It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's a simple question, and very telling that you cannot answer it.

Much love!

I have many simple questions that I know you can't answer, so are you sure you want to go there?

 

[WPM]

It's a simple question, and very telling that you cannot answer it.

Much love!

I did answer it. He chose to ignore it.

 

[Douggg]

That's not possible because Paul said in 2 Thess 2:3 that a falling away and revealing of the man of sin have to happen first before Jesus's coming when we are gathered to meet Him "in the air" or in "the vicinity of the earth" as you called it.

Your post-trib rapture/resurrection timing is incorrect. You have incorrectly interpreted the gathering of the elect in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 as being the rapture.

But Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 gathering is done by angels - as opposed to the rapture/resurrection event by Jesus's voice to raise the dead in Christ and change the living in Christ.

Instead of being the rapture, the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 gathering of the elect will be the fulfillment of the Deuteronomy 30:2-6 and Ezekiel 39:28 gathering of the Jews to Israel, which no Jews will be left in the nations as they gathered to the land of Israel.

I had asked you...

Who is speaking in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 ?
Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

The answer to both question is Jesus.

In Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The Jews presently do not believe that Jesus is the LORD their God. That will change in the middle of the seven years of Ezekiel 39:9, that take place right after the Gog/Magog event. And in Revelation 12:10, as the seed of the woman, Israel, the Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

So the point of your argument that Deuteronomy 30:2-6 applies to some Jews, and not all Jews, is proven wrong by Ezekiel 39:28. And the fact that Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is yet to be fulfilled, as there are still Jews in the nations all around the world - invalidates the Amil belief of no thousand years of Jesus's rule on this earth following His return.

Condescending remarks and ridicule, and attempts to change the focus - from when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be fulled - is not adequate to keep the Amil view afloat.

 

[WPM]

Your post-trib rapture/resurrection timing is incorrect. You have incorrectly interpreted the gathering of the elect in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 as being the rapture.

But Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 gathering is done by angels - as opposed to the rapture/resurrection event by Jesus's voice to raise the dead in Christ and change the living in Christ.

Instead of being the rapture, the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 gathering of the elect will be the fulfillment of the Deuteronomy 30:2-6 and Ezekiel 39:28 gathering of the Jews to Israel, which no Jews will be left in the nations as they gathered to the land of Israel.

I had asked you...

Who is speaking in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 ?
Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

The answer to both question is Jesus.

In Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The Jews presently do not believe that Jesus is the LORD their God. That will change in the middle of the seven years of Ezekiel 39:9, that take place right after the Gog/Magog event. And in Revelation 12:10, as the seed of the woman, Israel, the Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

So the point of your argument that Deuteronomy 30:2-6 applies to some Jews, and not all Jews, is proven wrong by Ezekiel 39:28. And the fact that Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is yet to be fulfilled, as there are still Jews in the nations all around the world - invalidates the Amil belief of no thousand years of Jesus's rule on this earth following His return.

Condescending remarks and ridicule, and attempts to change the focus - from when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be fulled - is not adequate to keep the Amil view afloat.

So, in your estimation, is Jesus coming to rapture His Church a "coming" (or parousia) of Christ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your post-trib rapture/resurrection timing is incorrect. You have incorrectly interpreted the gathering of the elect in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 as being the rapture.

But Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 gathering is done by angels - as opposed to the rapture/resurrection event by Jesus's voice to raise the dead in Christ and change the living in Christ.

Oh, brother... You need to re-read your Scripture first:

1Co 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15-17
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:30-31
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26-27
(26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
(27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

All the above verses are talking about the Christ's Second Coming with a shout (his own voice - not angel - for he is the chief messenger) and a trump of God for he is God himself! He will bring the souls of the "dead in christ" with him down to the air where the alive and remaining of the Saints on Earth will be gathered to meet with them in the air. All will happen at the Second Coming. THere will no time left for a so-called 7 years tribulation or 1,000 kingdom fantasy in the future.

Instead of being the rapture, the Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 gathering of the elect will be the fulfillment of the Deuteronomy 30:2-6 and Ezekiel 39:28 gathering of the Jews to Israel, which no Jews will be left in the nations as they gathered to the land of Israel.

Incorrect. The Saints are all Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, to be gathered to the AIR - not to the land of Israel on this cursed Earth. Silly you.

Who is speaking in Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 ?

Jesus

Who is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 ?

Jesus. So...?

In Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

You need to understand that Christ was the savior of ALL the saints. For example, that Abel had part in the first resurrection just as surely as Peter, Paul, or me did. ow you can equate some saints appearing in Jerusalem, to God declaring that the four messengers must hold off Judgment until He has sealed all the physical tribes of Israel, is amazing. It is a giant leap going from Revelation 7 of the Spirit going forth to seal all Israel (which takes time) to the resurrection of a few saints at Christ's death illustrating they are risen in Him also. In your quest to find Biblical justification for the separation of physical Israel from Gentile Israel, I believe you are really "reaching" now.

Ezekiel 37:21-22

• "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
• And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:"

God is talking about ONE CONGREGATION ISRAEL, nation making up of both Jews and Gentiles, upon God's Holy Mountain. Not on a pile of dirt in the Middle East. There will not be two nations or two kingdoms here!

The Jews presently do not believe that Jesus is the LORD their God. That will change in the middle of the seven years of Ezekiel 39:9, that take place right after the Gog/Magog event. And in Revelation 12:10, as the seed of the woman, Israel, the Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

Dispensationalism garbage. You got wrong Gog and Magog. Wrong Woman. Wrong Nation.

So the point of your argument that Deuteronomy 30:2-6 applies to some Jews, and not all Jews, is proven wrong by Ezekiel 39:28. And the fact that Deuteronomy 30:2-6 is yet to be fulfilled, as there are still Jews in the nations all around the world - invalidates the Amil belief of no thousand years of Jesus's rule on this earth following His return.

Nope, The national representative has been taken from the Jews at the Cross and given to Gentile Church that produces fruits. After all fruits have been produced, the testimony of the Church is FINISHED. No such thing as 7 years tribulation or 1,000 years millennial kingdom in the future.

 

[Douggg]

So, in your estimation, is Jesus coming to rapture His Church a "coming" (or parousia) of Christ?

I answered that question before in my post #1424.....

"Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection event does not coincide with His return to stand on the Mt. Olives."

And I explained again the timing of the rapture/resurrection event in my post #1427....

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.


Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Could happen anytime between now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in 2Thessalonians2:4.

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Condescending remarks and ridicule, and attempts to change the focus - from when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be fulled - is not adequate to keep the Amil view afloat.

You are attempting to change the focus - from when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be fulled - in an attempt to keep Amil afloat. It will not work.

 

[WPM]

I answered that question before in my post #1424.....

"Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection event does not coincide with His return to stand on the Mt. Olives."

And I explained again the timing of the rapture/resurrection event in my post #1427....

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.


Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Could happen anytime between now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in 2Thessalonians2:4.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Condescending remarks and ridicule, and attempts to change the focus - from when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be fulled - is not adequate to keep the Amil view afloat.

You are attempting to change the focus - from when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will be fulled - in an attempt to keep Amil afloat. It will not work.

So, the rapture is a coming?

What name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Love that desire to see people SAVED and Live in Christ

If that is your true desire = drop the man-made ERROR of reversing scripture which is the method of deception from the Serpent.

Second Coming = Resurrection is FIRST = ALWAYS in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation
After the Resurrection of the "dead in Christ"
comes the Rapture of 'alive and remaining saints' = 1 Thessalonians & 2 Thessalonians and 1 John

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

@Taken @marks @MA2444 @rebuilder 454 @Biblepaige

the LORD Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life

JESUS is the Way = Post-Tribber

JESUS says to all of us who Trust = "Take up your cross and follow me" = Post-Trib

Jesus is the truth.
Jesus vividly declared 3 comings.
No way to wiggle out of that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. Yes, I love how you think it's okay for him to not address our points while we are expected to address all of his in great detail. That's really fair, isn't it. No bias there on your part. Yes, it's such poor behavior to expect him to address our points as well. How terrible.

Maybe you can show where Deut 30:2-6 says something about the elect being gathered both from the uttermost part of the earth and the uttermost part of heaven as Mark 13:27 says? Douggg surely is not able to do so.

Uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.

 

[MA2444]

LOL. Yes, I love how you think it's okay for him to not address our points while we are expected to address all of his in great detail. That's really fair, isn't it. No bias there on your part. Yes, it's such poor behavior to expect him to address our points as well. How terrible.

Sometimes you sound exactly like him. Are you the same person with two (three lol) accounts? Love it how you stick up for him! He couldnt have said it better him self, lol.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus is the truth.
Jesus vividly declared 3 comings.
No way to wiggle out of that.

