Isaiah 65:17 vs. Revelation 21:1. How many NHNEs does that equal?

[Davidpt]

It is pointless discussing anything with you over the years. You hurl multiple false charges against Amil by twisting its beliefs. You have to! You cannot help but look at Amil through a Premil lense. You consequently impose faulty Premil modes of understanding on Amil. That is why you are totally ignorant of Amil. That is why you do not get it. But when you are challenged on these false allegations you are unable to provide support for your claims. When challenged: you always run from each respective discussion. That is what you are doing here and will (doubtless) do. All the time, you duck around the multiple holes in Premil and fudge the lack of corroboration that sinks Premil.

And once again you just proved you have no answers for what might help prove Amil in the event you are correct that Amil is the correct position.

Therefore, of course it is pointless, it being your fault not mine, if Amil can't even convincingly explain why these in Revelation 20:8 are not rebelling during the thousand years, but are doing so after the thousand years.

Let's assume we are in the thousand years right this moment, and tomorrow satan's little season begins. What are these, the number which is as the sand of the sea, doing today and yesterday, and all days prior to that, when they then all of a sudden, starting tomorrow, are coming against the camp of the saints? Why? Why not during the thousand years as well?

Amil makes no sense here whatsoever. Who is it that satan is deceiving after the thousand years? Someone already deceived during the thousand years? Or someone no longer deceived during the thousand years? If the former, how did they get deceived during the thousand years when John already told us the following in verse 3---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

Who deceived them during the thousand years if nations can't be deceived no more, until satan is loosed first?

No matter how you might want to look at it, until Amil can reasonably convincingly explain these in Revelation 20:8, their role during the thousand years, one has to be pretty naive to think Amil might be the correct position in the meantime.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God does not mention "Christian nations" in either the OT or the NT. That is your own invention. Scripture describes the NT Church as a spiritual nation. This is the only entity that carries His favor and blessing. This is God's only chosen people. Every invented Christian nation you present carries no such biblical designation. Such only exists in your thoughts.

There is only one nation that is God's in the NT era, and it is spiritual. It involves peoples of all nationalities. Their citizenship is not off this world, it is heavenly. It was considered "a foolish nation" (Deuteronomy 32:21) from an Old Testament perspective but is known in the New Testament as "a holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9) - “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt 21:43).

A Christ-rejecting nation is neither chosen, pleasing to God, holy or fruit-bearing. Your fight is with the prophets, Jesus, the NT writers and all Amils.

You are argumentative, and so I'm not interested in discussing our different beliefs. I'll enjoy discussing with you when you lose the need to "win." We all want the truth to win.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Instead of rubbishing and avoiding some of the core Premil facts i present re your rerun of this age in a future age after the second coming, please address these simple questions that prove my thesis:

When is sin finally and eternally eliminated?
When is disease finally and eternally eliminated?
When is death finally and eternally eliminated?
When is corruption finally and eternally eliminated?
When are tears finally and eternally eliminated?
When is deception finally and eternally eliminated?
When is war finally and eternally eliminated?
When are funerals finally and eternally eliminated?

I've answered your long list of "questions" many times. They are pre-programmed questions. And you have an argumentative spirit.

 

[WPM]

And once again you just proved you have no answers for what might help prove Amil in the event you are correct that Amil is the correct position.

Therefore, of course it is pointless, it being your fault not mine, if Amil can't even convincingly explain why these in Revelation 20:8 are not rebelling during the thousand years, but are doing so after the thousand years.

Let's assume we are in the thousand years right this moment, and tomorrow satan's little season begins. What are these, the number which is as the sand of the sea, doing today and yesterday, and all days prior to that, when they then all of a sudden, starting tomorrow, are coming against the camp of the saints? Why? Why not during the thousand years as well?

Amil makes no sense here whatsoever. Who is it that satan is deceiving after the thousand years? Someone already deceived during the thousand years? Or someone no longer deceived during the thousand years? If the former, how did they get deceived during the thousand years when John already told us the following in verse 3---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

Who deceived them during the thousand years if nations can't be deceived no more, until satan is loosed first?

No matter how you might want to look at it, until Amil can reasonably convincingly explain these in Revelation 20:8, their role during the thousand years, one has to be pretty naive to think Amil might be the correct position in the meantime.

