It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

I have been called unto Eschatology for plus 40 years, you are probably just a message board warrior, I bet you never put in studies that takes weeks or months do you? Its my job to do so, let you think you have all the answers, and wrongly call people who actually are in the know False Teachers, thats just sad really.

You are so full of yourself. Get off you high Pharisaic seat before you fall off. Pride cometh before a fall.

 

[David in NJ]

I clarified my argument a bit better in Point 2.

1. There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
2. There is no tribulation period in-between “the coming of the Lord” (and the catching away of the saints) and “the day of the Lord” (and the sudden destruction of the wicked, from which none escape) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This is one event.
3. There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
4. There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

TY for the update

 

[WPM]

TY for the update

You are welcome bro!

 

[David in NJ]

A perfect title for them since I assume that wasn't a typo---pre-fibbers. I like it. I'm sure they don't, though. But that is their problem not mine. After all, they are the ones contradicting Scripture after Scripture by insisting the rapture precedes great tribulation rather than follows it. Sounds like fibbing to me. They have the dead rising from the dead unable to put on bodily immortality once they rise since bodily immortality is meaning post trib not pre trib. And that is just one of the numerous Scriptures their view contradicts.

Please continue on here as our Brothers in Christ NEED help SEEING the simple child-like TRUTH of the Holy Scriptures.

There is a 'pandemic' in american christianity = 'respect of persons' also called 'partiality'

What is 'respect of persons'?
JESUS says it BEST: How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

Deuteronomy 1:17 - Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's:

pre-trib rapture = whether it is Truth or Falsehood, God has ALREADY Declared it in His word.

This is why i have offered to @Ronald D Milam @The Light @MA2444 or anyone,
$1,000.00 USD for just one of the following:

1.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, JESUS or the Apostles that proclaim/prophecy of the Rapture of His Bride BEFORE the Resurrection at His Coming.

2.) Scripture where JESUS proclaims: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

3.) Scripture where the Apostles proclaim: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

4.) OT Prophets proclaiming/prophecy of a pre-trib rapture for the saints/elect/congregation BEFORE Tribulation and/or the AoD

5.) NT declaration/prophecy of separating Jew from Gentile in the Body of Christ.

6.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, any of the Apostles and/or the LORD proclaiming His elect/saints/bride/church will NOT suffer tribulation unto death via a pre-trib rapture.
*** with the EXCEPTION of those who will be alive and remaining at His Coming***

 

[David in NJ]

You are welcome bro!

5 years ago a SUV going 50mph made a direct hit into my driver door.

Almost flipped my truck.
The driver window air-bag saved my head from smashing thru the window.
However the air-bag deployment gave me a serious concussion.
Scripture i am GOOD-2-GO, but i sometimes forget comments from posts.

 

[WPM]

5 years ago a SUV going 50mph made a direct hit into my driver door.

Almost flipped my truck.
The driver window air-bag saved my head from smashing thru the window.
However the air-bag deployment gave me a serious concussion.
Scripture i am GOOD-2-GO, but i sometimes forget comments from posts.

May you know full healing bro.

 

[Davidpt]

2.) Scripture where JESUS proclaims: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

3.) Scripture where the Apostles proclaim: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

Let's look at these 2 for a moment.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Where in that text does it ever mention that Christ comes, in any sense, prior to when verse 15 is meaning? Where in that text does it ever mention the sounding of a trumpet? After all, the rapture recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4 involves the sounding of a trumpet, except I can't find anything in Matthew 24 prior to verse 15 nor verses 15-26 themselves, involving a trumpet sound. Nor can I find anything in Matthew 24 prior to verse 15 nor verses 15-26 themselves, involving anyone rising from the dead. Why then are Pretribbers placing events in Matthew 24 that don't support being placed there?

Pretribbers are adding to the text. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 does not fit before Matthew 24:15 is meaning. It fits when Matthew 24:27 is meaning. It fits this--For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who knows, but maybe Paul had insight into that there would be Pretribbers someday? Not only was that warning applicable back then when there wasn't even a position such as Pretrib yet, it is still applicable today when he warned---Let no man deceive you by any means. And if we apply that warning today, the following seems like a proper way to understand it---Let no Pretribber deceive you by any means. And this is not even factoring in Preterism. I guess they would be trying to deceive us as well if they are applying that passage to the first century only, that it has nothing to do with Christ's bodily return in the end of this age. Yet, the manner Preterits would be trying to deceive us would be different than the manner Pretribbers are trying to deceive us here.

 

[MA2444]

A perfect title for them since I assume that wasn't a typo---pre-fibbers. I like it. I'm sure they don't, though. But that is their problem not mine. After all, they are the ones contradicting Scripture after Scripture by insisting the rapture precedes great tribulation rather than follows it. Sounds like fibbing to me. They have the dead rising from the dead unable to put on bodily immortality once they rise since bodily immortality is meaning post trib not pre trib. And that is just one of the numerous Scriptures their view contradicts.

