It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Psalm 139]

Brother,

The LORD Jesus Christ says it it is important and necessary for you to to show forth a 'pre-trib' rapture from Matthew chapter 24.

Matt 5:41 - "And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you,"

1 Peter 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience,

If pre-trib rapture is in Matthew chapter 24, then by the Will of God please post what you SEE!

If, it is there, all will be Blessed and thus fulfill the Scripture which says: "that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed."

SHALOM

1 Thessalonians 5:9​

I think there are many passages that relate God's Elect as described in the Matthew chapter will not suffer his wrath, great tribulation, upon the world .

I think tone is important to discern sincerity of heart in such matters.

I also don't think I can open a heart to God's promise. Only God by his will is able. We share his word here among one another while his grace is the light that leads to all understanding, or not.

God bless.

 

[rwb]

“But that which is raised (not resurrected from the dead) still being a living soul is a spiritual body”

I don’t know what you mean by this. Can you show me the verse where you get the soul is a spiritual body.

The body sown is the flesh that died. It shall not be resurrected again until the last trump sounds. What is raised, not resurrected, because it never died, never ceased being a "living soul". But when the natural body died as spiritual body a living soul without physical form was raised up to heaven a spiritual body of Christ. Just as on earth the Church as a whole is a spiritual body clothed in human flesh & bone. So, too after our natural body dies believers continue to be living souls in heaven without human form because there, we are the spiritual body of Christ. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and neither does corruption, and our natural body of flesh will not be resurrected immortal until Christ comes again.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We are a living soul as long as there is life present. That life can be physical before our natural body dies, and that life can be spiritual after our natural body dies IF we have the Holy Spirit in us. Because that is how the word 'soul' is defined. To be called a 'soul' there must be life. Without life the dead are called a corpse, and when the spirit of the dead returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7) that man is said to be in silence and darkness, knowing nothing at all.

 

[The Light]

Maybe there are 2 last trumps as well. Right?

Sure. We know that the Last Trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15 has to be blown of the Feast of Trumpets. And there is a last trumpet blown by an angel at the end of wrath. So, sure, two works.

Keeping in mind that the last trump recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is obviously the same trump recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Ahhhhhh.......No.

The last trump blown in 1 Corinthians 15 is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

The trump of God that sounds in 1 Thes 4 is the voice of God.
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

So they cannot be the same.

After all, both accounts involve someone literally bodily rising from the dead. It makes no sense to bodily rise from the dead unless one is going to be putting on bodily immortality at the time. 1 Corinthians 15:52 makes it crystal,clear that that happens at the last trump.

The last trump being spoken of in 1 Cor 15 is sounded on the Feast of Trumpets. It is for the people of Daniel. It is the time when MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Note, that not all of them that sleep in the ground are raised at this time.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is one going to argue, for example, when Christ bodily rose from the dead, that He did not put on bodily immortality at the time but had to wait until sometime later to do that?

No. Why would anyone argue that?

The point being, if the trumpet recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is not meaning the last trumpet recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:52, and that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 involves someone bodily rising from te dead, this would mean they are bodily rising in vain if it is not until 3.5 years later or more when they finally get around to putting on bodily immortality.

In 1 Corinthians 15 we are talking about the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. This is for the people of Daniel, when MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. So your last trump analogy does not stand up to the scriptural test.

If a position, such as Pretrib, leads to nonsense like this, shouldn't the nonsense it leads to be enough alone to convince Pretribbers that Pretrib can't be Biblical?

When one walks without understanding Scriptural Facts might sound like nonsense. Once we realize that MANY are raised in Daniel 12, and they are of the people of Daniel, all that last trump blown by an angel misunderstanding goes up in smoke.

Do you realize that John had not written Revelation until decades after Paul wrote Corinthians. Nobody would have known what the last trump was if it was the trumpet in Revelation. However, all the Jews knew that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets a harvest feast. The Jews know that, but the Gentiles don't.

Why don't Pretribbers ever factor in things like that before insisting Pretrib is Biblical, some of the nonsense it leads to if Pretrib is true?

I don't think you have your facts correct. When you read Daniel 12 it should be clear that you are not factoring in all the facts before dismissing the truth.

 

[IndianaRob]

The body sown is the flesh that died.

It makes no sense to say the body is sown in the flesh that died. The body IS the flesh.

That’s like saying a seed is sown in a seed. Or a plant is sown in a plant.

Do you see what I’m talking about?

 

[The Light]

They were all indeed destroyed. That is what Jesus said. He then compares these two days to His one final future climatic return. Read what He says. This proves all the wicked are destroyed when He returns. There is no one to populate your future trib or a future millennium. All the wicked, all mortals, are gone!

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Exactly. When it is like the days of Lot the Son of man is revealed. This is the second coming that occurs at the 6th. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will remain in clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then explains of a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed.

Ahhhhhhh............No.

The Son of man will be like lightning in His day. Just one day? No.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven. The regrafted 12 tribes are gathered from the earth

The gathering from heaven and earth happens prior to the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath.

Revelation 16:15-21: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done (or gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

How can anyone survive this?

Exactly. How can anyone survive this destruction when the Lord returns with the armies of heaven. Those at Armageddon will be destroyed
suddenly, as He will come like a thief.

This is the end of the world! When Christ returns, He shakes the hole of creation and destroys all the wicked. The universe is convulsing in this narrative as God calls time on corruption and rebellion. This is not some mere localized event. It is global! The “great earthquake” described is so colossal that “the cities of the nations fell” and “every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.” The whole earth is shaken. This corruptible earth is having seizures before it is transformed.

God will set up His kingdom on the earth.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It's time for the millennial reign.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. When it is like the days of Lot the Son of man is revealed. This is the second coming that occurs at the 6th. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will remain in clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Ahhhhhhh............No.

The Son of man will be like lightning in His day. Just one day? No.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.



The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven. The regrafted 12 tribes are gathered from the earth

The gathering from heaven and earth happens prior to the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath.


Exactly. How can anyone survive this destruction when the Lord returns with the armies of heaven. Those at Armageddon will be destroyed
suddenly, as He will come like a thief.

God will set up His kingdom on the earth.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It's time for the millennial reign.

It is the same singular day. Everyone will see Him on this final day. The elect will all be rescued (as in Noah's day and Sodom), but it will catch all the wicked by surprise and destroyed (as in Noah's day and Sodom). It is the end!

 

[WPM]

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It's time for the millennial reign.

There is no mortals left to populate your supposed future millennium. Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation 11:15 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

 

[rwb]

It makes no sense to say the body is sown in the flesh that died. The body IS the flesh.

That’s like saying a seed is sown in a seed. Or a plant is sown in a plant.

Do you see what I’m talking about?

The body is flesh with the breath of life (spirit) and together the two became a living soul. As long as there is life either of the body or the spirit believers are living souls.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The external body was formed of the 'dust of the ground' (clay), and the LORD breathed into his nostrils the 'breath of life' and he became a living soul. This breath of life (chay) in man gives us the vital breath that makes us alive, it gives us intellect and divine inspiration to know God, called soul and spirit.

Breath is defined -

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh)
Search for H5397 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Living soul means that which is alive - anything still possessing life (chay)

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nephesh)
Search for H5315 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh

from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

Since the life we have in Christ when we are born again of His Spirit, that life shall NEVER die. But our body dies, so how can the life we have through Christ's Spirit in us be eternal/everlasting life since our body dies, if not through spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit? Christ gives us assurance that the life we have in Him when we believe is forever and that eternal life comes from His Spirit in our spirit.

 

[Davidpt]

No. Why would anyone argue that?

Exactly! Therefore, not saying anyone would. I merely used it as an example to show that if someone is rising from the dead, such as per the rapture event recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4, they, just like Christ did, would be putting on bodily immortality the moment they rise. But how could they if Pretrib has this event meaning at least 3.5 years earlier than that of the last trump recorded in 1 Corithians 15:52? IOW, why are they even rising from the dead to begin with, prior to great tribulation according to Pretrib, if none of them are even putting on bodily immortality at the time?

Therefore, there is no such event as Pretrib since there is nothing recorded in the Bible that can support that anyone puts on bodily immortality prior to great trib. 1 Corithians 15:52 certainly can't support that. Unless they put on bodily immortality at the time, their alleged rising before great trib begins is pointless. It makes no sense.

As to these trumpets you mentioned pertaining to feasts, all I can about that is this. I don't feel any of it supports Pretrib but I do believe that there are still the fall feasts to fulfill. The last recorded feast fulfilled appears to be the feast of Pentecost. It only stands to reason that just like the Spring feasts were fulfilled and in the correct order, the same has to be true in regards to the Fall feasts. In this regard you and I might have something somewhat in common, except I don't see any of it leading to Pretrib, though.

So, unlike some of these Amils around here that are apparently clueless about how these Fall feasts still need to be fulfilled, I'm not clueless. I might not have as much insight into that that someone else might have. But I do recognize that these Fall feasts are still relevant even in this day and time. But none of them will be involving animal sacrificing or anything like that. That would contradict that the feasts that Christ already fulfilled in their correct order and correct season, that none of them were fulfilled in that manner where it involved animal sacrificing, etc. The same has to be true in regards to the unfulfilled Fall feasts.

 

[WPM]

So, unlike some of these Amils around here that are apparently clueless about how these Fall feasts still need to be fulfilled, I'm not clueless. I might not have as much insight into that that someone else might have. But I do recognize that these Fall feasts are still relevant even in this day and time. But none of them will be involving animal sacrificing or anything like that. That would contradict that the feasts that Christ already fulfilled in their correct order and correct season, that none of them were fulfilled in that manner where it involved animal sacrificing, etc. The same has to be true in regards to the unfulfilled Fall feasts.

Can you teach us what we have to expect with these feasts at the end and what exactly we are missing? And, where is all this in the NT?

 

[WPM]

Sure. We know that the Last Trump spoken of in 1 Cor 15 has to be blown of the Feast of Trumpets. And there is a last trumpet blown by an angel at the end of wrath. So, sure, two works.


Ahhhhhh.......No.

The last trump blown in 1 Corinthians 15 is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

The trump of God that sounds in 1 Thes 4 is the voice of God.
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

So they cannot be the same.


The last trump being spoken of in 1 Cor 15 is sounded on the Feast of Trumpets. It is for the people of Daniel. It is the time when MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. Note, that not all of them that sleep in the ground are raised at this time.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



No. Why would anyone argue that?

In 1 Corinthians 15 we are talking about the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. This is for the people of Daniel, when MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake. So your last trump analogy does not stand up to the scriptural test.


When one walks without understanding Scriptural Facts might sound like nonsense. Once we realize that MANY are raised in Daniel 12, and they are of the people of Daniel, all that last trump blown by an angel misunderstanding goes up in smoke.

Do you realize that John had not written Revelation until decades after Paul wrote Corinthians. Nobody would have known what the last trump was if it was the trumpet in Revelation. However, all the Jews knew that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets a harvest feast. The Jews know that, but the Gentiles don't.


I don't think you have your facts correct. When you read Daniel 12 it should be clear that you are not factoring in all the facts before dismissing the truth.

• Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
• Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
• Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?
• Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?

 

[IndianaRob]

The body is flesh with the breath of life (spirit) and together the two became a living soul. As long as there is life either of the body or the spirit believers are living souls.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The external body was formed of the 'dust of the ground' (clay), and the LORD breathed into his nostrils the 'breath of life' and he became a living soul. This breath of life (chay) in man gives us the vital breath that makes us alive, it gives us intellect and divine inspiration to know God, called soul and spirit.

Breath is defined -

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5397. נְשָׁמָה neshamah (nᵉshâmâh)
Search for H5397 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

Living soul means that which is alive - anything still possessing life (chay)

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
5315. נֶפֶשׁ nephesh (nephesh)
Search for H5315 in KJVSL; in KJV.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh

from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

Since the life we have in Christ when we are born again of His Spirit, that life shall NEVER die. But our body dies, so how can the life we have through Christ's Spirit in us be eternal/everlasting life since our body dies, if not through spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit? Christ gives us assurance that the life we have in Him when we believe is forever and that eternal life comes from His Spirit in our spirit.

So are you saying the bare grain (seed) in the verses below are the combination of the soul and body?

If the grain (seed) is the body/soul then what is the body given to the grain (seed)?

Sorry for the confusion but I’m finding it very difficult to reconcile what your saying with these verses.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

[Davidpt]

Can you teach us what we have to expect with these feasts at the end and what exactly we are missing? And, where is all this in the NT?

Sometimes it takes using logical deducing of things. If Christ fulfilled the Spring feasts in their correct order and correct season, the same has to be true in regards to the Fall feasts. They too have to be fulfilled in the correct order and correct season, keeping in mind that Spring always comes before Fall every year.

And if the last feast recorded in the NT having been fulfilled is the feast of Pentecost, where then are the remaining Fall feasts recorded in Acts that have to be fulfilled after the feast of Pentecost is fulfilled? Meaning if you find alleged evidence of that in the book of Acts or anywhere in the NT for that matter, you then have to prove that each remaining feast was fulfilled in it's correct order and that it was fulfilled in the Fall and that they were fulfilled, not before the feast of Pentecost was, but after it was. IOW, one can't use, for example, John 7 to prove any of that since that was meaning before the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled, not after.

 

[WPM]

Sometimes it takes using logical deducing of things. If Christ fulfilled the Spring feasts in their correct order and correct season, the same has to be true in regards to the Fall feasts. They too have to be fulfilled in the correct order and correct season, keeping in mind that Spring always comes before Fall every year.

And if the last feast recorded in the NT having been fulfilled is the feast of Pentecost, where then are the remaining Fall feasts recorded in Acts that have to be fulfilled after the feast of Pentecost is fulfilled? Meaning if you find alleged evidence of that in the book of Acts or anywhere in the NT for that matter, you then have to prove that each remaining feast was fulfilled in it's correct order and that it was fulfilled in the Fall and that they were fulfilled, not before the feast of Pentecost was, but after it was. IOW, one can't use, for example, John 7 to prove any of that since that was meaning before the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled, not after.

If this is all in historic order of events, then why is Yom Kippur (the day of Atonement) after Pentecost?

 

[IndianaRob]

If this is all in historic order of events, then why is Yom Kippur (the day of Atonement) after Pentecost?

Because the day of atonement comes when a person gets saved. It is followed by the feast of tabernacles when Christ indwells the believer.

 

[WPM]

Because the day of atonement comes when a person gets saved. It is followed by the feast of tabernacles when Christ indwells the believer.

Oh. That is called manipulating Scripture to support your error. You could literally make it say what you want. I see!

 

[rwb]

So are you saying the bare grain (seed) in the verses below are the combination of the soul and body?

If the grain (seed) is the body/soul then what is the body given to the grain (seed)?

Sorry for the confusion but I’m finding it very difficult to reconcile what your saying with these verses.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

No. I'm saying the bare grain is living soul a spiritual body without physical form. As Paul continues, he speaks of all the different kinds of flesh there is. Not all are the same flesh as the flesh of men (human beings). He says there is flesh of beasts, fishes and birds. And there are also celestial, that is above the sky, heavenly bodies. Also terrestrial, of the earth, earthy. And the glory of the celestial/heavenly bodies one, and the glory of the terrestrial another.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41 (KJV) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

It's easy to miss what Paul is saying. Because this is part of the answer Paul gives to the question asked, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" The body must die to know what shall be. After the natural physical body breathes its last, that raised up is not the same body sown. That which is quickened is the body that pleases God. After physical death our body returns to the earth, that which is quickened, revitalized to life again is but a bare seed (spiritual body without form) of what it shall one day be. Because God gives us a body that pleases Him and to every seed HIS OWN BODY.

1 Corinthians 15:36-38 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Maybe this passage will help? Notice what Christ says to the seven who wondered whose wife the woman would be in the resurrection, because all seven had her. This is not speaking of the bodily resurrection that shall be when the last trumpet sounds. Among the other things, Christ says in the resurrection we are "as the angels of God in heaven." That is not resurrection of our physical body because then we will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible human beings, not spirit beings which angels of God in heaven are. We know Christ is not speaking of our physical resurrection because Christ says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive in the resurrection, because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. It is through the resurrection of Christ, "the first resurrection" that these saints of Old will alive in heaven as living souls in spiritual body and without physical form.

Matthew 22:28-32 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

After Christ resurrected from the dead (first resurrection), before ascending to heaven He first went into the place of the dead saints of Old called the bosom of Abraham to set the captives free. They ascended to heaven with Christ the spiritual body of Christ, living souls that will not be bodily resurrected until the last trumpet sounds.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

When our body of flesh dies believers first transition to heaven a spiritual body, still living souls where we shall be until the last trumpet sound.

 

[The Light]

Exactly! Therefore, not saying anyone would. I merely used it as an example to show that if someone is rising from the dead, such as per the rapture event recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4, they, just like Christ did, would be putting on bodily immortality the moment they rise. But how could they if Pretrib has this event meaning at least 3.5 years earlier than that of the last trump recorded in 1 Corithians 15:52?

When the dead in Christ rise, pretrib, they get new bodies then. As would the alive that remained.

As I said, 1 Corinthians 15 is the rapture of Daniels people when many of the dead are raised...........sixth seal.

IOW, why are they even rising from the dead to begin with, prior to great tribulation according to Pretrib, if none of them are even putting on bodily immortality at the time?

They do get new bodies. You are drawing a wrong conclusion.

Therefore, there is no such event as Pretrib since there is nothing recorded in the Bible that can support that anyone puts on bodily immortality prior to great trib. 1 Corithians 15:52 certainly can't support that. Unless they put on bodily immortality at the time, their alleged rising before great trib begins is pointless. It makes no sense.

When the dead in Christ rise, they get new bodies as do the alive that remain.

When the Lord returns at the 6th seal, the dead and alive of the people of Daniel will get new bodies.

As to these trumpets you mentioned pertaining to feasts, all I can about that is this. I don't feel any of it supports Pretrib but I do believe that there are still the fall feasts to fulfill. The last recorded feast fulfilled appears to be the feast of Pentecost. It only stands to reason that just like the Spring feasts were fulfilled and in the correct order, the same has to be true in regards to the Fall feasts. In this regard you and I might have something somewhat in common, except I don't see any of it leading to Pretrib, though.

Please don't tell WPM that you understand this, or you will be disavowed.

What most people that understand the feasts don't understand is there is more feasts to be fulfilled than the fall feasts. The spring barley harvest is unfulfilled. This would be the dead in Christ.

The summer wheat harvest is unfulfilled. This would be the alive that remain of the Church. This will likely be fulfilled on the Feast of New Wine or Tu B'Av.

Then there is the 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. Likely happening on the Feast of New Oil

Then the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth (not those in the Nation of Israel) will likely be raptured at the Last Trump blown on the feast of trumpets.

So, unlike some of these Amils around here that are apparently clueless about how these Fall feasts still need to be fulfilled, I'm not clueless.

That did it, you are disavowed.

Which is good news. I'm glad you understand these things.

I might not have as much insight into that that someone else might have. But I do recognize that these Fall feasts are still relevant even in this day and time. But none of them will be involving animal sacrificing or anything like that. That would contradict that the feasts that Christ already fulfilled in their correct order and correct season, that none of them were fulfilled in that manner where it involved animal sacrificing, etc. The same has to be true in regards to the unfulfilled Fall feasts.

The fall feast of trumpet is for the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. I don't think the other two fall feasts will happen until a year later. It's nice to know you have some level of understanding. May you grow in wisdom, knowledge, strength and power.

 

[David in NJ]

1 Thessalonians 5:9​

I think there are many passages that relate God's Elect as described in the Matthew chapter will not suffer his wrath, great tribulation, upon the world .

I think tone is important to discern sincerity of heart in such matters.

I also don't think I can open a heart to God's promise. Only God by his will is able. We share his word here among one another while his grace is the light that leads to all understanding, or not.

God bless.

I think there are many passages that relate God's Elect as described in the Matthew chapter will not suffer his wrath

100% AGREE and ABSOLUTELY TRUE my Brother = 1 Thess 1:10 & 1 Thess 5:9

We are "to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

I think tone is important to discern sincerity of heart in such matters.

This can be a slippery slope away from God's words.

We are ONLY to believe God and NEVER men who speak from their 'heart'.

Matthew 4:4 - “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings. - Jeremiah 17:9

When men say 'pre-trib' rapture and you are unable to find God saying this = WARNING = somebody is not speaking Truth

So i encourage you to seek the Lord and in His Truth, because there does not exist in the entirety of scripture a single pre-trib rapture verse or passage.

EXAMPLE: Listen to JESUS and Him alone - John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

God Bless you and may you draw closer to JESUS and His words, for in them you will know TRUTH

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly! Therefore, not saying anyone would. I merely used it as an example to show that if someone is rising from the dead, such as per the rapture event recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4, they, just like Christ did, would be putting on bodily immortality the moment they rise. But how could they if Pretrib has this event meaning at least 3.5 years earlier than that of the last trump recorded in 1 Corithians 15:52? IOW, why are they even rising from the dead to begin with, prior to great tribulation according to Pretrib, if none of them are even putting on bodily immortality at the time?

Therefore, there is no such event as Pretrib since there is nothing recorded in the Bible that can support that anyone puts on bodily immortality prior to great trib. 1 Corithians 15:52 certainly can't support that. Unless they put on bodily immortality at the time, their alleged rising before great trib begins is pointless. It makes no sense.

As to these trumpets you mentioned pertaining to feasts, all I can about that is this. I don't feel any of it supports Pretrib but I do believe that there are still the fall feasts to fulfill. The last recorded feast fulfilled appears to be the feast of Pentecost. It only stands to reason that just like the Spring feasts were fulfilled and in the correct order, the same has to be true in regards to the Fall feasts. In this regard you and I might have something somewhat in common, except I don't see any of it leading to Pretrib, though.

So, unlike some of these Amils around here that are apparently clueless about how these Fall feasts still need to be fulfilled, I'm not clueless. I might not have as much insight into that that someone else might have. But I do recognize that these Fall feasts are still relevant even in this day and time. But none of them will be involving animal sacrificing or anything like that. That would contradict that the feasts that Christ already fulfilled in their correct order and correct season, that none of them were fulfilled in that manner where it involved animal sacrificing, etc. The same has to be true in regards to the unfulfilled Fall feasts.

Somebody gets it.