It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

The Mt of Olives has not been split in half. So visible proof that Zechariah 14:2-5 is still future.

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

Did John literally and personally flatten every mountain and fill every valley that he encountered? No, like Zachariah 14, this is figurative language depicting the earth-shattering impact the truth had upon this globe.

John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Douggg]

LOL! Douggg, you are making yourself look so bad in this thread and you are oblivious to it. After YEARS of Amils explaining to you what we believe, you still don't even know what we believe. That does not reflect well on your reading comprehension skills, Douggg. No wonder you keep trying to get us to post charts! You can't read!


You are taking 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 out of context. It has nothing to do with peace and safety in the world, but rather with each individual unbeliever thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath.

Look at the context, Douggg.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The context here is not in relation to the status of the world, but rather the spiritual status of each individual person whether they are in spiritual light or darkness. So, when it says they will say "peace and safety" the context indicates that it's talking about them claiming to be spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath, when in reality they are in spiritual darkness and are of the night and they are appointed to God's wrath which they will experience unexpectedly as a thief in the night and it will happen suddenly.

Believers, in contrast, are in spiritual light and are of the day because of watching and being spiritually sober due to "putting on the breastplate of faith and love" and the helmet of the hope of salvation. So, they are not appointed to God's wrath that will come in the form of "sudden destruction" when Christ returns. The destruction will be so complete that "they shall not escape". So, it makes sense to conclude that Peter wrote about the same event regarding destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord because he indicates that the whole earth will be burned up. So, that explains why Paul said they will not escape.

So, according to Amil, in the 42 months of the beast-king's reign, when people are gong to be put to death for not worshiping the beast nor his his image, and the trumpet judgement and vials of God's wrath are taking place around the world - individuals will "spiritually" be saying peace and safety - although God's vials of wrath and trumpet judgments will be taking a huge toll on them - that because of those individuals, Jesus is going to come and the destroy the heavens and entire world in the manner in 2Peter3:10?

And Jesus shall not physically stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah14:2-5, which @WPM says is figurative ?

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No wonder there are no Amil time-line charts of time of the end events.

 

[WPM]

So, according to Amil, in the 42 months of the beast-king's reign, when people are gong to be put to death for not worshiping the beast nor his his image, and the trumpet judgement and vials of God's wrath are taking place around the world - individuals will "spiritually" be saying peace and safety - although God's vials of wrath and trumpet judgments will be taking a huge toll on them - that because of those individuals, Jesus is going to come and the destroy the heavens and entire world in the manner in 2Peter3:10?

And Jesus shall not physically stand on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah14:2-5, which @WPM says is figurative ?

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No wonder there are no Amil time-line charts of time of the end events.

You are doing your best to avoid the Op. If you want to start a thread on Amil, please do. Address the Op!

 

[Douggg]

2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

The second coming ends satans unrestrained activity.

jeff, I suggest that you go by the kjv, which in the kjv it says in verse 8... not slay... but consume .

The person will be cast alive into the lake of fire, him and also the false prophet, in Revelation 19:20.

 

[Douggg]

You are doing your best to avoid the Op. If you want to start of thread on Amil, please do. Address the Op!

In your opening post, you wrote.... "(and in Dougg’s case distorted charts)". So, where are Amil's so called "un-distorted" charts ?

Your thread represents the Amil view. So why do you not want to discuss what you wrote in your first three posts of the thread - as those posts represent the Amil view regarding the pre-trib rapture?

The pre-trib rapture view represents one of the rapture timing views held by Premil. I am Premil.

 

[WPM]

In your opening post, you wrote.... "(and in Dougg’s case distorted charts)". So, where are Amil's so called "un-distorted" charts ?

Your thread represents the Amil view. So why do you not want to discuss what you wrote in your first three posts of the thread - as those posts represent the Amil view regarding the pre-trib rapture?

The pre-trib rapture view represents one of the rapture timing views held by Premil. I am Premil.

Are you Pretrib?

 

[Douggg]

Are you Pretrib?

I think the Pre-trib view is possible - but not mandatory.

The rapture may not happen until after the 70th week has begun. The limit is that the rapture will take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of sitting in the temple claiming to have achieved God-hood (which triggers the beginning of the day of Lord, when God's wrath will be poured out, 1Thessalonians5:9, annotated on my chart below)

 

[WPM]

I think the Pre-trib view is possible - but not mandatory.

The rapture may not happen until after the 70th week has begun. The limit is that the rapture will take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of sitting in the temple claiming to have achieved God-hood.




View attachment 49845

You are Pretrib in your teaching. Address the Op or please find another thread.

 

[Douggg]

You are Pretrib in your teaching. Address the Op or please find another thread.

Why ? You are attacking the Pre-trib view with this thread. Can no-one disagree with you ?

 

[WPM]

Why ? You are attacking the Pre-trib view. Can no-one disagree with you ?

LOL. I said address it, if you can.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. I said address it, if you can.

I think there should be a separate forum expressly for Amil participation only. This particular forum though is "Eschatology and Prophecy Forum".

You started another similar thread "The absurdity of Pretrib logic" that is now locked. So the Pretrib rapture timing view seems to be
a big issue for you.

 

[jeffweeder]

jeff, I suggest that you go by the kjv, which in the kjv it says in verse 8... not slay... but consume .

Makes no difference, he and satans activity are put to an end after the restraint.

2Thess 2 kjv
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Douggg]

Makes no difference, he and satans activity are put to an end after the restraint.

For certain there is coming an end to Satan's activity and the time of the end little horn/prince that shall come/Antichrist/revealed man of sin/beast-king person.

 

[WPM]

I think there should a separate forum expressly for Amil participation only. This particular forum though is "Eschatology and Prophecy Forum".

You started another similar thread "The absurdity of Pretrib logic" that is now locked. So the Pretrib rapture timing view seems to be
a big issue for you.

Yes! It needs exposed!

 

[jeffweeder]

For certain there is coming an end to Satan's activity and the time of the end little horn/prince that shall come/Antichrist/revealed man of sin/beast-king person.

Yes, at his coming...Amill.
When do you think it is?

 

[Douggg]

Yes, at his coming...Amill.
When do you think it is?

Yes, at his coming - Premil

jeff, in Zechariah 14:2-5 is Jesus returning to stand on the Mt of Olives, splitting it apart. And then afterward, events in Jerusalem, to come worship the King - Jesus. So there is going to be time left on this present earth after Jesus returns.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes! It needs exposed!

Yep, it is clearly a false hope.

Matt 24 kjv
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes, at his coming - Premil

After the restraining, satan goes forth in all power of deception and the second coming puts all this to an end.

2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

3 Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the [apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], 4 who opposes and exalts himself [so proudly and so insolently] above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he [actually enters and] takes his seat in the temple of God, publicly proclaiming that he himself is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

That is Amill

 

[GISMYS_7]

The great tribulation is God's judgement "wrath" against an evil God rejecting world and we believers are not appointed to God's warth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10​

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Believers are caught up "raptured" before the years of great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

After the restraining, satan goes forth in all power of deception and the second coming puts all this to an end.

2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

3 Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the [apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], 4 who opposes and exalts himself [so proudly and so insolently] above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he [actually enters and] takes his seat in the temple of God, publicly proclaiming that he himself is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

That is Amill

That is Premill

My post #176