It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

Now you are on the STRAIGHT and NARROW PATH which leads to LIFE

DO NOT deviate to the left or the right = STAY on the PATH of TRUTH

are you trying to say you agree??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[The Light]

This wrong belief is proved to be in error, by the other Prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, The Lord will not be seen of that Day: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, +

In Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians, he prophesies about two separate appearances of Jesus.
First, His coming in 'blazing fire', when He will reveal Himself only to His righteous people. He destroys the nations and entities who 'conspire to attack Israel', in fulfilment of Psalm 83, Revelation 6:12-17 and many other prophecies.
His righteous Christian peoples will go to live in the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
Then, some years after that devastating and shocking event, the Anti-Christ will come to power and 'enthrone himself in the Temple', this commences the Great Tribulation and 1260 days later, Jesus Returns to live once again on earth and reign as King over the world.

My post proves that Jesus will come at the 6th seal. You can't disprove that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Close, but not exactly.

Close - because the sixth seal event precedes Jesus's coming down to earth - by 45 days.

The sixth seal event is first part of Matthew 24:30 - i.e. the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Revelation 6:12-14]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [Revelation 6:15-17]

and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Revelation 19:11-21]

There is no indication of any length of time, including 45 days, occurring between Matthew 24 verses 30 and 31. If that was the case then Jesus would have indicated as such, but He did not. You forgot to look at the previous verses for context.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Once Jesus comes, He will come quickly like how lightning flashes from the east to the west. There will be no delay, like 45 days. That contradicts what He had just said previously. Also, it contradicts the fact that He is coming unexpectedly as a thief in the night and His coming will be accompanied by "sudden destruction" from which His enemies "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). If there is a 45 day delay between the time when the sign appears that He is coming and when He has arrived then that would contradict all the scriptures saying He is coming unexpectedly like a thief in the night and there would be nothing sudden about the destruction that occurs when He comes if there was a 45 day delay. You need to take ALL of scripture into account when you consider these things.

Also, you're missing that the sign of the Son of man in heaven is the Son of man, Jesus, Himself. Jesus Himself is the sign. The disciples asked what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age (Matt 24:3). There would be no sign to indicate ahead of time the day or hour He was coming because no one knows the day of hour of His coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). So, Jesus Himself is the sign of His coming and the end of the age. No one will know He's coming until they see Him coming. By then it will be too late for anyone to repent because everything will happen quickly at that point like lightning flashes from the east to the west.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

are you trying to say you agree??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Only up to that point he agrees, and even I agree, but he hasn't seen your next post yet where you're going to say there's still another year of stuff that happens after that, which I'm sure he will not agree with.

 

[The Light]

This is all happening well into the wrath part of the 7 yr gt.

In the previous post I made to you, it can be determined that the Great Tribulation is over and then immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus comes. Then wrath BEGINS

Placing the second coming at the end of the 7 yr gt.

The second coming does occur immediately after the great tribulation of those days..................at the 6th seal. The second coming of Jesus is NOT when the armies of Heaven in Revelation 19 occurs. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is why the is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal. Some of these came out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Conclusion:
Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation
There is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 some of who came out the great tribulation.
The Wrath of God has not begun yet. The Wrath of God is the one year day of the Lord.
Wrath is the 7th seal and cannot begin until the 7th seal is opened.

The great tribulation and the wrath of God do not happen in the same timeframe. I don't care how many times you hear on TV that the tribulation and wrath are the same....................THEY ARE NOT.

One more post.

 

[IndianaRob]

Did you not read the preceding verses where Paul talks about the body? That establishes the context of those verses.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, look at what Paul was saying before he started talking about being changed and putting on incorruption and immortality. Can you see in verse 42 where Paul refers to the resurrection of the dead and says "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption". We know he's talking about the body there because in verse 44 he said "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body". He said the natural body we have now, which he said is "sown in corruption" , "sown in dishonour" and "sown in weakness", will be "raised in corruption", "raised in glory" and "raised in power". And he called the natural body "earthy" and the spiritual body we'll have in the future "heavenly". So, when he talks about us all being changed at the last trumpet and putting on incorruption and immortality, it should be obvious that he's talking about bodies that are "sown in corruption" and "raised in incorruption".

I’m sorry I was multitasking, I should’ve said where do any of those verses say all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at the same time.

 

[The Light]

Only up to that point he agrees, and even I agree, but he hasn't seen your next post yet where you're going to say there's still another year of stuff that happens after that, which I'm sure he will not agree with.

There has to be another year plus. The 7th seal containing wrath has not opened yet,

 

[WPM]

My post proves that Jesus will come at the 6th seal. You can't disprove that.

Most agree. But these are recaps. This is the end. There is no trib after that. The 7th seal is silence in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m sorry I was multitasking, I should’ve said where do any of those verses say all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at the same time.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It says we will all be changed at the sound of the last trumpet. It should be obvious that means we will all be changed at the same time. It's not as if the last trumpet will sound more than once.

Notice that the dead are raised/resurrected at that point. If you go back to what Paul said earlier, you can see they are all resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[David in NJ]

are you trying to say you agree??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

i AGREE with all of your post #777

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There has to be another year plus. The 7th seal containing wrath has not opened yet,

You're missing the parallels in the book of Revelation. There is no reason to think that the wrath of the Lamb will take a whole year to complete. The 7th seal does not contain the 7 trumpets like you believe and the 7 vials don't all follow the 7th trumpet like you believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So, you expect us to believe that the vengeance Jesus will take "on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" will take a whole year. Why would that be the case? It makes no sense. Especially in light of what Paul said here:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Jesus is coming unexpectedly as a thief in the night and will then bring "sudden destruction" down on His enemies from which "they shall not escape". There's nothing sudden about your understanding of His wrath. If it takes a whole year for His wrath to come down, there's nothing sudden about that.

 

[IndianaRob]

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It says we will all be changed at the sound of the last trumpet. It should be obvious that means we will all be changed at the same time. It's not as if the last trumpet will sound more than once.

Notice that the dead are raised/resurrected at that point. If you go back to what Paul said earlier, you can see they are all resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You are correct those verses don’t say anything about a group resurrection and since you don’t understand the resurrection your ADDING spin to those verses.

 

[Psalm 139]

Can you support that view with scripture? So far, I have not seen any pretrib come anywhere near supporting that view with scripture. You're welcome to try.

Why, thank you.
I think Matthew 24 will suffice to encapsulate my view.

Many Christians have suffered persecution for the past almost 2,000 years, so why would that suddenly end before Jesus returns at the end of the age?

 

[Douggg]

There is no indication of any length of time, including 45 days, occurring between Matthew 24 verses 30 and 31. If that was the case then Jesus would have indicated as such, but He did not.

No not directly. The 45 days is the time between the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel 12:11-12 as marked from the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

During the 45 days the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16 to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army.

In Revelation 19, Jesus destroys those armies.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

--------------------------------------

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The appearance of the Son of man in heaven, at the sixth seal event, will be something that will happen without expectation by them on earth at that time - who the armies from the north, south, and east will actually being engaged in an attack on the beast-king (king of the west) in Daniel 11:40-45, to dethrone him.

 

[The Light]

Rev 15 starts with wrath poured out but is in no way the second coming at the end of the 7yr gt.
Explain all this;
Rev16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This is all happening well into the wrath part of the 7 yr gt.
Placing the second coming at the end of the 7 yr gt.

Now let's look at Rev 6 thru Rev 11. You need to understand what you are reading.

As I said, the seals happen in order 1 thru 7.
Revelation 6 contains the 1st 6 seals; the great tribulation is the 5th seal and Jesus comes at the 6th seal.........immediately after the tribulation
Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins. Then we go through the trumpets of wrath.
Jesus returns for Armageddon and then sets up His kingdom on earth

So after reading Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11. You have the complete story. Armageddon is over and Christ Has set up His millennial kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The story is over. We are in the millennial kingdom in Revelation 11.

You can throw away Revelation 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16. You don't need them. You already have the story.

Do you want some more information about the story you already have? Then read Revelation 12. It begins before the story you already have and takes you to the point of great tribulation when the dragon goes after the seed of the woman because he can't get to the woman.

Do you want some more information about the story you already have? Read Revelation 13 and 14. These events happen during the 1st 6 seals, which is the time of the tribulation. Here is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Do you want more information about what is happening in Revelation 7 and those that come out of great tribulation. Read Revelation 15

Do you want more information about the 7th seal wrath of God. Read Revelation 16.

You get two views of the same story.

Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, tell you the story.

Revelation 13, 14, 15, and 16 gives you more information of what occurs in that story.

Rev 12 gives you a little more information.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are correct those verses don’t say anything about a group resurrection

That isn't what I said, so why are you acting as if I said that?

and since you don’t understand the resurrection your ADDING spin to those verses.

Don't just say things like this. Prove it. You apparently think the last trumpet sounds over and over again after each believer dies? Or what? Don't make claims that you can't back up. Your opinions on their own mean nothing without scriptural support. Show exactly how the text fits your doctrine the same way I did.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why, thank you.
I think Matthew 24 will suffice to encapsulate my view.

I hope you're not saying this is all you have to support your view? If so, I don't find it very convincing since Matthew 24 does not teach pre-trib. Matthew 24:29-31 alone disproves that. So, are you planning to show how exactly you think Matthew 24 supports pre-trib? I'm not just going to take your word for it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No not directly. The 45 days is the time between the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel 12:11-12 as marked from the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

During the 45 days the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16 to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army.

In Revelation 19, Jesus destroys those armies.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

--------------------------------------

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The appearance of the Son of man in heaven, at the sixth seal event, will be something that will happen without expectation by them on earth at that time - who the armies from the north, south, and east will actually being engaged in an attack on the beast-king (king of the west) in Daniel 11:40-45, to dethrone him.

I'm not sure why I bother with you. All you do is give your understanding of things, but you don't specifically address what others say at all. So, why should I specifically address what you're saying? I don't think I'll bother this time since it's obviously a waste of time since you won't reciprocate.

 

[IndianaRob]

Don't just say things like this. Prove it. You apparently think the last trumpet sounds over and over again after each believer dies? Or what? Don't make claims that you can't back up. Your opinions on their own mean nothing without scriptural support. Show exactly how the text fits your doctrine the same way I did.

We’ve already discussed this on another thread and you did the same thing in that you’re doing here.

BARE GRAIN is not the body, BARE GRAIN is the soul.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the soul) is sown in corruption (the body); it is raised in incorruption:

But you prefer:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption (the body); it is raised in incorruption:

 

[The Light]

No offense but I think you got off by making a major division in the GT as " wrath" vs "trib".
I think that led you into also dividing the Lot and Noah gatherings into two separate gatherings, and placing the white horses in a mid trib setting (postrib/prewrath setting).

It's ok if we don't agree. Most of pretrib TV world would agree with you. They think that tribulation and wrath are the same thing.

They are not. The Great Tribulation of those days is what the Dragon will bring on believers if they don't take the mark. Wrath is the Day of the Lord, the one year day of His wrath. It is the 7th seal.

Just read the scriptures. We have a timestamp with the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We can determine that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. We can determine that the tribulation is over. And we can tell that the wrath of God is about to begin.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?