It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rebuilder 454]

WHAT!!! - no 'good morning' from you my Brother?
==============================================================================

Good Morning @rebuilder 454

Matt 24:38-39
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

What is there here that is not visible to our EYES?

Noah and family were under constant threat and tribulation from the world at that time.
GOD Delivered them from HIS WRATH = Global FLOOD is the WRATH of GOD

Lol.
Yes good morning to you also my brother.

No gathering of Lot or Noah postrib.
Zero.
In fact Noah is taken over a mile into the sky at the start of the trib. Then Noah returns after the trib FROM THE HEAVENS.

Beautiful depiction of the pretrib rapture.
Can not fit the postrib model.
One taken and one left behind does not fit the postrib model because they are gathered pre-flood and left behind pre-flood.
Noah Rising over a mile into the heavens during the tribulation does not fit in any way shape or form the postribber model.
Noah returning from the heavens after the tribulation in no way depicts a after the tribulation Gathering.
Lot in the setting of normal life and commerce is removed or gathered before the tribulation. There is nothing of a lot being gathered after the tribulation.

 

[David in NJ]

"The Harvest is the Harvest."



Doesnt surprise me but I dint pull that one from scripture, just from earth experiences. Everything on earth is types and shadows of Heaven. Right now we're seeing how not to do it, later in the Millenium He shows us for 1000 years how it was supposed to be!



Right, one harvest for one crop. Which is what the Lords earth crop is and will be. Even if He takes some out in a pretrib rapture, which might or might not be the biggest harvest it could be after the Great Trib and Millenium. Think about it, starting at the beginning of the 1000 yr Millenium, there wont be any abortions. There wont be no wars. For 1000 years! And humans will continue to be born all during that 1000 years...and we breed like rabbits! So what will the world population be on earth then?

There will be on earth during the Millenium both resurrection saints that already have their spiritual bodies, and there will be normal humans being born. This last harvest could indeed be the biggest harvest of them all (of the one). because the normal humans being born and growing up during the Millenium still have the adamic nature and will have to choose, and become born again during that time. I'm guessing that some may choose death, but the lions share will be saved, so the last and biggest harves of the the earth's harvest. ??

Right, one harvest for one crop.

GOOD - Now, let us, stay on the Straight Path of Scripture as we walk together in Him: Amos 3:3
"How can two walk together unless they agree?"

You and i have a CLEAR Path laid out for us in His Word = We can walk this Path together and AGREE on it = Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Two things the Lord says here to us in Matt 4:4
1 every word + 2 from the Mouth of God = 3/Elohim

JESUS says:
#1 - only One Harvest that Began when "the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us"

#2 - the 'One Harvest' is not many harvests but MANY Souls being SAVED Up to the END

#3 - One Harvest = Many Souls Saved = Culminates to the END, at HIS SECOND COMING

P.S. - You are correct to say we receive "immortal glorified bodies" at the Resurrection and followed by the Rapture = 1 Thess 4:13-18 = 1 Corinthians chapter 15

 

[rebuilder 454]

WHAT!!! - no 'good morning' from you my Brother?
==============================================================================

Good Morning @rebuilder 454

Matt 24:38-39
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

What is there here that is not visible to our EYES?

Noah and family were under constant threat and tribulation from the world at that time.
GOD Delivered them from HIS WRATH = Global FLOOD is the WRATH of GOD

The Bible says, normal life and commerce at the pretrib rapture of Noah gathered pretrib.
In your model of post flood gathering, there is no normal life OR COMMERCE.

 

[David in NJ]

The Bible says, normal life and commerce at the pretrib rapture of Noah gathered pretrib.
In your model of post flood gathering, there is no normal life OR COMMERCE.

Blessing + Warning = TRUTH

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. = BLESSING
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. = WARNING

Choose wisely my Brother

 

[WPM]

Blessing + Warning = TRUTH

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. = BLESSING
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. = WARNING

Choose wisely my Brother

Why do you have to talk like that? Can you not simply address the biblical issues? This is the way online Pretribbers typically communicate. You are better than that!

 

[David in NJ]

Why do you have to talk like that? Can you not simply address the biblical issues? This is the way online Pretribbers typically communicate. You are better than that!

Good Morning

Is speaking the words of our Heavenly FATHER a 'bad' thing to do???
i would rather be BOTH encouraged and warned by my Heavenly FATHER that i may have the "fear of God in my heart".

Is this a 'proud' approach by the Apostle Paul??? = Ephesians 5:19
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God.

God's words are a true melody to our hearts my Brother = let's sing together with the 'lyrics' given to us by God

the man-made doctrine of pre-trib hates the melody of the Holy Scriptures

 

[David in NJ]

Why do you have to talk like that? Can you not simply address the biblical issues? This is the way online Pretribbers typically communicate. You are better than that!

the Holy Spirit wants me to share this with you:

Proverbs 30:5-6 is Before me everytime i open up the scriptures = EVERYTIME

It is a GREAT Blessing to fear God in this manner = thy word is a shield to those who trust in it

a God Given 'SHIELD' of Protection!!!

i will take that Blessing everyday = 24/7

and, lest i become convinced in my own understanding and tempted to worship the 'golden calf' of pre-trib,
i am BLESSED by His WARNING
"DO NOT add to His words lest HE rebuke me and i be found a liar!!!

i hope this gives clarity as to why i posted Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[MA2444]

The harvests do definately illustrate end times
You are correct.
Wheat harvest
Barley harvest
Fruit harvest.

Harvest can be broken into three or four parts, depending on how you look at it. You have the first fruits, then the main Harvest, then the corners, and then The Gleaners. This is all depicted in the Book of Ruth. Note that Naomi does not play a role in The Harvest but a indirect role. This is because Ruth who is in the main Harvest and in the Gleaner Harvest is directly depicted in the grain Harvest. The Jew, Naomi, would be reserved and depicted in the Fruit Harvest. Note that Boaz marries Ruth and not Naomi. But Naomi is given the child of Boaz and Ruth to nurse it. That is depicted as the two covenants becoming one. All of this goes to the depiction of the two Covenants and what we learn from Romans 9,10 and 11, Is that God has two wives.
He has the Gentile bride ,and he has the Wayward wife which is the Jew.
And all of that goes to the purpose of the tribulation.
it is called Jacob's trouble or you could say Israel's trouble. The tribulation is strictly for the Jewish people.
The times of the Gentile has ended at the rapture.
Those Left Behind are immediately martyred. And that goes to the fact that the time of the Gentile must end for the tribulation.
Which is to plow up the Jew , and get them ready for their Gathering ,or Rapture, in Revelation 14 which is about mid-trib in the 7-year tribulation.

Wow Brother, I've never unpacked the love story in that book like you have but it seems you have very well! I can see how it's relevant too. I'ma need to chew on that some more. . I think the book of Ruth is coming up soon in my yearly reading of scripture. I'm in the tail end of Jerimiah right now.

 

[rwb]

How are those that are saved being deceived by Satan?

Joel Osteen is a deceiver along with all the others of that, I’ll say sect, that preaches the prosperity “gospel”.

There are saved people, but very unlearned, that are being deceived by those deceivers.

There are many saved people on this forum that Satan is deceiving with false doctrines. Many here would say that I’m one of the deceived.

This is the make-up of the church (small c) as it exists on earth. Within this small c church is also The Church (capital C) who are spiritually in the Kingdom of God through Christ's Spirit in us. Knowing there are mere 'professors' of Christ as well as 'possessors' of Christ together now is why we are instructed to KNOW the Scriptures, and to put on the whole armour of Christ. Just because some claim to be saved does not mean they are!

 

[MA2444]

GOOD - Now, let us, stay on the Straight Path of Scripture as we walk together in Him: Amos 3:3
"How can two walk together unless they agree?"

You and i have a CLEAR Path laid out for us in His Word = We can walk this Path together and AGREE on it = Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Two things the Lord says here to us in Matt 4:4
1 every word + 2 from the Mouth of God = 3/Elohim

JESUS says:
#1 - only One Harvest that Began when "the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us"

#2 - the 'One Harvest' is not many harvests but MANY Souls being SAVED Up to the END

#3 - One Harvest = Many Souls Saved = Culminates to the END, at HIS SECOND COMING

P.S. - You are correct to say we receive "immortal glorified bodies" at the Resurrection and followed by the Rapture = 1 Thess 4:13-18 = 1 Corinthians chapter 15

We're on the same page Brother.

 

[MA2444]

The church age also closes at the rapture along with the age of the Gentiles. Then it is a short age of Judgment and mostly all about His nation of Israel, to bring them to a saving knowledge of our Messiah, Jeus Christ.

Some wont believe until theyre in the foxhole!

 

[WPM]

Good Morning

Is speaking the words of our Heavenly FATHER a 'bad' thing to do???
i would rather be BOTH encouraged and warned by my Heavenly FATHER that i may have the "fear of God in my heart".

Is this a 'proud' approach by the Apostle Paul??? = Ephesians 5:19
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God.

God's words are a true melody to our hearts my Brother = let's sing together with the 'lyrics' given to us by God

the man-made doctrine of pre-trib hates the melody of the Holy Scriptures

Bro, i hate Pretribbers talking like this. I hate Posttribbers talking like this. It comes across as prideful. It is unneeded. It does not produce healthy debate. Leave that for the Pretribbers. It pushes people away from their error.

 

[David in NJ]

We're on the same page Brother.

Sometimes, on these forums, our communicative process can be lacking where we are both saying the same thing but not seeing it the same way.

Forgive me should my thoughts run ahead of my words and there be some misunderstanding.

i remember from college/business classes this principal: K.I.S.S.

Keep
It
Simple
Saints

Of course you KNOW the professor did not say 'saints'!!!

 

[David in NJ]

Bro, i hate Pretribbers talking like this. I hate Posttribbers talking like this. It comes across as prideful. It is unneeded. It does not produce healthy debate. Leave that for the Pretribbers. It pushes people away from their error.

Well i need your help on this.
Please point to that which offends you and comes across as prideful.

IMPORTANT: the things i post to you i am posting to myself as well, for we are on level Ground at the foot of the Cross

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol.
Yes good morning to you also my brother.

No gathering of Lot or Noah postrib.
Zero.
In fact Noah is taken over a mile into the sky at the start of the trib. Then Noah returns after the trib FROM THE HEAVENS.

LOL. This is ridiculous. Noah did not return from the heavens. You just make things up. You also never acknowledge what happened to all unbelievers after Noah was in the ark. They were all killed without exception. Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:39). You don't acknowledge the clear teaching that those who are left behind are all killed.

One taken and one left behind does not fit the postrib model because they are gathered pre-flood and left behind pre-flood.

Everyone believes this. You are really talking pre-wrath and post-wrath here. No one tries to say that we will be raptured after the wrath that will come down when Jesus returns and the rapture occurs. But, what you are not acknowledging is that none of them left behind will survive His wrath. On the same day that Noah entered the ark, the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers who were left out of the ark. On the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, the fire came down and destroyed all who were left behind in Sodom. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:30).

Noah Rising over a mile into the heavens during the tribulation does not fit in any way shape or form the postribber model.
Noah returning from the heavens after the tribulation in no way depicts a after the tribulation Gathering.
Lot in the setting of normal life and commerce is removed or gathered before the tribulation. There is nothing of a lot being gathered after the tribulation.

This is complete nonsense. You are taking about pre-wrath and post-wrath. Everyone is pre-wrath in terms of being caught up before the wrath comes down on the earth when the rapture occurs. How do you define "the tribulation"? How long does it last? How many unbelievers survive it? You need to address these questions instead of being so vague all the time. We're all pre-wrath in the sense that you are talking about it.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL. This is ridiculous. Noah did not return from the heavens. You just make things up. You also never acknowledge what happened to all unbelievers after Noah was in the ark. They were all killed without exception. Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:39). You don't acknowledge the clear teaching that those who are left behind are all killed.


