It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not an insult to call out what you are doing.

The insult is you,doing it.

You are not able to discuss this. The avoidance is yours. Insisting no scriptures offered prove pre tribulation rapture is biblical is dishonest. And an outright lie and avoidance of the truth in those scriptures.

You can't discuss this topic. Repeatedly denying the evidence isn't a discussion.

A discussion about Bible doctrine should include using passages from the Bible to back up your opinions. Which you don't seem to ever do. You apparently think your opinions are the word of God and are on the same level as scripture itself.

 

[WPM]

The scriptual proof that the rapture/resurrection event will be before the great tribulation, when God's wrath will be poured out, is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

Paul has just wrote about the rapture/resurrection event in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, regarding the dead in Christ (i.e. them who sleep) and them alive in Christ (i.e. them who are awake).

And concludng with "18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Same as in verse 11 below.

Now to 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Our salvation to eternal life is completed when our bodies are redeemed - in the rapture/resurrection event, When that event takes place believers will live with Christ forever. Jesus is currently in heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father.

"whether we wake or sleep" is referring to both the dead in Christ and the living in Christ. So it cannot be that believers (just the wake, as the verse is talking about both the dead and the living) enter the great tribulation and are kept safe somehow. It has to be referring to the rapture/resurrection event in verse 10.

Where is your trib mentioned in 1 Thess 4 after the rapture?

 

[Douggg]

Where is your trib mentioned in 1 Thess 4 after the rapture?

The proof text of the timing is before the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

1Thessalonians4;15-18 is text that there will be a rapture/resurrection event.

 

[WPM]

The proof text of the timing is before the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

1Thessalonians4;15-18 is text that there will be a rapture/resurrection event.

Stop avoiding. Where is it in that text?

 

[Douggg]

Now, this is where these discussions get to be frustrating.

For you, I am sure it gets to be frustrating.

You're just giving opinions without supporting them with scripture which is useless and pointless. Prove your view with scripture.

In my posts 1352 and 1353, I used scripture to interpret scripture.

The burden is now on you and @WPM to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-8 will take place. Not only is Mark 13:27 and Matthew 24:31 is when Deuteronomy 30:2-8 will take place, but also is in Ezekiel 39:28.

So, if you agree that Paul was saying in 1 Thess 5:9 that we are not appointed to God's wrath that is described shortly before that in 1 Thess 5:2-3 then our disagreement is NOT that you believe the rapture/resurrection event is before 1 Thess 5:2-3 while I believe it is after. No. We agree on that. Where we disagree is on what 1 Thess 5:2-3 entails. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

First, admit that 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

The further refinement of when the rapture/resurrection event is not only before the great tribulation event takes place, but is in other proof text, as being also before the Day of the Lord begins.

So, please remind me again of how you interpret 1 Thess 5:2-3?

In 1Thessalonians 5:2-3, the world saying "peace and safety" will be because it will be thinking it has entered the messianic age, with the misconception that the Antichrist is the King of Israel messiah.

The sudden destruction that will begin, and God's wrath poured out, is when about 3 years into that false messianic age, the Antichrist (unsuspectingly, timed like a thief in the night) goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4, thus triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

As a result of the Antichrist actions, in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God will have him assassinated. For a short time, the revealed man of sin's soul will be in hell, in Isaiah 14:16-20, before being brought back to life, to be the beast of Revelation.

Of whom, the statue image of the beast will be made and placed on the temple mount, and the great tribulation then begins.
----------------------------------

So it is, false messianic age.

then, transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist - triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord. (the rapture/resurrection event to happen before the beginning of the Day of the Lord)

then, the assassination of the revealed man of sin. And him being brought back to life to become the beast.

then, the statue image of the beast made and placed on the temple mount - triggering the beginning of the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Stop avoiding. Where is it in that text?

The text of 1Thessalons4:15-18 and 1Thesslaonians5:9-11 can be seen in either a hard copy of the King James Bible. Or at this link for the King James bible. Which is where I do my copying and pasting from.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-Chapter-4/

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-Chapter-5/

 

[Douggg]

A quick review of events....in order.

First the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39.

Then, right after it, is the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9. Coinciding with the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Then, the beginning of the false messianic age, the world saying peace and safety, as the Antichrist begins the false messianic age.

Then, about three years later, the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act - triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The rapture/resurrection event to take place anytime between right now and before then.

Then, peace taken from the earth, and the revealed man of sin killed. And shortly brought back to life to become the beast.

Then, the statue image of the beast made and placed on the temple mount - triggering the beginning of the great tribulation.

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Now if we want to put those events to correspond with riders/horses of Revelation 6.

1. the rider on the white horse - the Antichrist, perceived messiah figure. False messianic age begins.

2. the rider on the red horse - peace taken from the earth, after the revealed man commits the transgression of desolation act - triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord..

3. the rider on black horse - after the statue image of the beast made and placed on the temple mount , triggering the beginning of the great tribulation. During which there will be massive food shortages.

4. the rider on the pale horse - the rider's name Death. With people dying during the great tribulation, by war, by hunger, by animals preying on people, resulting in a fourth of the world's population dying.