Again, you are imposing a Premil understanding on what "deceive the nations no more" looks like. You then try to employ that skewed thinking to rubbish Amil. That is unwise and unfair. This is the main eschatological impairment that you suffer from. You cannot think outside of the Premil box. You do not seem to have the ability to look at the Amil argument from an Amil perspective. Until then, you will never comprehend the end-time scenario.

This is simply teaching us: Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles as a collective whole, as before. Christ has an army on this earth that is dispelling the darkness with the truth of God. They are now without excuse. Up until Christ’s earthly ministry, only one nation in the entire world worshipped the living God. The only foreigners who encountered God had to come to Israel to hear the truth. But since Christ, the Gospel has gone out to all nations.

Acts 17:30 says, “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

We have now entered a period of enlightenment since sin was defeated. There has been a bright light shining throughout the nations that has given the Gentiles the wonderful opportunity of salvation.

Acts 14:16 teaches that God “in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Acts 26:23 "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

Satan can still deceive sinners that will not bow their knee to Christ. He can even delude entire communities and people groups; but he is unable to deceive the nations en-masse like he once did. Today, there are Christians throughout the entire extent of the world. Christ has a strong witness in the many once-darkened nations round the globe. Before Calvary Satan had full control over the nations as a whole, now, because of the work of the cross, he no longer has that control.

 

[WPM]

I've answered your long list of "questions" many times. They are pre-programmed questions. And you have an argumentative spirit.

No, you have not! Quite the opposite!

You know where I am going. That is why you duck around these simple questions. You avoid them because to answer them honestly would expose Premil.

 

[WPM]

You are argumentative, and so I'm not interested in discussing our different beliefs. I'll enjoy discussing with you when you lose the need to "win." We all want the truth to win.

You always seem to resort to ad hominem when your argument is exposed. You obviously have something to hide if you cannot address simple points that challenge your thesis. The reader can see that for themselves.

 

[Davidpt]

When is sin finally and eternally eliminated?
When is disease finally and eternally eliminated?
When is death finally and eternally eliminated?
When is corruption finally and eternally eliminated?
When are tears finally and eternally eliminated?
When is deception finally and eternally eliminated?
When is war finally and eternally eliminated?
When are funerals finally and eternally eliminated?

That's real simple. After the time of the great white throne judgment, Certainly not before that time. It is then a question of, when does the great white judgment take place and when does it conclude? For example, Zechariah 14:16-19. Does the great white judgment take place and conclude before those verses are fulfilled? Or are those verses fulfilled first, then the great white judgment takes place and concludes eventually?

And the same question pertaining to the following, as another example. And I come up with way more examples than just this one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Does the great white judgment take place and conclude before this verse is fulfilled? Or is this verse fulfilled first, then the great white judgment takes place and concludes eventually?

 

[WPM]

That's real simple. After the time of the great white throne judgment, Certainly not before that time. It is then a question of, when does the great white judgment take place and when does it conclude? For example, Zechariah 14:16-19. Does the great white judgment take place and conclude before those verses are fulfilled? Or are those verses fulfilled first, then the great white judgment takes place and concludes eventually?

And the same question pertaining to the following, as another example. And I come up with way more examples than just this one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Does the great white judgment take place and conclude before this verse is fulfilled? Or are those verses fulfilled first, then the great white judgment takes place and concludes eventually?

As I have said many times: your mantra is: what saith Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? Amils take the opposite approach; they interpret Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 in the light of the rest of Scripture. They ask in the words of Romans 4:3: "For what saith the Scripture?"

• The Bible teaches us: just as there was a connection between the fall of man and the fall of creation so there will be a correlation between the glorification of man and the glorification of creation.
• Underlying the whole eschatological landscape is a theological structure popularly known as: “the already / not yet” framework.
• Scripture places our existence into two distinct and diverse ages: “this age” and” the age to come.” These two could not be more different. There is no third age. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”
• We all know “this age” is “evil” and “corruptible.” This is in stark contrast as to how the Bible depicts the future world: “the age to come” is depicted as “perfect” and “incorruptible.” Jesus' glorious future return in majesty and glory sees Him execute divine justice and introduce everlasting righteousness on the new earth.
• What was commenced at “the beginning” will someday be concluded at “the end.” All of time and history can be found in between these two particular events.
• Significantly, God’s Word repeatedly identifies “the end” with “the coming of the Lord” when Jesus arrives in majesty and glory. What is more, all the detail attributed to the second coming is climactic.

