It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

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Eternally Grateful

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Daniel 9:25-26a says, “Know therefore and understand, that from (1) the going forth of the commandment to (2) restore and to build Jerusalem unto (3) the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

In the previous verse we have the total duration described as 70 weeks or 490 years. In verse 25 these 70 weeks are split into 3 parts, albeit the last week is still not yet specifically described:

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Whilst, the last week is still not fully described we will look at the overall outline at this juncture for a blueprint.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
So your saying from the time Jerusalem was built, which was 49 years or 7 weeks.

until Jesus begins his ministry, there is a gap. and the 62 weeks starts then??
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs).
when was the 7 year covenant confirmed?

and in this prophecy, Messiah comes at the end of the 69th week. And we are told when the messiah would come, on a donkey, remembering, until this time, jesus continually said, it is not my time, it is not my time.

as for messiah being cut off. It happens AFTER (inhebrew it is immediately after, the next event) he comes to jerusalem. not 3. 5 years after.
The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.
So Christ comes at this time? And the abomination of desolation has been standing in the holy place for 3.5 years when this happens?

Thats odd. Sacrifice and burnt offering continued.. and would continue until 70 AD when Titus destroyed the temple. Just like Daniel was told he would
The question the futurists must answer is: is there any division in time between the 7th and 8th weeks?
do what? where does the 8th week come in, I see no 8th week mentioned in dan 9. now your making things up


The answer, of course, is a categorical NO!

Then, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7-year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.
Yet I showed you two passages which prove it.
The text does not in any way demand a gap;
Well,. thanks for your opinion. But as I proved, it most definatly does.
the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.
I did not insert one. Gabriel inserted one, between the messiah the prince and the confirming of a covenant for one week.

in between this time, the city would be destroyed and left deolate until war desolations are determined (As see here what jesus said,l there will be ward and rumers of wars. kingdom will rise against kingdom, nation against nation, but the end is not yet.

THEN you will see the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel
The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.
Again, Your in error. It would be fulilled at the end of the 70th week.

And it concerns daniels people and his holy city.

Nothing has been fulfilled to this day..
What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.
No one is rejecting the sacrifice, this prophecy is not about the sacrifice. the cross is a mention, and part of a time period. thats it

the message os about Israel, who is in sin, and the city, which at the time was in ruins.
The “overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary (1/2 way through the final week). And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.
No.

The abomination of desolation is an idol or unclean things placed in a holy place. which renders the holy place unclean, rendering it desolate and causes sacrifice and burnt offering to cease.

We have an example when during the maccabean period. a gentile king slaughtered a pig in the holy place.

Israel was in sin for the whole time, they never repented. thats why they were still slaved..
 

IndianaRob

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9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

It says those who were slain or killed

not everyone..

and it is while he opned the 6th seal. so it is in my view those killed because they did not recieve the mark. or killed because they believed in Jesus
You’re saying the fifth seal is future. We’ll, everyone who has died or will die after the resurrection of Jesus goes directly to heaven and so shall they ever be with the Lord. Agree?

If you agree then why are these souls still under the alter when everyone else who dies goes straight to heaven to be with Jesus?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Jesus is reigning now!
so who is going to jerusalem once a year to worship him?

Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


why is this not happening today.

Don;t tell me God is doing something, prove it.
There is so much is wrong with your theology that it is difficult to know where to begin. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is king now. He is reigning in majesty upon high now! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today. You ducked around the Scripture I presented that exposes your BIG-DEVIL and small-jesus theology. Your theology forces Christ to abdicate His throne at the right hand of majesty on high. Your teachers have taught you wrong! Israel’s king has already come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom.

While you, your fellow Premils and the Pharisees did not accept Christ as Christ, many did and do today. Amongst them are most Amils. While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Listen to how God revealed Christ to the wisemen in Matthew 2:1-2: behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

Here you have it! The sacred text testifies to the fact that Jesus Christ was “born King of the Jews.”

John 1:47-49: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! … Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.”

As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people.

Listen to what they were shouting on Palm Sunday. The people declared in John 12:12-15: “Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.”

Before Jesus death in John 18:36 Jesus told Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

In the next verse, Pilate asked Jesus: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Israel’s king had come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom to this earth.