 

[WPM]

The text of 1Thessalons4:15-18 and 1Thesslaonians5:9-11 can be seen in either a hard copy of the King James Bible. Or at this link for the King James bible. Which is where I do my copying and pasting from.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-Chapter-4/

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-Chapter-5/

Stop avoiding. You know it is not there. It is a figment of your imagination.

 

[Douggg]

Stop avoiding. You know it is not there. It is a figment of your imagination.

1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thesslaonians5:9-11 are in all bible translations.

Perhaps, you should work on your communications. Instead of saying "it", say precisely what you are referring to.

 

[WPM]

1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thesslaonians5:9-11 ares in all bible translations.

Perhaps, you should work on your communications. Instead of saying "it", say precisely what you are referring to.

Where is your 7-yr trib there? Quote it. Give us the reference.

 

[Douggg]

Where is your 7-yr trib there? Quote it. Give us the reference.

Did I write that there was a 7 year tribulation in my posts 1352 and 1353 nor in my post #1367 ? No, I did not.

The rapture/resurrection event will take place - any time before the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

 

[WPM]

Did I write that there was a 7 year tribulation in my posts 1352 and 1353 nor in my post #1367 ? No, I did not.

The rapture/resurrection event will take place - any time before the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.


View attachment 50266

You are ducking around the obvious.

Where is a future tribulation period mentioned in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 -5:9-11?

 

[Douggg]

You are ducking around the obvious.

Where is a future tribulation period mentioned in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 -5:9-11?

You question is presumptive - i.e. your description of the time of God's wrath as being "a tribulation period". The correct terminology is "the great tribulation" as being when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth.

Matthew 24:For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

God's wrath (referred to 1Thessalonians5:9) can be found in the vials of God's wrath poured out upon the earth in Revelation 16.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

[WPM]

You question is presumptive - i.e. your description of the time of God's wrath as being "a tribulation period". The correct terminology is "the great tribulation" as being when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth.

Matthew 24:For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

God's wrath (referred to 1Thessalonians5:9) can be found in the vials of God's wrath poured out upon the earth in Revelation 16.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Talk about avoidance! Where is a future great tribulation period mentioned in 1Thessalonians 4:15-18-5:11?

Can you not come out and admit that it does not exist in your number one proof text?

 

[Davy]

You question is presumptive - i.e. your description of the time of God's wrath as being "a tribulation period". The correct terminology is "the great tribulation" as being when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth.

That idea, that God's cup of wrath is poured out 'during'... the "great tribulation", is another man-made idea from the Pre-trib Rapture school. God's cup of wrath is specifically poured out on the FINAL DAY of this present world, not during the "great tribulation". The previous vials are God's wrath, but the final 7th Vial is the pouring out of God's CUP of wrath, as it will end this present world.

Rev 16:15-20
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Lord Jesus said the above within the 6th Vial timing. The final 7th Vial is upcoming... which is when He will return...

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV

That final 7th Vial is when God's CUP of wrath is poured out. It's the last day when that happens, the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10). That is when Jesus returns.

Matthew 24:For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

God's wrath (referred to 1Thessalonians5:9) can be found in the vials of God's wrath poured out upon the earth in Revelation 16.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety", that "sudden destruction" will come upon them on that "day of the Lord". Can that mean the time of "great tribulation" would still be going on? Nope! All wickedness is ended on the "day of the Lord".

And not all... of those Vials of Rev.16 are about God's cup of wrath poured out on the 7th Vial.

 

[Douggg]

Talk about avoidance! Where is a future great tribulation period mentioned in 1Thessalonians 4:15-18-5:11?

Can you not come out and admit that it does not exist in your number one proof text?

The proof text I provided in my post 1352 and 1353, is that the rapture is in both 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11 to take place before the wrath of God takes place.

Just because the great tribulation is not specifically mentioned in either text is irrelevant.

btw, you and @Spiritual Israelite have yet to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

 

[WPM]

The proof text I provided in my post 1352 and 1353, is that the rapture is in both 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11 to take place before the wrath of God takes place.

Just because the great tribulation is not specifically mentioned in either text is irrelevant.

btw, you and @Spiritual Israelite have yet to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

Hello! There you have it! 1Thessalonians 4:15-18-5:11 is NOT a Pretrib passage. It is Posttrib. The persecution, the endurance, the tribulation is obviously all prior to this one final future climactic event. What is more, there are no survivors from the "sudden destruction" that arrives. None escape.

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 has absolutely nothing to do with the future return of Christ. Where is a rapture mentioned here? Where is a future great tribulation mentioned here? Where is a 3rd coming of Christ mentioned here? Nowhere! You are manipulating Scripture to support your false teaching.

 

[marks]

Deuteronomy 30:2-6 has absolutely nothing to do with the future return of Christ.

You may benefit from taking a few minutes to examine this passage and it's parallel passages before making such an uninformed statement.

Much love!

 

[marks]

btw, you and @Spiritual Israelite have yet to explain when Deuteronomy 30:2-6 will take place.

Looks like all you're going to get is derision instead of a real answer! Too bad! People sometimes learn things when they actually examine the material, even if only to try to prove themself right.

Much love!

 

[Douggg]

In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul showed the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety", that "sudden destruction" will come upon them on that "day of the Lord". Can that mean the time of "great tribulation" would still be going on? Nope! All wickedness is ended on the "day of the Lord".

The world saying "peace and safety" will be before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation.