It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

If Pretribbers want to insist Pretrib is true, simply submit the Scripture that proves when the dead in Christ allegedly rise prior to great tribulation, they put on bodily immortality the moment they rise. IOW, I'm looking for a clear Scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:52, except Pretribbers obviously can't use that Scripture since that Scripture is meaning post trib not pre trib.

I agree that 1 Corinthians 15 is post trib................pre wrath.

However, 1 Thes 4 is pretrib.

1 Corinthians 15 happens at the last trump............blown on the feast of trumpets.

1 Thes 4 is at the trump of God or voice of God.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

Dan. 9 and Daniel 11:36-45 are talking about the same person who conquers Israel in the end times get that END TIMES? Since God rent the temple when Jesus died (He left.....He forsook Israel for Dead Men's Bones....why can't you guys put scriptures together? That is why you can never solve God's prophesies) that means there could be no 70th week until the Time of the Gentiles [SERVICE] has come full, or the Rapture of the mostly Gentile Church.

Dan. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant (Antiochus and the Jews who betrayed Israel by becoming Hellenites) shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits(the Maccabean's).

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days(Maccabean War). 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries(Seduced by Hellenism).

TRANSITION to the very end, a 2200 year transition period inverse 35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed(much, much later than the Maccabean War shown in Dan. 11:32-34 its a the TIME of the END or during the end time 70th week).

36 And the king(End Time Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast...I have to do that because someone will say there is no Anti-Christ mentioned, yet there is on John's Epistle, he says THAT Anti-Christ) shall do according to his will(he thinks he is god, Antiochus served Zeus); and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplishedHe is still in power until God's indignation, or Wrath ends) for that that is determined shall be done.

I bet you do not think the 70th week is 2000 years after the 69th week do you? Those who get the Rapture Timing wrong, usually get many things wrong.

 

[David in NJ]

The church is the Gentile bride.
The covenant Jew is the "wife gone awhoring".
We are the bride.
The wedding feast in heaven points to the consummation.
The last supper has uncanny resemblance to the Jewish betrothal and vows. Almost an exact mirror.
Church = bride betrothed.
Covenant Jew = Wayward wife in rebellion.
In heaven they become one.
This is illustrated in Ruth

In heaven they become one.

You statement above comes from the spirit of antichrist.

Whoever is telling you this is either IGNORANT(dr. of divinity) or loves to make money off of preaching fairy tales.

“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

You BETTER make sure you are hearing God's words from the Holy Spirit and NOT from men.

As of right now, on this subject, you are believing men over God.

 

[David in NJ]

Dan. 9 and Daniel 11:36-45 are talking about the same person who conquers Israel in the end times get that END TIMES? Since God rent the temple when Jesus died (He left.....He forsook Israel for Dead Men's Bones....why can't you guys put scriptures together? That is why you can never solve God's prophesies) that means there could be no 70th week until the Time of the Gentiles [SERVICE] has come full, or the Rapture of the mostly Gentile Church.

Dan. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant (Antiochus and the Jews who betrayed Israel by becoming Hellenites) shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits(the Maccabean's).

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days(Maccabean War). 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries(Seduced by Hellenism).

TRANSITION to the very end, a 2200 year transition period inverse 35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed(much, much later than the Maccabean War shown in Dan. 11:32-34 its a the TIME of the END or during the end time 70th week).

36 And the king(End Time Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast...I have to do that because someone will say there is no Anti-Christ mentioned, yet there is on John's Epistle, he says THAT Anti-Christ) shall do according to his will(he thinks he is god, Antiochus served Zeus); and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplishedHe is still in power until God's indignation, or Wrath ends) for that that is determined shall be done.

I bet you do not think the 70th week is 2000 years after the 69th week do you? Those who get the Rapture Timing wrong, usually get many things wrong.

JESUS died in the 70th Week - NOT the 69th

Simple grammar and math - AFTER the 69th comes 70

 

[David in NJ]

Dan. 9 and Daniel 11:36-45 are talking about the same person who conquers Israel in the end times get that END TIMES? Since God rent the temple when Jesus died (He left.....He forsook Israel for Dead Men's Bones....why can't you guys put scriptures together? That is why you can never solve God's prophesies) that means there could be no 70th week until the Time of the Gentiles [SERVICE] has come full, or the Rapture of the mostly Gentile Church.

Dan. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant (Antiochus and the Jews who betrayed Israel by becoming Hellenites) shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits(the Maccabean's).

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days(Maccabean War). 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries(Seduced by Hellenism).