Good Morning @rebuilder 454 , @MA2444

Please
Please
Please
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Thank You
Thank You
Thank You

@MA2444 yesterday is GONE, down the road = let us regroup in Our Savior Redeemer and Lord TODAY while we Hear His Voice

We are mature enough in Him who called us out of darkness and into His LIGHT
i will be the first to say, forgive me when i said things that hurt you

Verse of the Day​ September 28 1 Peter 4:8​ 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.​

PS to @rebuilder 454 = JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = 100% Postribber = Resurrection AFTER Great Tribulation

 

[Douggg]

So, the rapture is a coming?

What name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

I have already responding to the three comings of Jesus in my post 1427 and 1446. My response is not going to change.

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Could happen anytime between now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in 2Thessalonians2:4.

 

[MA2444]

Good Morning @rebuilder 454 , @MA2444

Please
Please
Please
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Thank You
Thank You
Thank You

@MA2444 yesterday is GONE, down the road = let us regroup in Our Savior Redeemer and Lord TODAY while we Hear His Voice

We are mature enough in Him who called us out of darkness and into His LIGHT
i will be the first to say, forgive me when i said things that hurt you

​

​ ​ ​ Verse of the Day​ September 28 ​ 1 Peter 4:8​ 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.​

PS to @rebuilder 454 = JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = 100% Postribber = Resurrection AFTER Great Tribulation

Aahhh #3 right on time. Are you guys playing good cop/bad cop?

 

[David in NJ]

Aahhh #3 right on time. Are you guys playing good cop/bad cop?

Love it

As for me, absolutely not for i feel at a loss after we had a Blessed Good start together.
i've been praying for everyone as well as confessing to the LORD any behavior of mine that was not necessarily 'good'.
and been telling the LORD had bad you guys are...........just kidding

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good Morning @rebuilder 454 , @MA2444

Please
Please
Please
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Show each separate Coming of the Lord
Thank You
Thank You
Thank You

@MA2444 yesterday is GONE, down the road = let us regroup in Our Savior Redeemer and Lord TODAY while we Hear His Voice

We are mature enough in Him who called us out of darkness and into His LIGHT
i will be the first to say, forgive me when i said things that hurt you

Verse of the Day​ September 28 1 Peter 4:8​ 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.​

PS to @rebuilder 454 = JESUS is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = 100% Postribber = Resurrection AFTER Great Tribulation

Rev 14: 14 you are shown about 15 times.
Mat 24:38 again and again for 100 times.
None of it sticks.

...and never will

 

[rebuilder 454]

The coming on white horses is not, nor can it possibly be, the rapture.

 

[WPM]

I have already responding to the three comings of Jesus in my post 1427 and 1446. My response is not going to change.

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.

Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Could happen anytime between now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in 2Thessalonians2:4.

So "Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event" is a future coming of Christ? So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

 

[David in NJ]

Rev 14: 14 you are shown about 15 times.
Mat 24:38 again and again for 100 times.
None of it sticks.

...and never will

Revelation 14:14 is after the Saints go through the GT being put to death.

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

All saints who go through the GT will be put to death except for those whom the LORD reserves for His Second Coming.

SAME as Matthew chapter 24
SAME as 1 Thessalonians
SAME as 2 Thessalonians
SAME as 1 John
SAME as Hebrews 9:28
SAME as LOT
SAME as ELIJAH
SAME as SHADRACH , MESHACK , ABEDNEGO
SAME as NOAH
SAME as DANIEL
SAME as JOB
SAME as JAMES ch5

There is One WAY, One TRUTH , One LIFE , One Second Coming , One Resurrection , One Rapture AFTER the Resurrection
ONE Gathering of Jew and Gentile in CHRIST , One SPIRIT , One LORD , One BODY = One NEW MAN

 

[David in NJ]

The coming on white horses is not, nor can it possibly be, the rapture.

How so???

Please explain

 

[Douggg]

So "Jesus coming from the third heaven to the vicinity of the earth will be for the rapture/resurrection event" is a future coming of Christ? So, what name do you have for your 3rd coming before your future millennium? What biblical terms describe that?

What third coming to walk upon the face of the earth ?

Jesus 1st coming was when He entered the world, being born of Mary.

Jesus 2nd coming into the world will be when He returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14.