It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

Good Morning,

the 6th Seal is a PREVIEW of Revelation 19

Revelation is a SERIES of VISIONS given to the Apostle John that are:

#1- Actual = the 7 Churches / JESUS / Saints / Angels / Devil(s)

#2 - Inside LOOK in HEAVEN

#3 - Prophetic = things that MUST take place

#4 - COMPLETE = no new revelation beyond this BOOK = Revelation 22: 18-19

The sixth seal is not a preview of Revelation 19. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then the one year wrath of God begins. Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for Armageddon at the end of that year.

 

[David in NJ]

The sixth seal is not a preview of Revelation 19. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then the one year wrath of God begins. Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for Armageddon at the end of that year.

The 6th SEAL is a VISION of JESUS Coming that is REPEATED in Rev ch19

You stumble at the word because of 'respect of persons' and therefore your vision is BLURRED

JESUS told you this but you have not yet understood: Luke 8:16-18

“No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.
Therefore take heed how you hear.
For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.”

 

[David in NJ]

You are one of the few that I have come across that realizes that Jesus comes for the Jews. You also believe in a pretrib rapture. That's two raptures.

The days of Noah is a picture of the rapture of the Church. Noah is in the ark before the flood.

The days of Lot is a picture of the harvest of the Jews. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest, the day of the Lord will begin. The day of the Lord is one year.

The fig tree has two harvests, FACT. There are two raptures.

The fig tree has two harvests

The natural fig Tree has two harvests because there are Two Covenants and thus TWO Groups that will RISE from the Graves in ONE RESURRECTION.

The TREE of LIFE is ONE TREE where Two Groups, Jew & Gentile, are SAVED in ONE TREE = Adonai YAHshua HaMashiach

We are not SAVED in the fig tree! We are SAVED in the TREE of LIFE

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[IndianaRob]

After telling us our natural body will die and be raised a spiritual body, Paul then addresses the resurrection of the dead this discussion specifically questioned.

Paul didn’t say our natural body will die and be raised a spiritual body, you added that part.

Paul says IT(the soul) is given a natural body and when that natural body dies, IT (the soul) will be raised a spiritual body.

Look you guys are just flat out wrong and your hanging on to baggage you’ve been taught in Churchianity.

The brainwashing is so bad that you guys can’t even read passages like this objectively for what it ACTUALLY says.

 

[WPM]

It seems to be a complete act of futility to address their opinions!

So true! They cannot engage because what they espouse is based on twisting Scripture and fictitious theories.

 

[The Light]

The natural fig Tree has two harvests because there are Two Covenants and thus TWO Groups that will RISE from the Graves in ONE RESURRECTION.

The TREE of LIFE is ONE TREE where Two Groups, Jew & Gentile, are SAVED in ONE TREE = Adonai YAHshua HaMashiach

We are not SAVED in the fig tree! We are SAVED in the TREE of LIFE

First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

He comes for the Church first.

Then there are 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribess

Then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal.

Two harvests.....two raptures

Then the Lord comes with the armies of heaven like a thief in the night. Armageddon

 

[David in NJ]

The sixth seal is not a preview of Revelation 19. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then the one year wrath of God begins. Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for Armageddon at the end of that year.

Again, you are arguing against "It is written"

​

Strong's Lexicon [ This is the ] revelation Ἀποκάλυψις (Apokalypsis) Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Strong's Greek 602: An unveiling, uncovering, revealing, revelation. From apokalupto; disclosure. The LORD teaches in symbolism/parables/visions/dreams/prophecy and direct statements of fact. A "revealing" can come from any of the above and all of the above. the Revelation of the LORD Jesus Christ is interwoven with symbolism/visions/prophecy and statements of fact. You hold to a teaching from men that states the "revealing" of the 6th Seal MUST be actuated before the remaining "revealings". Revelation is not dictated as such. Revelation is a perpetual REVEALING that REPEATS and CULMINATES with the FINAL REVEALING. EXAMPLE: 7 Churches with 7 Messages that speaks for ALL churches throughout world history along with the preaching of the Gospel until the END.

 

[rwb]

Paul didn’t say our natural body will die and be raised a spiritual body, you added that part.

Paul says IT(the soul) is given a natural body and when that natural body dies, IT (the soul) will be raised a spiritual body.

Look you guys are just flat out wrong and your hanging on to baggage you’ve been taught in Churchianity.

The brainwashing is so bad that you guys can’t even read passages like this objectively for what it ACTUALLY says.

I don't disagree! But that which is raised (not resurrected from the dead) still being a living soul is a spiritual body, not the physical body that shall not be RESURRECTED immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[David in NJ]

I don't disagree! But that which is raised (not resurrected from the dead) still being a living soul is a spiritual body, not the physical body that shall not be RESURRECTED immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

What comes out of the Graves at the Resurrection?

CLUE #1 : "that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

CLUE #2: "And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

 

[David in NJ]

I don't disagree! But that which is raised (not resurrected from the dead) still being a living soul is a spiritual body, not the physical body that shall not be RESURRECTED immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

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[rwb]

What comes out of the Graves at he Resurrection?

CLUE: "that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

Since that which comes out of the graves is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible it can only be flesh, as from the beginning when God took dust of the earth to make man.

OTOH, the spirit (breath of life; mind, heart, will, emotions) that gives our mortal body physical life, having been born again from above, possesses the eternal life-giving Spirit from Christ. And when our spirit is endowed with the Holy Spirit, we, as spiritual body of Christ, HAVE, not shall HAVE eternal, everlasting life through Him. That's why Paul says when our natural body dies, we as spiritual body, as living souls are raised to heaven.

 

[WPM]

First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

He comes for the Church first.