TRANSITION to the very end, a 2200 year transition period inverse 35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed(much, much later than the Maccabean War shown in Dan. 11:32-34 its a the TIME of the END or during the end time 70th week).

36 And the king(End Time Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast...I have to do that because someone will say there is no Anti-Christ mentioned, yet there is on John's Epistle, he says THAT Anti-Christ) shall do according to his will(he thinks he is god, Antiochus served Zeus); and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplishedHe is still in power until God's indignation, or Wrath ends) for that that is determined shall be done.

I bet you do not think the 70th week is 2000 years after the 69th week do you? Those who get the Rapture Timing wrong, usually get many things wrong.

that means there could be no 70th week until the Time of the Gentiles [SERVICE] has come full, or the Rapture of the mostly Gentile Church.

Those pre-fibbers who get the Rapture Timing wrong(see above) usually get many things wrong.

Ain't that the TRUTH

 

[IndianaRob]

i thought you graduated from 101 !!!

Teach me something. Why aren’t you married to Christ right now? What are you waiting on?

 

[David in NJ]

Teach me something. Why aren’t you married to Christ right now? What are you waiting on?

You never understood my poems of Truth, for in them i declare that i am His Bride along with all who belong to HIM.

 

[David in NJ]

The church is the Gentile bride.
The covenant Jew is the "wife gone awhoring".
We are the bride.
The wedding feast in heaven points to the consummation.
The last supper has uncanny resemblance to the Jewish betrothal and vows. Almost an exact mirror.
Church = bride betrothed.
Covenant Jew = Wayward wife in rebellion.
In heaven they become one.
This is illustrated in Ruth

Post 923 has been edited for you BENEFIT

 

[IndianaRob]

You never understood my poems of Truth, for in them i declare that i am His Bride along with all who belong to HIM.

Ok then you must believe Revelation 19:7 is not future then.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[David in NJ]

Ok then you must believe Revelation 19:7 is not future then.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE

But, right now, you do not know WHY

 

[David in NJ]

Ok then you must believe Revelation 19:7 is not future then.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE
But, right now, you do not know WHY

 

[WPM]

You probably missed my earlier response.

This was answered in post #857.

No, you avoided it in #857. The reader can see for themselves. That is because it is a made-up doctrine. It enjoys no biblical basis. This does not stop to basing your end-time views on this imagination in your head. It is telling that that is the gist of your speculations.

If you had Scripture you would present it. I will keep asking until you admit this is extra-biblical:

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
2. Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
3. Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?
4. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?
5. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

 

[WPM]

Dan. 9 and Daniel 11:36-45 are talking about the same person who conquers Israel in the end times get that END TIMES? Since God rent the temple when Jesus died (He left.....He forsook Israel for Dead Men's Bones....why can't you guys put scriptures together? That is why you can never solve God's prophesies) that means there could be no 70th week until the Time of the Gentiles [SERVICE] has come full, or the Rapture of the mostly Gentile Church.

Dan. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant (Antiochus and the Jews who betrayed Israel by becoming Hellenites) shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits(the Maccabean's).

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days(Maccabean War). 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries(Seduced by Hellenism).

TRANSITION to the very end, a 2200 year transition period inverse 35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed(much, much later than the Maccabean War shown in Dan. 11:32-34 its a the TIME of the END or during the end time 70th week).

36 And the king(End Time Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast...I have to do that because someone will say there is no Anti-Christ mentioned, yet there is on John's Epistle, he says THAT Anti-Christ) shall do according to his will(he thinks he is god, Antiochus served Zeus); and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplishedHe is still in power until God's indignation, or Wrath ends) for that that is determined shall be done.

I bet you do not think the 70th week is 2000 years after the 69th week do you? Those who get the Rapture Timing wrong, usually get many things wrong.

Talk about adding onto Scripture. Talk about butchering the sacred text. That is all you presented here. None of it is in context. None of it mentions the Church. None of it shows a rapture of the Church. None of it shows a seven year tribulation. None of it shows a third coming.

Thanks for reinforcing what I wrote in the Op. This is typical Pretrib manipulation of the Bible.

 

[WPM]

I agree that 1 Corinthians 15 is post trib................pre wrath.

However, 1 Thes 4 is pretrib.

1 Corinthians 15 happens at the last trump............blown on the feast of trumpets.

1 Thes 4 is at the trump of God or voice of God.

You are seeing double every time! This is the same event!

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no tribulation period in-between “the coming of the Lord” (and the catching away of the saints) and “the day of the Lord” (and the sudden destruction of the wicked, from which none escape) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This is one event.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

 

[David in NJ]

You are seeing double every time! This is the same event!

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no tribulation period in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

All Good except for:

• There is no tribulation period in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

You MUST take into account ALL of 1 Thessalonians which culminates.

 

[IndianaRob]

PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE

But, right now, you do not know WHY

Yes I know why. It’s because your belief system requires it to be future and it will fall like a house of cards of it isn’t.

I say shame on you for adding to the word of God instead of letting it correct your faulty view.

 

[Davidpt]

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

I'm assuming you realize that initially there are things hidden in the OT that aren't revealed until there is the NT, right? But then you make absurd arguments against that idea by arguing, where does it mention a tribulation period in Daniel 9, for example?

How about here, for one?

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate(Daniel 9:27).

Compared with.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


And guess what? Some interpreters, maybe even you, apply that part I submitted per verse 27 to that of what I submitted per Matthew 24 and some interpreters insist it is meaning 70 AD. It doesn't matter if that interpretation is correct or not, meaning maybe it's meaning in the end of this age instead, but either way, whether 70 AD is meant, or whether the end of this age is meant, the point is, if what I submitted per Daniel 9:27 involves what I submitted per Matthew 24, it is then silly to ask where is great tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9.

Here's an idea. Instead of you claiming you believe that some things are hidden in the OT and aren't revealed until there is the NT, quit doing that in your case since you don't know what you are talking about if you expect something to already be revealed in the OT before it is revealed in the NT. IOW, your demands at times have you contradicting what you claim to believe, that there are things hidden in the OT that aren't revealed until there is the NT to reveal them.

 

[WPM]

Firstly, you seemingly do not understand the bible is about Israel, so there will only be a few hints at the Churches Rapture in the New Testament, and in some of those like 2 Thess. 2 Satan has subverted the meaning in order to deceive. You problem, like many, you have no understanding of TIMNG TELLS and how God uses them. Nowhere did God explicitly state what date, when, et al that Jesus was going to be born, but King Herod had people trying to kill baby Jesus, so scriptures can tell us things even when God doesn't hit us over the head and give us a fast date. Everything is done by TIMING TELLS, like the Messiah, Godly people knew the Messiah must be cut off (die) by the end of the 69th week, so people were looking for him and some were telling King Herod this so he starting killing all babies under 2 years old in a certain place. So, just because we do not get a write up, giving us a date means nothing.

If you really understood Romans chapters 9-11 you might be able to grasp he raptures TIMING. In Rom. chapter 9 we get Paul telling the Romans not to get the big head about being called by God, then he tells them why Israel was forsaken, its all about FAITH. Then he tells about how God chooses whom He wills when He wills, in other words its all about whom God choose to SERVE Him, as in Service unto God. So, he demonstrates this, God chose Abraham, God hardened Pharaohs heart, God chose Jacob over Esau while they were both still in the womb, God is the potter and choses what vessel He wishes to to create, who can tell the potter (God) what to do is the essence of the chapter as in who can tell God whom to chose for SERVICE (this is KEY in ch. 11 of understanding the pre trib. Rapture)

Then in Ch. 11Paul says has God cast away His people? No, He has not. Paul later says they have stumbled that grace might come unto the whole world. Paul then speaks about the branches being broken off because of UNBELIEF and ads in when/if their unbelief goes away they will be grafted back i again. (TIMING TELL COMIG UP......KEY, which you seemingly can not grasp)

Roman 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

Do you even understand tht Romans 9-11 are one passage meant to go together? There were no chapters or verses in the bible, the English translators put them in. So, above, Paul is speaking about SERVICE unto God when he says the Fulness of the Gentiles, you know why we know? READ Romans 9 !! In these three chapters Paul is explaining how Gid had not cast Israel away for good, how God uses the service of those whom He will, when He wills. How God cut them off (the branches) and will one day graft them back into the Olive Tree Family, BUT WHEN? That is what Paul just told us in vs. 25, if we LISTEN !! Instead of already knowing it all.

Paul says do not be ignorant of this SECRET, (Muo in Greek means God is silent by shutting the mouth so its more apt to call this a secret, not a mystery per se) lest you think you are wiser than you are, you are no better than Israel in your calling (basically Paul is saying God has chosen you to serve now, He chose them as the people/nation to birth the Messiah and He will graft Israel back in when the Fulness of the Gentiles SERVICE is over). The blindness IN PART points to Israel being blind, but not individual Jews, every man must have a chance of redemption, of course, via a Just God. The Diaspora is why Israel could not repent as a nation. So, why bring them back in UNBELIEF in 1948? To get them ready for THEIR TIME, when they repent just after the pre 70th week rapture, when the TIME of the Gentiles Service has come full, meaning we are no longer on earth. But of course you can not understand these TIMIG TELLS. They are scattered throughout out the bible.

When I destroy all your points like most people who can not understand these things, you will come back with snide belittling remarks while dodging the facts I present, but I am used to that with you guys.

Instead of repeating what you have been taught over the years, how about showing us clear water-tight Scripture that teaches what you claim? Where does Romans 9-11 mention the return of Israel to her ancient borders? Where does it mention the land? Where in Daniel 9 does it even mention a rapture of the Church before a tribulation period? Where does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? This is just a convoluted twisting of Scripture to support Pretrib. You cannot answer any of these simple questions because your doctrine is not in Scripture.

Romans 11:25 declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in (or, of) part is happened to Israel, until (or achris hou) the fulness (or full amount) of the Gentiles be come in.”

Dispensationalists interpret this passage as if there is an age of Gentile conversion, which when concluded is followed by an age of Jewish conversion. However, that is not what this is saying. In fact, we know that salvation is equally open to Jews and Gentiles during the new covenant period. This alone should nail the fallacy that we are in a day of only Gentile salvation. This current era is not limited to Gentiles, and the period before the end is not limited to Jews. This passage isn’t remotely suggesting that there is a day coming when salvation will be removed from the Gentiles and given to the Jews. There isn’t a time in the future when salvation is available that Gentiles will be excluded from being saved. Such a thought is absurd. Salvation is available to the “whosever will” right up until the end. The door of opportunity is equally open to the Jew and Gentile during this intra-Advent period.

Now is the day of salvation, the only day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2 confirms, “behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”

Of course, much Scripture depicts the end of salvation as the climactic second coming of Christ. There is no salvation after the return of Jesus. This is when the longsuffering of God comes to an end (2 Peter 3:9, 15). This is when the full amount of Gentiles will be completed. What is more, once the nations of the world have heard the Gospel the ends comes. There is not another age of salvation. Jesus said in Matthew 24:14: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This is when the full amount of Gentiles will be completed. The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

Another problem with the Dispensational viewpoint is that it advocates an ongoing distinction between races – specifically the Jew and the Gentile. It also attributes a merit to one’s race – saying that one day one’s birthright will determine salvation. The New Testament is careful to show that race means nothing today – or ever will. It carries no favor. There is no distinction between the nations. They believe there will be some future day – namely the Coming of Christ – when race will mean something and it will determine whether one will be saved or not. For example, they intimate this reading before us proves that there is a day coming when the whole nation of Israel will be corporately saved. Race obviously is an incredible benefit. This racial identity will then automatically secure their salvation. If this is so we should offer those that are not born again a plan b, namely convert to Judaism because it is going to guarantee their salvation at Christ's return.

What many forget is that there is no division of Jew and Gentile in this final age of salvation. This is seen throughout the New Testament. Both can equally enter into salvation through the redeeming blood of Jesus. Neither is there a Gentile day of salvation separated from a Jewish day of salvation. There are no ethnic barriers in this Gospel today. Jews and Gentiles are viewed exactly the same by God – sinners in need of salvation; neither are they separated on the grounds of racial birth by the Gospel; rather they are united by it. All men are invited to put their trust in Christ on the same grounds with the same need. Premillennialists wrongly exegete this reading; they interpret it in a chronological manner, as if the Gentiles come in first, then the Jews follow later. This is wrong. Jews and Gentiles are coming in together now. There is no time when Jews and Gentiles don't come in together. They assuredly come in simultaneously.

 

[Davidpt]

Those pre-fibbers who get the Rapture Timing wrong(see above) usually get many things wrong.



Ain't that the TRUTH

A perfect title for them since I assume that wasn't a typo---pre-fibbers. I like it. I'm sure they don't, though. But that is their problem not mine. After all, they are the ones contradicting Scripture after Scripture by insisting the rapture precedes great tribulation rather than follows it. Sounds like fibbing to me. They have the dead rising from the dead unable to put on bodily immortality once they rise since bodily immortality is meaning post trib not pre trib. And that is just one of the numerous Scriptures their view contradicts.

 

[WPM]

All Good except for:

• There is no tribulation period in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

You MUST take into account ALL of 1 Thessalonians which culminates.

I clarified my argument a bit better in Point 2.

1. There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
2. There is no tribulation period in-between “the coming of the Lord” (and the catching away of the saints) and “the day of the Lord” (and the sudden destruction of the wicked, from which none escape) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This is one event.
3. There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
4. There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.