The Roman soldiers mocked Jesus in Matthew 27:29: when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!”

Their derision was directed toward Christ and the title because that is what belonged to Him, and that is what He claimed.

Above Jesus on the cross Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS (John 19:19).

By Christ’s own affirmation Pilate inscribed this great title upon the cross.

Kings carry authority. On Christ’s part, all authority. To deny Christ kingship is to deny His authority, because both are inextricably linked.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

The lion is known as the king of the jungle. It carries great authority and power. That is a very potent symbol of who Jesus is. By the way, the Bible does not say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.

Ephesians 1:17-21, the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

Philippians 2:9 says, wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.
lol. If christ is ruling, he is not a very good king.

Good luck man. good luck
 

grafted branch

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Agree for the most part. And that means the fifth seal was opened at the crucifixtion of Christ.
We know that the fifth seal question of “how long” had to be asked prior to the book of Revelation being published. After the book of Revelation is read by a person there is no need to ask “how long”, we all know the answer, it written down for us in Revelation 6:11.

Those under the altar are killed for their testimony and the word of God, so if this event is future (as some people insist) then there would be no reason to ask, they have the Revelation 6:11 answer to the Revelation 6:10 question before they even die in the first place.

Asking the question of “how long” would make about as much sense as asking Jesus where He was born.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Revelation 20 started with the first resurrection - Christ. It will end at the great white throne - and general resurrection of all.
Rev 20 starts after the end of the tribulation. when the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (end of chapter 19)

It begins with Satan being bound for 1000 years (vs 1 - 3)

It includes the saints ruling with christ for 1000 years (vs 4 - 6)

It will include satan being released and causing another huge rebellion which will be crushed by christ himself and then satan will be cast into the lake of fire (7 - 10)

after all of these things have been completed. there is the great white throne where the lost will be delivered to christ for judgment, and cast into the lake of fire. where the false prophet and the beast and satan at this time are. (vs 11 - 14)


Then chapter 20 opens with the new heavens and new earth as the first have been utterly destroyed.


nice try,, but again, you have failed to prove you point
 

The Light

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the saints in rev 12 and 13 are gentile believers. the offspring of the woman. which is Israel. Israel is still blinded in part. and at this time, being protected in the mountains.. as she was told to run
The Gentiles will be raptured before the great tribulation begins. That is when part of Israel has its blindness removed. The seed of the woman are the Jews across the earth. The woman flees to her place of protection and the dragon cannot get to her. He goes after her seed which are the Jews across the earth.

After the Church is raptured there are first fruits of the second harvest...........hence 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


 

IndianaRob

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We know that the fifth seal question of “how long” had to be asked prior to the book of Revelation being published. After the book of Revelation is read by a person there is no need to ask “how long”, we all know the answer, it written down for us in Revelation 6:11.

Those under the altar are killed for their testimony and the word of God, so if this event is future (as some people insist) then there would be no reason to ask, they have the Revelation 6:11 answer to the Revelation 6:10 question before they even die in the first place.

Asking the question of “how long” would make about as much sense as asking Jesus where He was born.
I agree. The alter was the cross and the souls under the alter were the OT saints in Abraham’s bosom.
 

WPM

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so who is going to jerusalem once a year to worship him?

Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


why is this not happening today.

Don;t tell me God is doing something, prove it.

lol. If christ is ruling, he is not a very good king.

Good luck man. good luck
Again, you never ever address the Scriptures that are presented. You just divert off on rabbit trails. Address what I wrote that proves Christ is king now reigning at the right hand of majesty.
 

grafted branch

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I agree. The alter was the cross and the souls under the alter were the OT saints in Abraham’s bosom.
Yea, I think that’s right, the souls ask the question in what seems to be a group effort. The question could’ve been asked when Jesus was in the heart of the earth, just after being crucified or the question might have been asked by those in the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

Either way it seems to fit the timing of the cross.
 
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IndianaRob

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Yea, I think that’s right, the souls ask the question in what seems to be a group effort. The question could’ve been asked when Jesus was in the heart of the earth, just after being crucified or the question might have been asked by those in the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

Either way it seems to fit the timing of the cross.
I never thought of that but that is highly likely the OT saints asking Jesus how long.

I think the fellow servants to be killed would likely be people like John the Baptist.
 
