It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rwb]

This is the issue: WHEN will all be made alive. That is; will receive immortality?
First is Christ, then those who are in Christ at His coming. Thinking that ALL will be immortalized at His Return, is wrong as we are clearly told that only the GT martyrs are raised back to life at that time. Revelation 20:4

It's not only the tribulation saints of Rev 20:4 that are resurrected immortal & incorruptible at Christ's coming. It is ALL the dead in Christ, and in FACT ALL the dead. That would include even those who physically die in Christ from Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." They aren't numbered with the souls alive after martyrdom, who had already lived and been martyred during this time symbolized a thousand years. But they too shall live with Christ before they die within this same symbolic period of time.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It's not only those who have physically died in Christ that shall be resurrected to life again at Christ' second coming. ALL that are in the graves shall be physically resurrected. Those who have done good, (died in Christ) resurrected to immortal life, and those who have done evil, resurrected for condemnation.

There shall not be two separate physical resurrections of ALL the dead. There is an order for the resurrection of ALL the physically dead that is coming. First the dead in Christ are resurrected immortal. Then all who are still physically alive at His coming will be caught up immortal with them. Then the rest of the dead, all who live and die in unbelief, shall also be resurrected to life again to stand before God at the GWTJ. They will be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life, their fate? The eternal flames of the lake of fire forever.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[WPM]

QUOTE;
"Right. Once Jesus comes and destroys His enemies no one will die anymore after that"

Remember, you are saying half the planet population is destroyed.
But it gets worse, because you are saying , at that point, Jesus kills all the population.
( As you assured us that the ones left behind are earth's unsaved population)

Nope, Nope, Nope

I notice that every argument you present is built upon your own personal statements, not hard Scripture. For you to do otherwise, would absolutely negate your doctrine.

 

[WPM]

Of course those left behind are killed.
That group CAN NOT be unsaved.
It can ONLY BE BELIEVERS, because half OF A GROUP are taken / half OF THAT GROUP left behind.
How absurd to try and make that group the world's population????
It can NEVER FIT.
And yet you keep on believing half the world is saved, half unsaved??????
Not now
Not in the past
Not ever in the future.
It can not possibly be

Not remotely possible.
Yet your DOCTRINE DEMANDS IT.
SMH

All private opinion. No Scripture!

 

[WPM]

Under this view of yours half the world is saved, half lost.
And you defend it.

When did he say that?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I notice that every argument you present is built upon your own personal statements, not hard Scripture. For you to do otherwise, would absolutely negate your doctrine.

Show me where one taken and one left is not in the Bible.( ahem..mat 24)
You made the claim it is not.
I showed it to you.
Now you are just refuting the word of God.
Not wise my friend.
But I am prepared to make you go against it anytime.
As you just did.

 

[rebuilder 454]

All private opinion. No Scripture!

All take the mark that are not written in the book of life.
Stop misrepresenting the Bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When did he say that?

Not only he, but you erroneously believe the same thing.
One taken, one left.
Both of you say they are unbelievers that are left.
( half the earth's population saved, half unsaved.)
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

I notice that every argument you present is built upon your own personal statements, not hard Scripture. For you to do otherwise, would absolutely negate your

 

[David in NJ]

Funny how you and him scoff st Noah being over a mile into the sky ( heavens) and up there DURING THE TRIB ON EARTH , then returning postrib back to earth.

How vivid Jesus depicted the pretrib rapture.

Good Morning my Brother @rebuilder 454

Funny how you are the first to post to me without saying: Good Morning!
Are you in suffering that it is too painful to say - Good Morning?
i am suffering, so i know what it means to be sad/angry and in such despair at times where you pray for God to take you Home.


Noah was DELIVERED from God's WRATH = Pre-WRATH Deliverance as Promised by our LORD = 1 Thess 1:10

Noah being lifted UP by the FLOOD is the SAME OUTCOME as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

 

[David in NJ]

This is the issue: WHEN will all be made alive. That is; will receive immortality?
First is Christ, then those who are in Christ at His coming. Thinking that ALL will be immortalized at His Return, is wrong as we are clearly told that only the GT martyrs are raised back to life at that time. Revelation 20:4

So, for all who hold to the belief of a general resurrection of the Christian dead at the glorious Return, carry on in your fixed and intransigent view, but it is a direct contradiction of scripture, is illogical and simply does not fit with the sequence of events as given in Revelation. Also as described in Daniel 7:9-10, a parenthetical Prophecy, paralleled by Revelation 20:11-15

The AMill theory is debunked by 1 Cor 15:24, Jesus Returns as King over the world, as many Prophesies describe, He will reign for a thousand years; then hand the Kingdom to the Father God,

This is the issue: WHEN will all be made alive. That is; will receive immortality?

Have you never read the entire Gospel where the LORD promises Eternal Life for His Elect??? Eternal = Immortal in the Resurrection

Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,
being sons of the resurrection.
But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.” - Luke ch20

 

[WPM]

Show me where one taken and one left is not in the Bible.( ahem..mat 24)
You made the claim it is not.
I showed it to you.
Now you are just refuting the word of God.
Not wise my friend.
But I am prepared to make you go against it anytime.
As you just did.