Everyone believes this. You are really talking pre-wrath and post-wrath here. No one tries to say that we will be raptured after the wrath that will come down when Jesus returns and the rapture occurs. But, what you are not acknowledging is that none of them left behind will survive His wrath. On the same day that Noah entered the ark, the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers who were left out of the ark. On the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, the fire came down and destroyed all who were left behind in Sodom. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:30).


This is complete nonsense. You are taking about pre-wrath and post-wrath. Everyone is pre-wrath in terms of being caught up before the wrath comes down on the earth when the rapture occurs. How do you define "the tribulation"? How long does it last? How many unbelievers survive it? You need to address these questions instead of being so vague all the time. We're all pre-wrath in the sense that you are talking about it.

BINGO

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible says, normal life and commerce at the pretrib rapture of Noah gathered pretrib.
In your model of post flood gathering, there is no normal life OR COMMERCE.

You completely ignore what Jesus indicated will happen to those who are left. To think that those who are left will return to normal life is beyond ludicrous. Just look at what Jesus actually taught will happen to those who are left behind.

He starts out by comparing what will happen on the day of His coming to what happened on the day Noah entered the ark and the day Lot went out of Sodom.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

He specifically pointed out how the flood "destroyed them all" and how the fire that came down on Sodom "destroyed them all" and then said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.". That means He was saying that He will destroy them all (all unbelievers) when He comes just as the flood "destroyed them all" and the fire on Sodom "destroyed them all".

Then He tells people to remember what happened to Lot's wife as an example of what will happen to those who are too attached to their lives in this world on the day He returns.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Anyone who cares more about their temporary lives on this earth than about being willing to sacrifice their lives for God will be killed when Jesus comes.

Then Jesus said this:

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

So, keeping in mind what He had just previously said it shouldn't be hard to see that the ones taken will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air and the ones left behind will be killed just as Noah and Lot and their families were brought to safety in both of those scenarios while everyone else was killed in both scenarios.

 

[WPM]

Well i need your help on this.
Please point to that which offends you and comes across as prideful.

IMPORTANT: the things i post to you i am posting to myself as well, for we are on level Ground at the foot of the Cross

These warnings to posters are a Pretrib norm. They sound prideful.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

....and the dead in Christ will rise first.
This refers to Jesus bringing back to life the GT martyrs. As per Rev 20:4.
It does not say 'all' the dead in Christ; and Rev 20:5 specifically states that the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

All the fanciful notions of people who entertain ideas of a general resurrection and the weird idea of 'glorified bodies', are wrong and cannot happen.

You continue to ignore what Paul taught in this passage:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality and then next in order is ALL who are Christ's at His second coming. You blatantly contradict what Paul taught. You make the rest of scripture line up with your understanding of Revelation 20 instead of letting clear, straightforward scripture like this help you interpret Revelation 20.

 

[Keraz]

You continue to ignore what Paul taught in this passage:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality and then next in order is ALL who are Christ's at His second coming. You blatantly contradict what Paul taught. You make the rest of scripture line up with your understanding of Revelation 20 instead of letting clear, straightforward scripture like this help you interpret Revelation 20.

Are you incapable of seeing and understanding that what Paul Prophesied in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is for after the Millennium? Only then is Death no more, Revelation 21:4
Of course you have the weird belief of AMill. So; the truth of where Pauls Prophecy fits, is another nail in the coffin of the AMill theory.
Proved by Rev 20:4-6, where it is clearly stated that only those martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year period of 'beast' world control, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.

in Christ all shall be made alive.
This WILL happen, as Paul says: In their correct order - Christ the firstfruit, then the GT martyrs, then, after the thousand years; at the GWT Judgment; All those who kept their faith until death, including from the Patriarchs, to Moses, David, Stephen, Billy Graham, etc, ALL whose Names are Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and will go with God into Eternity.