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WPM

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Rev 20 starts after the end of the tribulation. when the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (end of chapter 19)

It begins with Satan being bound for 1000 years (vs 1 - 3)

It includes the saints ruling with christ for 1000 years (vs 4 - 6)

It will include satan being released and causing another huge rebellion which will be crushed by christ himself and then satan will be cast into the lake of fire (7 - 10)

after all of these things have been completed. there is the great white throne where the lost will be delivered to christ for judgment, and cast into the lake of fire. where the false prophet and the beast and satan at this time are. (vs 11 - 14)


Then chapter 20 opens with the new heavens and new earth as the first have been utterly destroyed.


nice try,, but again, you have failed to prove you point
Who and what is the first resurrection?
 

grafted branch

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I never thought of that but that is highly likely the OT saints asking Jesus how long.

I think the fellow servants to be killed would likely be people like John the Baptist.
The interesting thing about John the Baptist is that he seems to fit the description of the two witnesses fairly well, although not quite enough to draw a definitive conclusion. Maybe JtB was a type?

Here’s what I have on JtB and the two witnesses if you’re interested …

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias but in John 1:21 JtB answers “no” when asked if he is Elias. In some kind of way JtB is a single person that represents 2 people, himself and Elijah.

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Mathew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison (war), Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ (overcome), and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded (killed).

Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party which could be what making merry and sending gifts is referring to.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the Spirit of life enters into them and they stand on their feet. In Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection (3 ½ days?) the graves are opened and the bodies of the saints arose. It is possible that JtB was one of the saints that arose at that time.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You’re saying the fifth seal is future. We’ll, everyone who has died or will die after the resurrection of Jesus goes directly to heaven and so shall they ever be with the Lord. Agree?

Yes, but not everyone who dies and went to heaven were killed. they also had not yet had their white robes, if you look in chapter 4. they not only had their crowns, but their robes.. These people had already been ressurected and judged
If you agree then why are these souls still under the alter when everyone else who dies goes straight to heaven to be with Jesus?
Is the alter in heaven?
 

Eternally Grateful

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The Gentiles will be raptured before the great tribulation begins.
The church will be raptured.

the church includes jew and gentile
That is when part of Israel has its blindness removed. The seed of the woman are the Jews across the earth. The woman flees to her place of protection and the dragon cannot get to her. He goes after her seed which are the Jews across the earth.
No. Her seed would be in this context the gentile believers who came to christ at this time
After the Church is raptured there are first fruits of the second harvest...........hence 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel.
the 144000 or just 144000 jewish missionaries called out. there are many more who have believed who have been put to death and many more who are still living
Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
yes, 144000 from the tribes of Israel. who were called out for a purpose. to go across the earth and spread the gospel.
 

The Light

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That’s not what the Bible says. In fact the rider of the white horse that goes forth conquering and to conquer is Jesus Christ and so are the other three horse riders.
The rider on the white horse is the Antichrist. He is GIVEN the stephanos crown, leaf crown of victory. This is the symbol of the UN. The rider on the white horse carries a bow. The bow is what the false savior Tammuz carries. Tammuz is Horus. That is the eye of Horus on the back of a dollar bill. None of the seals are opened. Horus is Apollo.

un-symbol.jpg
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Again, you never ever address the Scriptures that are presented. You just divert off on rabbit trails. Address what I wrote that proves Christ is king now reigning at the right hand of majesty.
Actually you do this

Your passages did not adress it, if it did, it would also adress this passage.

so you can either tell me when these things happened. or where they are happening, or all the verses you posted are meaninlgess and taken out of context.

the bible agrees with itself. it does not contradict itself
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Yea, I think that’s right, the souls ask the question in what seems to be a group effort. The question could’ve been asked when Jesus was in the heart of the earth, just after being crucified or the question might have been asked by those in the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

Either way it seems to fit the timing of the cross.
but it is yet future. so it does not fit the timing of the cross..
 

Eternally Grateful

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I never thought of that but that is highly likely the OT saints asking Jesus how long.

I think the fellow servants to be killed would likely be people like John the Baptist.
But its not OT saints, it is those who have been killed for their testimoney

it is the people in the previous verses who will be killed

rev 6: 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.