This totally negate the Premil thesis.

It is time for you to come clean. Who are these nameless humans that are too wicked to be raptured yet too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming? Please identify them. Give us second coming passages, not first coming passages like Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20. And, please tell us, what are the merits that qualify them to inherit a so-called future regenerated millennial earth in an unregenerate unglorified state.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You always seem to resort to ad hominem when your argument is exposed. You obviously have something to hide if you cannot address simple points that challenge your thesis. The reader can see that for themselves.

I'm only trying to get along, brother. Your particular style makes it difficult. There's no nice way to put that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, you have not! Quite the opposite!

You know where I am going. That is why you duck around these simple questions. You avoid them because to answer them honestly would expose Premil.

Yes, everybody is so "afraid" of you that they have to "duck your hard questions." ;) How many years has it been that you've been posting these long lists of questions? How long have I been answering them? And yet you pretend I'm "ducking your questions."

That's why I say your style is difficult to manage without seeming to attack you. I have no interest in attacking or belittling you. Leave the insulting rhetoric out, and we'll discuss all day long, if you wish..

 

[WPM]

I'm only trying to get along, brother. Your particular style makes it difficult. There's no nice way to put that.

No, you are not! You impute evil motives upon those who disagree with you. That is unfair. You are not a heart reader! If you do not want to be challenged you should stop pushing Premil and not be on a discussion forum.

 

[WPM]

Yes, everybody is so "afraid" of you that they have to "duck your hard questions." ;) How many years has it been that you've been posting these long lists of questions? How long have I been answering them? And yet you pretend I'm "ducking your questions."

That's why I say your style is difficult to manage without seeming to attack you. I have no interest in attacking or belittling you. Leave the insulting rhetoric out, and we'll discuss all day long, if you wish..

No. I have asked posters many varying questions over the years on such forums. Many posters do that. Most posters oblige when I ask questions and at least try to answer them. What is wrong with that? These were simple relevant legitimate inoffensive questions pertaining to what you said. And no, you have not addressed these. You have avoided them. They obviously hit a raw nerve, by your hostile reaction.

You hurl insults every time there is any serious probing of Premil. My posts above were focused on the topic at hand. It is you that tries to belittle those who disagree with you. The evidence is there for all to see. It is you that tries to take the conversation into the muck and attribute evil motives that do not exist. That is where you seem most comfortable.

I am asking you to address the queries I presented and keep your ad hominem out of the discussion. It is unneeded and unhelpful.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. I have asked posters many varying questions over the years on such forums. Many posters do that. Most posters oblige when I ask questions and at least try to answer them. What is wrong with that? These were simple relevant legitimate inoffensive questions pertaining to what you said. And no, you have not addressed these. You have avoided them. They obviously hit a raw nerve, by your hostile reaction.

You hurl insults every time there is any serious probing of Premil. My posts above were focused on the topic at hand. It is you that tries to belittle those who disagree with you. The evidence is there for all to see. It is you that tries to take the conversation into the muck and attribute evil motives that do not exist. That is where you seem most comfortable.

I am asking you to address the queries I presented and keep your ad hominem out of the discussion. It is unneeded and unhelpful.

Keep posting your lists then.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, you are not! You impute evil motives upon those who disagree with you. That is unfair. You are not a heart reader! If you do not want to be challenged you should stop pushing Premil and not be on a discussion forum.

Oh yes, I can read hearts at times. It's called the Gift of Discernment. If we can't judge attitudes then we have no business trying to correct attitudes. And yet, Paul did this regularly.

I'm not "pushing Premill." I'm sharing my educated opinion. You are pushing Amill--there is no question about that!

I'm not at all saying you're evil, brother. But I am saying that you've been asked by me to share your Amil view without the pressure, without the manipulation to try to make me agree with you against my own conscience. But when you refuse to do that I will say that you're not being a servant.

 

[WPM]

Oh yes, I can read hearts at times. It's called the Gift of Discernment. If we can't judge attitudes then we have no business trying to correct attitudes. And yet, Paul did this regularly.

I'm not "pushing Premill." I'm sharing my educated opinion. You are pushing Amill--there is no question about that!

