It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Peter 3:10 is talking about this present earth being completely destroyed. It will happen right before the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20.

You understand that I agree with this, right? I just don't think it happens 1,000+ years after Christ returns like you do.

So, seeing how you acknowledge that 2 Peter 3:10, which is about the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, is talking about the literal destruction of this present earth, why do you try to claim that the sudden destruction that occurs when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night is not physical destruction, but rather the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling of the world, as WPM quoted you as saying? There's no consistency in your interpretations.

Here is the verse...

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Differently, the sudden destruction in 1Thessalonians5:2-3 is not referring to the entire planet being destroyed, but the destruction to take place during time of God's wrath (1Thessalonians5:9).

So, you changed your mind about 1 Thess 5:2-3 and no longer believe that it's talking about the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling in the world and you know believe it's talking about actual physical destruction?

Your contention that 1 Thess 5:2-3 is not the same event as 2 Peter 3:10-12 is insane. You indicate correctly that 1 Thess 5:2-3 is God's wrath. But, do you not consider what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 to be God's wrath? What else is it?

There is no basis whatsoever to not see 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 as the same event. Both talk about destruction that occurs unexpectedly as a thief in the night on the day of the Lord. How in the world can you not acknowledge that they are the same event? That makes no sense whatsoever. It reveals that you again just make scripture say what you want it to say.

Clearly, the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" is described in detail in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Surely, no one would escape fire coming down on the earth, right? So, what basis is there for seeing one account of destruction occurring on the day of the Lord being different than another account of destruction occurring on the day of the Lord? Are there two days of the Lord in your doctrine?

Take a look at this time line chart - all of the verses are referenced on the chart.

No, I'm not going to look at any of your useless charts that never accurately reflect biblical timelines. They are just as inaccurate and nonsensical as your words.

 

[rwb]

Right. They won't admit it, but they see the first 69 weeks as each being seven years in duration and they have stretched the 70th week to almost 2,000 years now. Also, it says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week. His death is absolutely crucial to the fulfillment of the things listed in Daniel 9:24 that were to be fulfilled within 70 weeks, so it's not reasonable to not have His death fall within any of the 70 weeks. Since He was cut off after the end of the 69th week, His death must fall within the 70th week. But, they deny this. To deny that requires someone to conclude that Daniel 9:24 can be fulfilled apart from the death of Christ, but that is impossible. No reconciliation can be made for iniquity apart from the shed blood of Christ.

Exactly! They simply refuse to accept what is written.

All that was written in Dan 9 must be fulfilled in 490 years which was accomplished when Christ, Messiah the Prince came. The final one week is set apart to bring light to all that Christ accomplished within one week. NOT one week of years as so many seem to imagine.

From the decree issued first by Cyrus, then ratified by King Artaxerxes to the anointing of Christ at 27 years of age is 483 years. The final one week set apart, fulfilling the prophetic 490 years or 70 weeks of years being fulfilled. The final one week of Christ’s earthly ministry is divided from the beginning of His earthly ministry to His cross is 3 ½ days, ends with His resurrection three days (from Fri to Sun) after that, which ushers in everlasting righteousness (eternal life) for whosoever believes the Gospel as it begins to be sent out from Christ’s Church unto all the nations of the earth. The final one week of Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled through Christ from His anointing to His resurrection, all that Daniel prophesied of Him was fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

So, seeing how you acknowledge that 2 Peter 3:10, which is about the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, is talking about the literal destruction of this present earth, why do you try to claim that the sudden destruction that occurs when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night is not physical destruction, but rather the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling of the world, as WPM quoted you as saying? There's no consistency in your interpretations.

The sudden destruction that will take place when the day of the Lord begins - is physical. I never said it was not. The destruction that will take place during the great tribulation will be catastrophic.

The notion that the world will have, believing that it has entered the messianic age, that of the world saying peace and safety - will be shattered. But that is the destruction of a mind set - not the physical destruction of the great tribulation.

Clearly, the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" is described in detail in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Surely, no one would escape fire coming down on the earth, right? So, what basis is there for seeing one account of destruction occurring on the day of the Lord being different than another account of destruction occurring on the day of the Lord? Are there two days of the Lord in your doctrine?

