God's words what HE never said = pre-trib rapture

JESUS says to us - "Take up your cross and follow ME"

The Word that was God in the beginning came down to earth = the Word became flesh

HE did this for us and HE endured the GREATEST TRIBULATION a SINLESS Man could ever experience.

Do you know what that was???

HE who knew No sin became SIN for us and went to the CROSS for us.

I agree with you on everything you said here except that line about He never said pre trib rapture.

I prayed about this very thing. Lord how am I supposed to warn people to be ready for the rapture if all they say is, You didnt say it outright pre trib rapture so it aint true?
He said the truth is all there even if I didnt say pre trib rapture. There's nothing in scripture about cell phones, computers or televisions so maybe they dont believe in them also?

That aint an exact quote that was paraphrased a little but He said this to me. And I have the peace of God in my spirit on this issue. You dont have to believe me, but I know it. And whenever something is true you will have supernatural peace in your spirit and know that it is true. Paul talks about it.

Phillippians 4:
4 Always be full of joy in the Lord. I say it again—rejoice!
5 Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do. Remember, the Lord is coming soon.[c]
6 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done.
7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus..../NLT