Then there are 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribess

Then they that are Christs at His coming at the 6th seal.

Two harvests.....two raptures

Then the Lord comes with the armies of heaven like a thief in the night. Armageddon

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
2. Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
3. Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?
4. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?

 

[WPM]

You are one of the few that I have come across that realizes that Jesus comes for the Jews. You also believe in a pretrib rapture. That's two raptures.

The days of Noah is a picture of the rapture of the Church. Noah is in the ark before the flood.

The days of Lot is a picture of the harvest of the Jews. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest, the day of the Lord will begin. The day of the Lord is one year.

The fig tree has two harvests, FACT. There are two raptures.

Jesus simply mentions these two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears.

All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

2 Peter 2:5-6 referring to the same two destructive days as Christ did in Luke 17, only employing Sodom’s sister city Gomorrah, confirms that God “spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly”

Despite their undoubted divergent features, both of these two familiar stories, when meticulously compared and contrasted, share certain important similarities and identical characteristics, which the eschatology student should be careful to note. None more so than the glorious total deliverance of the entire elect from the destruction that was to come and the complete, immediate and utter destruction of all the wicked – none of which evidently survived. We can therefore learn much about the nature and timing of the awful final judgment that is coming and how God distinctly and uniquely deals with the wicked and the righteous. In employing these two stories, Christ presents them as a lucid example of how things will occur on the day of His coming. Hence, to grasp the import of this reading is to see a vivid preview of the Second Advent.

In both Noah and Lot’s days the righteous and wicked were separated for the undoubted purpose of immediate and total destruction of the wicked. Matthew 24:40 and Luke 17:31-36 simply reveal the moment of that final separation which is in complete agreement with the two other days of absolute destruction – there had to be a specific moment in which the day of redemption closed in the two previous stories.

 

[Psalm 139]

I hope you're not saying this is all you have to support your view? If so, I don't find it very convincing since Matthew 24 does not teach pre-trib. Matthew 24:29-31 alone disproves that. So, are you planning to show how exactly you think Matthew 24 supports pre-trib? I'm not just going to take your word for it.

That's fine.

God bless.

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't disagree! But that which is raised (not resurrected from the dead) still being a living soul is a spiritual body, not the physical body that shall not be RESURRECTED immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

“But that which is raised (not resurrected from the dead) still being a living soul is a spiritual body”

I don’t know what you mean by this. Can you show me the verse where you get the soul is a spiritual body.

 

[David in NJ]

That's fine.

God bless.

Brother,

The LORD Jesus Christ says it it is important and necessary for you to to show forth a 'pre-trib' rapture from Matthew chapter 24.

Matt 5:41 - "And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you,"

1 Peter 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience,

If pre-trib rapture is in Matthew chapter 24, then by the Will of God please post what you SEE!

If, it is there, all will be Blessed and thus fulfill the Scripture which says: "that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed."

SHALOM

 

[The Light]

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

1. Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
2. Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[The Light]

Jesus simply mentions these two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

Most of those that understand there will be a rapture before the tribulation don't understand that there are two raputres.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?

None.

How many wicked survived in Sodom?

None.

HOW MANY WICKED ARE GOING TO SURVIVE ARMAGEDDON?

In both Noah and Lot’s days the righteous and wicked were separated for the undoubted purpose of immediate and total destruction of the wicked. Matthew 24:40 and Luke 17:31-36 simply reveal the moment of that final separation which is in complete agreement with the two other days of absolute destruction – there had to be a specific moment in which the day of redemption closed in the two previous stories.

The Lord comes as a thief in the night. There will be sudden destruction. How is it that you do not understand these things?

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 

[Davidpt]

Most of those that understand there will be a rapture before the tribulation don't understand that there are two raputres.

Maybe there are 2 last trumps as well. Right? Keeping in mind that the last trump recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is obviously the same trump recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. After all, both accounts involve someone literally bodily rising from the dead. It makes no sense to bodily rise from the dead unless one is going to be putting on bodily immortality at the time. 1 Corinthians 15:52 makes it crystal,clear that that happens at the last trump.

Is one going to argue, for example, when Christ bodily rose from the dead, that He did not put on bodily immortality at the time but had to wait until sometime later to do that? The point being, if the trumpet recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is not meaning the last trumpet recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:52, and that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 involves someone bodily rising from te dead, this would mean they are bodily rising in vain if it is not until 3.5 years later or more when they finally get around to putting on bodily immortality.

If a position, such as Pretrib, leads to nonsense like this, shouldn't the nonsense it leads to be enough alone to convince Pretribbers that Pretrib can't be Biblical? Why don't Pretribbers ever factor in things like that before insisting Pretrib is Biblical, some of the nonsense it leads to if Pretrib is true?

 

[WPM]

Most of those that understand there will be a rapture before the tribulation don't understand that there are two raputres.

None.

None.

HOW MANY WICKED ARE GOING TO SURVIVE ARMAGEDDON?

The Lord comes as a thief in the night. There will be sudden destruction. How is it that you do not understand these things?

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

They were all indeed destroyed. That is what Jesus said. He then compares these two days to His one final future climatic return. Read what He says. This proves all the wicked are destroyed when He returns. There is no one to populate your future trib or a future millennium. All the wicked, all mortals, are gone!

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then explains of a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

Revelation 16:15-21: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done (or gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

How can anyone survive this? This is the end of the world! When Christ returns, He shakes the hole of creation and destroys all the wicked. The universe is convulsing in this narrative as God calls time on corruption and rebellion. This is not some mere localized event. It is global! The “great earthquake” described is so colossal that “the cities of the nations fell” and “every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.” The whole earth is shaken. This corruptible earth is having seizures before it is transformed.