There has to be a time frame for the great tribulation which destruction worldwide will be catastrophic. That is the sudden destruction to take place during 1Thessalonians5.

No, there are not two - days of the Lord, in my position. Only one. And it lasts for eternity, never ends.

No, I'm not going to look at any of your useless charts that never accurately reflect biblical timelines. They are just as inaccurate and nonsensical as your words.

I made a few more notations on my chart.

 

[Douggg]

You understand that I agree with this, right? I just don't think it happens 1,000+ years after Christ returns like you do.

Then how do you account for the first resurrection in Revelation 20:3-4, and then there being a later resurrection of the rest of the dead until the thousand years are over, Revelation 20:5?

 

[WPM]

The sudden destruction that will take place when the day of the Lord begins - is physical. I never said it was not. The destruction that will take place during the great tribulation will be catastrophic.

The notion that the world will have, believing that it has entered the messianic age, that of the world saying peace and safety - will be shattered. But that is the destruction of a mind set - not the physical destruction of the great tribulation.


There has to be a time frame for the great tribulation which destruction worldwide will be catastrophic. That is the sudden destruction to take place during 1Thessalonians5.

No, there are not two - days of the Lord, in my position. Only one. And it lasts for eternity, never ends.

I made a few more notations on my chart.


View attachment 49844

You are always adding onto Scripture, something that is forbidden in the Bible. You limit the scale of the destruction, without any contextual warrant, you limit the scale of the wicked destroyed, without any biblical authority. You must do that in order to try and fit your Pretrib/Premil and usher billions of mortals wicked into a still-fallen new millennial earth.

 

[WPM]

The sudden destruction that will take place when the day of the Lord begins - is physical. I never said it was not. The destruction that will take place during the great tribulation will be catastrophic.

The notion that the world will have, believing that it has entered the messianic age, that of the world saying peace and safety - will be shattered. But that is the destruction of a mind set - not the physical destruction of the great tribulation.


There has to be a time frame for the great tribulation which destruction worldwide will be catastrophic. That is the sudden destruction to take place during 1Thessalonians5.

No, there are not two - days of the Lord, in my position. Only one. And it lasts for eternity, never ends.

I made a few more notations on my chart.


View attachment 49844

Of course, Premils have to limit the destruction that occurs at the coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3 in order to explain away this explicit text. Some try to assign a limited localized extent to the devastation; others try to restrict it to the land or ground above water. They do this by diluting down the meaning of the references to “heavens” and “earth” (ouranos and gē) and especially in regard to the Greek word gē translated earth. They contend we should view this word as ground, land or soil (or the outer surface) of the earth, not necessarily the whole globe. What is more, they then conveniently, and without any textual warrant, localize the judgment in order to facilitate a limited destruction to support their false teaching. Ouranos they say alludes to a part of the atmosphere.

With this latter approach there are many major difficulties. The most notable is the fact that the Holy Spirit uses these two words (ouranos and gē) consistently in the Word to describe the “heavens” and “earth.” A further significant inconsistency arrives when you arrive at Revelation 20 – the main Premil proof text. ouranos and gē are used at the end of Revelation 20 to described the destruction of the heavens and the earth. Every Premil scholar that addresses this much-debated chapter insists on a literal interpretation of the same. There is no thought that these two words refer to just a part of the atmosphere and or a part of the earth as some Premils suggest. The heavens and earth (ouranos and gē) come to an end. Of course this correlates beautifully with 2 Peter 3, giving us another picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sudden destruction that will take place when the day of the Lord begins - is physical. I never said it was not.

You gave that impression by saying it was the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling of the world. Try being more clear when you explain your beliefs.

The destruction that will take place during the great tribulation will be catastrophic.

The notion that the world will have, believing that it has entered the messianic age, that of the world saying peace and safety - will be shattered. But that is the destruction of a mind set - not the physical destruction of the great tribulation.


There has to be a time frame for the great tribulation which destruction worldwide will be catastrophic. That is the sudden destruction to take place during 1Thessalonians5.

No, there are not two - days of the Lord, in my position. Only one.