I'm curious. What type of problem do the pretribbers have even if it turns out we are wrong?

 

[MA2444]

The pre trib. rapture is only dead in your mind my friend, because it is factual, even if you can not dig it out. There are reasons why it not a theme throughout the bible, because the bible is about Israel, if they had not rejected Jesus as their Messiah there would not have been a church age at all, but God knew they would reject Jesus so He planed ahead, foretelling how a peoples He had not known He would call (Gentiles). So, the fault is all your, the bible was not about the Church but Israel, none of the prophets were privy to the Church per se, but they are mentioned here and there, like when Isaiah stated God would call a people he had not known. Like in Dan. 11 where we get the "transition period" in verses 34-35, where many are made "White" until the end, well that's mainly not Jews right? Its the Church being made white, some are Jews, but there was no Israel for 2000 years, so its about the Church. But one must use common sense, and not have a predesignated, entrenched position, else they become blind to facts.

I started out as a pretribber and then I somehow went post trib, and then I was mid trib for awhile too. But I thought to myself, what if I'm wrong? I will be left behind. So I prayed and I read and I prayed and I read and I prayed and I read, and the Lord opened up to me and tada I am pre trib again! It says it right in there if you keep at the study! And it cant be at the same time as the 2nd coming. At the 2nd coming He touches down at the Mt of Olives. At the rapture He comes in the air. So I too, dunno how some of them can be so entrenched into their post trib condition that they grow unteachable.

I learn something new every day. By figuring that I have it wrong to start with. In that way, I remain teachable.

Not all teaching comes from the Written word, only like, 90% of it. The other 10% is the Holy Spirit leading us into some truth. (sic) Leading us into All Truth. If we arent sensitive to the voice of the Holy Spirit, we may never figure it out! And when I say, uh-oh I was wrong about (whatever), it's really this way...then a supernatural peace comes over me and I know it is true what I am meditating on or hearing. And that's what scripture says about the Holy Spirit and the peace of God. I suspect that some posttribbers dont listen for the Holy Spirit? Can't hear Him?

 

[The Light]

Please continue on here as our Brothers in Christ NEED help SEEING the simple child-like TRUTH of the Holy Scriptures.

There is a 'pandemic' in american christianity = 'respect of persons' also called 'partiality'

What is 'respect of persons'?
JESUS says it BEST: How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

Deuteronomy 1:17 - Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's:

pre-trib rapture = whether it is Truth or Falsehood, God has ALREADY Declared it in His word.

This is why i have offered to @Ronald D Milam @The Light @MA2444 or anyone,
$1,000.00 USD for just one of the following:

1.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, JESUS or the Apostles that proclaim/prophecy of the Rapture of His Bride BEFORE the Resurrection at His Coming.

2.) Scripture where JESUS proclaims: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

3.) Scripture where the Apostles proclaim: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

4.) OT Prophets proclaiming/prophecy of a pre-trib rapture for the saints/elect/congregation BEFORE Tribulation and/or the AoD

5.) NT declaration/prophecy of separating Jew from Gentile in the Body of Christ.

6.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, any of the Apostles and/or the LORD proclaiming His elect/saints/bride/church will NOT suffer tribulation unto death via a pre-trib rapture.
*** with the EXCEPTION of those who will be alive and remaining at His Coming***

lol

 

[David in NJ]

Let's look at these 2 for a moment.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Where in that text does it ever mention that Christ comes, in any sense, prior to when verse 15 is meaning? Where in that text does it ever mention the sounding of a trumpet? After all, the rapture recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4 involves the sounding of a trumpet, except I can't find anything in Matthew 24 prior to verse 15 nor verses 15-26 themselves, involving a trumpet sound. Nor can I find anything in Matthew 24 prior to verse 15 nor verses 15-26 themselves, involving anyone rising from the dead. Why then are Pretribbers placing events in Matthew 24 that don't support being placed there?

Pretribbers are adding to the text. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 does not fit before Matthew 24:15 is meaning. It fits when Matthew 24:27 is meaning. It fits this--For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who knows, but maybe Paul had insight into that there would be Pretribbers someday? Not only was that warning applicable back then when there wasn't even a position such as Pretrib yet, it is still applicable today when he warned---Let no man deceive you by any means. And if we apply that warning today, the following seems like a proper way to understand it---Let no Pretribber deceive you by any means. And this is not even factoring in Preterism. I guess they would be trying to deceive us as well if they are applying that passage to the first century only, that it has nothing to do with Christ's bodily return in the end of this age. Yet, the manner Preterits would be trying to deceive us would be different than the manner Pretribbers are trying to deceive us here.

Did you see the WARNING against a pre-trib rapture???

Here it is:
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm curious. What type of problem do the pretribbers have even if it turns out we are wrong?

#1 - False prophesying is sin
#2 - It DIVIDES the Body of Christ = another sin that God hates
#3 - It is the SAME coercive bully tactics used by those in leadership position to make disciples of themselves instead of disciples of the Holy Spirit = see Acts/Stephen
#4 - It deceives christians to be "respecter of persons" = doctorate of divinity = another illusion of superiority = antichrist
#5 - It will undermine the faith of many when it is exposed as the lie it is.

EVIDENCE: You even declared it: "What if I am wrong (FEAR) I would be left behind" = from your post 949

That is a BULLY Tactic of a Un-Biblical FEAR driven by a lie for the purpose of controlling/fleecing the 'flock'.

EVIDENCE: Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
So we may boldly say:
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”

The TRUTH of God is asking you @MA244, = God has promised HE would never leave any of His behind.

@MA244 - so who is lying? God or pre-trib rapture/left behind?

 

[MA2444]

Did you see the WARNING against a pre-trib rapture???

Here it is:
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

I am the temple of the Holy Spirit is what scripture says, all of us. We dont have to get up and go somewhere or even go to the window, He is coming for US. We know we are the temple now, so we go within ourselves to commune with the Holy Spirit and the Lord. Not out in the desert, lol.

Can you imagine being in the Spirit at the moment the rapture happens? !! To be actually praying to Him and communing with Him at that time? I doubt He would say I'm coming because He said it is a surprise (He's already saying that. He's been saying soon for 2000 years now!) but I would expect to hear a, I'm Here!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Look rebuilder what you’re saying is IMPOSSIBLE. This is more made up stuff that your side comes up with to support your view.

Christ is not a fornicator, he will not join with a woman to produce the new man if he’s is not married to that woman.

You have no idea what I said and what you are saying.
The ENTIRE THEME of end times is the bride and groom.
SMH

 

[David in NJ]

I am the temple of the Holy Spirit is what scripture says, all of us. We dont have to get up and go somewhere or even go to the window, He is coming for US. We know we are the temple now, so we go within ourselves to commune with the Holy Spirit and the Lord. Not out in the desert, lol.

Can you imagine being in the Spirit at the moment the rapture happens? !! To be actually praying to Him and communing with Him at that time? I doubt He would say I'm coming because He said it is a surprise (He's already saying that. He's been saying soon for 2000 years now!) but I would expect to hear a, I'm Here!

100% TRUE and WE are TOGETHER on His Promise.

i posted His PROMISE that is for ALL who belong to Him in post 952 for you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You statement above comes from the spirit of antichrist.

Whoever is telling you this is either IGNORANT(dr. of divinity) or loves to make money off of preaching fairy tales.

“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

You BETTER make sure you are hearing God's words from the Holy Spirit and NOT from men.

As of right now, on this subject, you are believing men over God.

Some generalize demonization of me without anything at all to refute me or back up your silly demonizing of the body of Christ

 

[David in NJ]

I am the temple of the Holy Spirit is what scripture says, all of us. We dont have to get up and go somewhere or even go to the window, He is coming for US. We know we are the temple now, so we go within ourselves to commune with the Holy Spirit and the Lord. Not out in the desert, lol.

Can you imagine being in the Spirit at the moment the rapture happens? !! To be actually praying to Him and communing with Him at that time? I doubt He would say I'm coming because He said it is a surprise (He's already saying that. He's been saying soon for 2000 years now!) but I would expect to hear a, I'm Here!

You MISSED the DIRECT Warning of the LORD = "there is no pre-trib rapture, therefore DO NOT go looking for it!

 

[David in NJ]

Some generalize demonization of me without anything at all to refute me or back up your silly demonizing of tge body of Christ

My precious Brother rebuilder 454, whom CHRIST died and Rose for:

The Scripture in post 923 is NOT about you, my Brother in Christ.

It was given to show you that Jews(and Gentiles) who reject CHRIST will NEVER make it to Heaven let alone be joined to the Saints.

 

[David in NJ]

I am the temple of the Holy Spirit is what scripture says, all of us. We dont have to get up and go somewhere or even go to the window, He is coming for US. We know we are the temple now, so we go within ourselves to commune with the Holy Spirit and the Lord. Not out in the desert, lol.

Can you imagine being in the Spirit at the moment the rapture happens? !! To be actually praying to Him and communing with Him at that time? I doubt He would say I'm coming because He said it is a surprise (He's already saying that. He's been saying soon for 2000 years now!) but I would expect to hear a, I'm Here!

PLEASE answer the question presented to you in Post 952

The correct answer is for everyone's benefit.

 

[David in NJ]

lol

LOL x100