I'm not at all saying you're evil, brother. But I am saying that you've been asked by me to share your Amil view without the pressure, without the manipulation to try to make me agree with you against my own conscience. But when you refuse to do that I will say that you're not being a servant.

If you would cut out your ad hominem (and unwise boastings) maybe more people would take your posts serious. This does nothing to advance Premil.

Most of the rest of us are here to discuss Scripture. It might be more profitable if you would go there.

 

[Randy Kluth]

When is sin finally and eternally eliminated?
When is disease finally and eternally eliminated?
When is death finally and eternally eliminated?
When is corruption finally and eternally eliminated?
When are tears finally and eternally eliminated?
When is deception finally and eternally eliminated?
When is war finally and eternally eliminated?
When are funerals finally and eternally eliminated?

When Christ comes at his 2nd Coming for the Church, he will grant resurrection and physical immortality to them. The rest of the world, who had been alienated from the Gospel will, I believe, continue on the earth after Jesus' Return. Being that they are still mortal, they will still be infected with Sin and corruption, and will still die.

However, they will be able to succeed in ways in that age that mankind has not succeeded in the present age because Satan will be bound at Jesus' 2nd Coming. The knowledge of God will be more widely distributed than it is now, because less opposition to the Gospel will be tolerated.

At the end of the Millennial Age, Satan is released back into the world again, to bring mortal humanity back under his spell. Those who wish to rebel against God will feel emboldened by Satan's defiant spirit, though they may not be conscious that that's what it is.

They will sense a vulnerability in God's Kingdom, indicating the world has returned to the way it had been previously. And those who wish to rebel against God will have their opportunity to do so.

Then God will bring final judgment upon the rebels, leading to widespread destruction and the need for a 2nd resurrection among those who chose not to rebel. This is my own Premill way of conceiving of it.

I have no interest in a contentious dialogue. My only wish is to answer questions that have been raised for the benefit of those who wish to know how I would answer them.

 

[WPM]

When Christ comes at his 2nd Coming for the Church, he will grant resurrection and physical immortality to them. The rest of the world, who had been alienated from the Gospel will, I believe, continue on the earth after Jesus' Return. Being that they are still mortal, they will still be infected with Sin and corruption, and will still die.

However, they will be able to succeed in ways in that age that mankind has not succeeded in the present age because Satan will be bound at Jesus' 2nd Coming. The knowledge of God will be more widely distributed than it is now, because less opposition to the Gospel will be tolerated.

At the end of the Millennial Age, Satan is released back into the world again, to bring mortal humanity back under his spell. Those who wish to rebel against God will feel emboldened by Satan's defiant spirit, though they may not be conscious that that's what it is.

They will sense a vulnerability in God's Kingdom, indicating the world has returned to the way it had been previously. And those who wish to rebel against God will have their opportunity to do so.

Then God will bring final judgment upon the rebels, leading to widespread destruction and the need for a 2nd resurrection among those who chose not to rebel. This is my own Premill way of conceiving of it.

I have no interest in a contentious dialogue. My only wish is to answer questions that have been raised for the benefit of those who wish to know how I would answer them.

There is a lot of this does not add up. So, who is this 3rd group that you are too wicked to be caught up and too righteous to be destroyed? Where does it teach that there is a group from "The rest of the world, who had been alienated from the Gospel" that "continue on the earth after Jesus' Return"?

• Romans 8:19-23 tells us that the whole of creation (not just ourselves,) is yearning for deliverance from the bondage of corruption – all the result of the Fall. This is shown here to happen on the day we are glorified.
• Luke 20:27-36 tells us that only those who are worthy inherit the age to come at the Lord’s return.
• 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that in order to be qualified to populate the new earth we need to be suitably changed. Only glorified believers can inherit the glorified earth.

 

[Davidpt]

Being that they are still mortal, they will still be infected with Sin and corruption, and will still die.

Are you meaning they can die during the millennium, or are you meaning Revelation 20:9 only? In the event it is the former, why do a lot of Premils think any mortals have to die during the millennium? Wasn't Adam a mortal? Did he not almost live an entire thousand years? When you think about it, not one single mortal person since the beginning of time has ever lived an entire thousand years. Why then would that still be true after the millennium is expired, that no mortal managed to live that entire thousand years, either?