So, why do you have the destruction that occurs unexpectedly as a thief in the night on the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5:2-3 being different than the destruction that occurs unexpectedly as a thief in the night on the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3:10-12? That makes no sense. It's a clear case of you making scripture say what you want it to say. A clear case of you being completely dishonest with scripture. Since you agree that there is one day of the Lord, then you should not try to say that the destruction associated with the day of the Lord in one passage is different than the destruction associated with the day of the Lord in another passage. The way you always make scripture say what you want it to say is disgusting.

And it lasts for eternity, never ends.

Yet, you are completely unable to back up that claim. Scripture never teaches that.

I made a few more notations on my chart.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As if I would waste my time looking at that. I hate even wasting the 1 or 2 seconds it takes to delete your chart after I click on your post to reply to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course, Premils have to limit the destruction that occurs at the coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3 in order to explain away this explicit text. Some try to assign a limited localized extent to the devastation; others try to restrict it to the land or ground above water. They do this by diluting down the meaning of the references to “heavens” and “earth” (ouranos and gē) and especially in regard to the Greek word gē translated earth. They contend we should view this word as ground, land or soil (or the outer surface) of the earth, not necessarily the whole globe. What is more, they then conveniently, and without any textual warrant, localize the judgment in order to facilitate a limited destruction to support their false teaching. Ouranos they say alludes to a part of the atmosphere.

With this latter approach there are many major difficulties. The most notable is the fact that the Holy Spirit uses these two words (ouranos and gē) consistently in the Word to describe the “heavens” and “earth.” A further significant inconsistency arrives when you arrive at Revelation 20 – the main Premil proof text. ouranos and gē are used at the end of Revelation 20 to described the destruction of the heavens and the earth. Every Premil scholar that addresses this much-debated chapter insists on a literal interpretation of the same. There is no thought that these two words refer to just a part of the atmosphere and or a part of the earth as some Premils suggest. The heavens and earth (ouranos and gē) come to an end. Of course this correlates beautifully with 2 Peter 3, giving us another picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, some premils do that, but what Douggg is doing is saying that the "sudden destruction" described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is not even the same as the destruction described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Even though both talk about destruction related to the day of the Lord. It's insane. He agrees that it talks about the literal complete destruction of the heavens and earth in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but says it happens 1,000+ years after Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then how do you account for the first resurrection in Revelation 20:3-4, and then there being a later resurrection of the rest of the dead until the thousand years are over, Revelation 20:5?

Do you really not know how I interpret Revelation 20 by now, Douggg? Seriously? You still don't know what Amils believe after all this time? I've explained it so many times as has WPM and other amils, but you still somehow don't know what Amils believe? Why bother explaining it to you yet again when you apparently won't pay any attention to it or won't remember it, anyway?

It's just ludicrous to try to claim that the destruction occurring unexpectedly on the day of the Lord in one passage is somehow different than the destruction occurring unexpectedly on the day of the Lord in another passage. The destruction Paul described is sudden and is such that "they shall not escape". How can that not be the same as the destruction described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 with the same timing with the added detail that it involves the burning up of the entire earth? Surely, no one would escape that, right? So, it makes sense to conclude that the reason Paul said "they shall not escape" the destruction that occurs upon the unexpected arrival of the day of the Lord is because no one can escape fire coming down on the entire earth.

 

[Douggg]

Of course, Premils have to limit the destruction that occurs at the coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3 in order to explain away this explicit text. Some try to assign a limited localized extent to the devastation; others try to restrict it to the land or ground above water. They do this by diluting down the meaning of the references to “heavens” and “earth” (ouranos and gē) and especially in regard to the Greek word gē translated earth. They contend we should view this word as ground, land or soil (or the outer surface) of the earth, not necessarily the whole globe. What is more, they then conveniently, and without any textual warrant, localize the judgment in order to facilitate a limited destruction to support their false teaching. Ouranos they say alludes to a part of the atmosphere.