Read the Op. Address what I wrote on it. Stop avoiding!

 

[WPM]

Not only he, but you erroneously believe the same thing.
One taken, one left.
Both of you say they are unbelievers that are left.
( half the earth's population saved, half unsaved.)
SMH

Read the Op. Address what I wrote on it. Stop avoiding!

 

[WPM]

Good Morning my Brother @rebuilder 454

Funny how you are the first to post to me without saying: Good Morning!
Are you in suffering that it is too painful to say - Good Morning?
i am suffering, so i know what it means to be sad/angry and in such despair at times where you pray for God to take you Home.

Bro, get over this. You are online. These forums are international. What is morning to one is evening to another. Any way, we are big boys. This is petty.

How about staying to Scripture? You have some good arguments.

 

[David in NJ]

Bro, get over this. You are online. These forums are international. What is morning to one is evening to another. Any way, we are big boys. This is petty.

How about staying to Scripture? You have some good arguments.

Well, Good Morning to you also!

How wonderful it is that this is "international", so that my Brethren in Christ can SEE and Rejoice in Truth!

As it is written: "Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss"

My "holy kiss" to ALL the Brethren is 'Good Morning'

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WHere does it say that He rules in the Millenium from heaven and not from Jerusalem?

In Revelation 20 John sees souls of the dead in Christ living and reigning with Christ and, of course, they would be in heaven. Can you address what I said regarding Acts 2:29-36. Should we not accept what Peter taught about how Christ was given authority on David's throne by way of His resurrection, which lines up with other scriptures like Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-22?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

QUOTE;
"Right. Once Jesus comes and destroys His enemies no one will die anymore after that"

Remember, you are saying half the planet population is destroyed.

No, I'm not saying that. Don't try to speak for me. It will be more than half the planet's population, I'm sure, because it will be all who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

But it gets worse, because you are saying , at that point, Jesus kills all the population.

Only unbelievers, of course. This is taught in many passages including Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:17-18.

( As you assured us that the ones left behind are earth's unsaved population)

The context shows that they are unsaved. It's very clear. They are compared to those who were killed in Noah's day and in Lot's day. Were those people not unsaved? Of course they were. You are not looking at any context.

Nope, Nope, Nope

Yep, Yep, Yep. You obviously have nothing to refute what I'm saying. You never back up anything you say with scripture, so you can't be taken seriously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course those left behind are killed.
That group CAN NOT be unsaved.
It can ONLY BE BELIEVERS, because half OF A GROUP are taken / half OF THAT GROUP left behind.

Believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at that point and will meet Christ in the air. No believers will be left behind. That's ludicrous. You are trying to differentiate between saved people and believers, which is beyond ridiculous. No mortals will survive.

How absurd to try and make that group the world's population????

How absurd to try and say any mortals will survive His second coming. All the saved will be made immortal and all the unsaved will be killed. That is taught repeatedly in scripture. But, maybe you can explain how any mortals can survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

It can NEVER FIT.
And yet you keep on believing half the world is saved, half unsaved??????

Why do you keep trying to tell me what I believe? Something is very wrong with you. You don't tell me what I believe. I'll tell you what I believe. And I don't believe half the world is saved, half unsaved. Stop misrepresenting my view. You're taking the one taken, one left thing too literally. That's your fault.

Not remotely possible.
Yet your DOCTRINE DEMANDS IT.
SMH

Don't tell me what my doctrine demands. You have no idea of what you're talking about. Absolutely none.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Tell me, what happens to those who are saved at this point? They are changed to have immortal bodies, right? Right. Good job. And what happens to those who are not saved at this point? Jesus takes vengeance on them, right? Right. Good job again. So, now you understand that no mortals will survive when Jesus comes. There will be no seven year tribulation that you believe will happen at that point and there will be no thousand year earthly kingdom. The text does not support that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope.
You made up pre wrath / postrib rapture.
There is zero commerce for any believer postrib/ prewrath.
Some vast stretching is needed for that erroneous belief.
The fact all are killed refusing the mark makes your entire deal impossible.
Not most.
Nor some.
The Bible says ALL.
ALL DIE refusing the mark.
The Bible says no commerce without the mark.
You deny that truth.

Your doctrine is completely ludicrous. You think literally all believers will die before Christ returns despite Paul saying there will be those who are alive and remain. You are the one denying the truth here. Your nonsense can't be supported by scripture, overall. You interpret something you read in Revelation a certain way and then make the rest of scripture say what you want it to say in order to fit your false interpretation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Under this view of yours half the world is saved, half lost.
And you defend it.

Wrong. That is not what I believe. Misrepresenting my view does nothing but make you look dumb.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Funny how you and him scoff st Noah being over a mile into the sky ( heavens) and up there DURING THE TRIB ON EARTH , then returning postrib back to earth.

How vivid Jesus depicted the pretrib rapture.

How many unbelievers survived the flood? None. How many unbelievers survived in Sodom? None. Jesus said that's how it will be when He comes (Matt 24:39, Luke 17:30), but you completely ignore that. Your doctrine is based only on your imagination and not on scripture.