The only death I see in Revelation 20 pertaining to mortals is in verse 9 when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. But that is after the thousand years not during it. I don't see anything in the text giving me the impression God is also devouring mortals during the millennium.

Keeping in mind, during the millennium no one is any longer deceived. Everyone knows who God is and knows that He exists. No one can deny it, the fact Jesus, meaning God, will be dwelling among them on the earth. After all, the millennium can't even begin until He returns to the earth first. Scripture doesn't have Him returning to the earth then going back to heaven, like views, such as Pretrib, such as SDA, have Him doing. When He sits upon His throne of glory, He does that upon the earth not in heaven.

When the thousand years expire, the mortals that were no longer deceived during the millennium, they are once again deceived, this time apparently thinking they can overthrow Christ and His saints that have been ruling over them. Of course though, you end up with mortals taking on immortals, as if the former even remotely have a chance of succeeding. Where Amils then see that idea as preposterous, that mortals would be battling immortals. Yet, that is exactly what we see in Revelation 19 though, mortals taking on immortals. Is it not?

Unless one wants to argue that Christ and His army are not immortals, and that the kings of the earth, and their armies are not mortals. Therefore, if Amils find it utterly preposterous that mortals would be taking on immortals after the millennium per Premil, they should find it equally preposterous in Revelation 19 since that is what that account is depicting, mortals battling immortals.

 

[Davidpt]

There is al lot of this does not add up. So, who is this 3rd group that you are too wicked to be caught up and too righteous to be destroyed? Where does it teach that there is a group from "The rest of the world, who had been alienated from the Gospel" that "continue on the earth after Jesus' Return"?

• Romans 8:19-23 tells us that the whole of creation (not just ourselves,) is yearning for deliverance from the bondage of corruption – all the result of the Fall. This is shown here to happen on the day we are glorified.
• Luke 20:27-36 tells us that only those who are worthy inherit the age to come at the Lord’s return.
• 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that in order to be qualified to populate the new earth we need to be suitably changed. Only glorified believers can inherit the glorified earth.

Apparently, Zechariah 14:16-19 is not in your Bible. Or that you perhaps don't think Zechariah 14 is holy writ as well. Or that you perhaps can explain what Zechariah 14:16-19 is pertaining to if not the thousand years following the 2nd coming. IOW, pertaining to the here and now, what can possibly explain those verses since those verses can't even come to pass until verse 12 has come to pass first.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

As if this has already been fulfilled.



Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee .


As if what I have underlined has already been fulfilled. As if Zechariah 14:16-19 can be meaning before those events are fulfilled rather than after.

Then compare what I have underlined in verse 5 with that of the following in Jude. Are you going to argue what I submitted per Jude that this has already been fulfilled as well? Clearly, undeniably, it is involving the same events that I have underlined in verse 5 above. Zechariah is then simply parroting something Enoch prophesied.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

[PinSeeker]

Zechariah 14:16-19... So, I've posted twice now, in short order, too, really, an explanation of this passage in relation to Revelation 20. And WPM gave it a "Like," which would presumably mean he (or she?) is in agreement with it. But it seems to be falling on deaf ears for some reason or another, because every reply since has been, in effect, "no Amil here has addressed this passage." Here it is yet again:

Zechariah 14:16-18 is in the midst of one of these kingdom prophecies which can have more than one application. Like certain parts of Revelation, it is about those who attack the Church and God’s judgment on such people, but it is also about the final judgment and salvation. Besides, it is in apocalyptic language, which is cryptic and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written. I say that “on that day” in Zechariah 14:20-21 is a reference to end times and to the final kingdom of God. There is little doubt that this is an apocalyptic description of heaven. As for Zechariah 14:16-18, this, like in most of Revelation, is a prophecy about the current “Church age.” It appears to be a reference to people who would oppose the Church. The use of the Feast of Tabernacle is intended for us to think of being in a relationship with God. Verse 18 seems to be a statement that those who do not repent and become part of the Church will be judged. So, although Zechariah 14:20-21 seems to be about heaven, Zechariah 14:16-19 is about the time between when the Church was established and when Jesus will come back. Which we are in the midst of now. But again, there are allusions and implications here to Christ's return and the final Judgment.

Grace and peace to all.