With this latter approach there are many major difficulties. The most notable is the fact that the Holy Spirit uses these two words (ouranos and gē) consistently in the Word to describe the “heavens” and “earth.” A further significant inconsistency arrives when you arrive at Revelation 20 – the main Premil proof text. ouranos and gē are used at the end of Revelation 20 to described the destruction of the heavens and the earth. Every Premil scholar that addresses this much-debated chapter insists on a literal interpretation of the same. There is no thought that these two words refer to just a part of the atmosphere and or a part of the earth as some Premils suggest. The heavens and earth (ouranos and gē) come to an end. Of course this correlates beautifully with 2 Peter 3, giving us another picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So you are not only no thousand year millennial reign of Jesus on this present earth, you are also no great tribulation which contains the 7 trumpet actions and the 7 vials of God's wrath action ? You are also none of the time of the end events in the book of Daniel ?

You are also none of the beast-king's 42 months of reign ? What biblically speaking will facilitate the world saying peace and safety - right before Jesus 's Second Coming to destroy the earth of your Amil view ?

 

[WPM]

So you are not only no thousand year millennial reign of Jesus on this present earth, you are also no great tribulation which contains the 7 trumpet actions and the 7 vials of God's wrath action ? You are also none of the time of the end events in the book of Daniel ?

You are also none of the beast-king's 42 months of reign ? What biblically speaking will facilitate the world saying peace and safety - right before Jesus 's Second Coming to destroy the earth in your view ?

Everything happens during the intra-Advent period. No, will you answer what I wrote?

 

[Douggg]

Everything happens during the intra-Advent period. No, will you answer what I wrote?

You did not answer what I wrote.

What biblically speaking will facilitate the world saying peace and safety - right before Jesus 's Second Coming to destroy the earth of your view ?

 

[Douggg]

Everything happens during the intra-Advent period

When does the 42 month reign of the beast-king end ? What ends it ?

 

[WPM]

When does the 42 month reign of the beast-king end ? What ends it ?

Before the return of Christ.

 

[Douggg]

Before the return of Christ.

So in the Amil view, Jesus never stands on this current earth again like it says in Zechariah 14:2-5?

 

[WPM]

So in the Amil view, Jesus never stands on this current earth again like it says in Zechariah 14:2-5?

He did 2000 yrs ago, as the prophet predicted.

 

[Douggg]

He did 2000 yrs ago, as the prophet predicted.

The Mt of Olives has not been split in half. So visible proof that Zechariah 14:2-5 is still future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are not only no thousand year millennial reign of Jesus on this present earth, you are also no great tribulation which contains the 7 trumpet actions and the 7 vials of God's wrath action ? You are also none of the time of the end events in the book of Daniel ?

LOL! Douggg, you are making yourself look so bad in this thread and you are oblivious to it. After YEARS of Amils explaining to you what we believe, you still don't even know what we believe. That does not reflect well on your reading comprehension skills, Douggg. No wonder you keep trying to get us to post charts! You can't read!

You are also none of the beast-king's 42 months of reign ? What biblically speaking will facilitate the world saying peace and safety - right before Jesus 's Second Coming to destroy the earth of your Amil view ?

You are taking 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 out of context. It has nothing to do with peace and safety in the world, but rather with each individual unbeliever thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath.

Look at the context, Douggg.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The context here is not in relation to the status of the world, but rather the spiritual status of each individual person whether they are in spiritual light or darkness. So, when it says they will say "peace and safety" the context indicates that it's talking about them claiming to be spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath, when in reality they are in spiritual darkness and are of the night and they are appointed to God's wrath which they will experience unexpectedly as a thief in the night and it will happen suddenly.

Believers, in contrast, are in spiritual light and are of the day because of watching and being spiritually sober due to "putting on the breastplate of faith and love" and the helmet of the hope of salvation. So, they are not appointed to God's wrath that will come in the form of "sudden destruction" when Christ returns. The destruction will be so complete that "they shall not escape". So, it makes sense to conclude that Peter wrote about the same event regarding destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord because he indicates that the whole earth will be burned up. So, that explains why Paul said they will not escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Mt of Olives has not been split in half. So visible proof that Zechariah 14:2-5 is still future.

Do you take scripture like this literally, also?

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

Is this talking about literally every physical valley being filled and every physical mountain and hill being brought low and literally making crooked paths straight and making the literal rough ways smooth?

 

[jeffweeder]

When does the 42 month reign of the beast-king end ? What ends it ?

2thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

The second coming ends satans unrestrained activity.