Isaiah 65:17 vs. Revelation 21:1. How many NHNEs does that equal?

[GRACE ambassador]

ONE nhne?

Yes, but Misunderstanding because we can all 'claim' we are "following The Holy Spirit"?

How about obeying Certain Written Bible study rules that would go along with that 'following',
for understanding, eh?

Amen.

ONE example:

 

[WPM]

NHNE meaning new heavens and a new earth, in the event that is not clear to some what the initials are meaning.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

It only equals one not two instead. And Revelation 21:1 alone undeniably proves it. How so? Like this, for one.

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

Obviously, nothing precedes a first. And if the first heaven and the first earth that were passed away is not meaning this present heaven and present earth, are we just living in a fairy tale then, that there is not literally a first earth, meaning this present earth, before there is a new earth?

Unless Isaiah 65:17 is meaning the same new heaven and new earth Revelation 21:1 is meaning, we have no choice but to understand the latter like such---for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away. Now we have made nonsense out of the text rather than sense, since it is plainly obvious that the first heaven and the first earth can only be meaning this present heaven and present earth.

So why is it then when I propose, me being a Premil and all, that the NHNE begins with the thousand years, that there are then Premils telling me no, that that can't be so, the fact Revelation 21 indicates the NHNE follow after the great white throne judgment? Why is it then, that these same Premils insist Isaiah 65:17 is involving the thousand years then contradict that by insisting the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years, after the great white throne judgment? lol

One argument is, if one compares Isaiah 65:20 to Revelation 21:4, the former involves death the latter doesn't. Well, now we are back to where we started from then, meaning the title of this thread, keeping in mind Revelation 21:1 alone already proves that there is only one NHNE not two, for the reasons I argued.

I will stop here for now since the OP is getting somewhat lengthy already.

Well put. If you dig deeper into the Hebrew it explains the death issue better.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

This is Old Testament verbiage that describes eternity to the Old Testament listener. It is telling us: no one is going to age! This relates to the new heaven and new earth not some supposed future millennium – that will never happen.

The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of aging and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

 

[WPM]

The real question for you ought to be, why are you following an old doctrine of the 2nd century A.D. Gnostics which were made up of occultists from the pagan Greeks? That's who got 2nd century Gnostic doctrines like Amillennialism started, which is what you are actually pushing, while trying to deceive with saying you are Premill.

You show an ignorance of history.

Commodianus, who wrote between AD 251 and 258, is the first orthodox Premillennialist to clearly and unambiguously state that there will be mortal beings in a future millennium that will join in marriage and enjoy sexual relations, producing offspring. But importantly, he limits this reality to the righteous alone (those “who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist”).

From heaven will descend the city in the first resurrection; this is what we may tell of such a celestial fabric. We shall arise again to Him, who have been devoted to Him. And they shall be incorruptible, even already living without death. And neither will there be any grief nor any groaning in that city. They shall come also who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years. There are prepared all the revenues of the earth, because the earth renewed without end pours forth abundantly. Therein are no rains; no cold comes into the golden camp. No sieges as now, nor rapines, nor does that city crave the light of a lamp. It shines from its Founder. Moreover, Him it obeys; in breadth 12,000 furlongs and length and depth. It levels its foundation in the earth, but it raises its head to heaven. In the city before the doors, moreover, sun and moon shall shine; he who is evil is hedged up in torment, for the sake of the nourishment of the righteous. But from the thousand years God will destroy all those evils (The Instructor, Chapter 46).​

Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, whereupon he will use his baleful influence successfully on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. Victorinus concisely submits:

And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1).

This is the sum total of information we have on this supposed future uprising. Victorinus is markedly vague and succinct on this matter. He doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. While Victorinus makes a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he didn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.

His comments are ambiguous to say the least. This is issue that the early Chiliast clearly felt uncomfortable with. Surely, he is not saying that “the nations which will have served Antichrist” inherit and then overrun a future millennial earth. Is he referring to a retrospective cause for Satan’s release? It is so hard to say. We have so little to go on.

Lactantius would later add more meat on the bones. He was from Africa and is the first to go into any sizeable and real recognizable detail on the subject. His main work – the Epitome of the Divine Institutes – was believed to have been first published between AD 304 and AD 311. It is amazing, allowing for the amount of Chiliast writings we still possess, for there to be such a dearth of detail up until Lactantius in the late 3rd century. In his writings, he first of all describes Satan’s binding and the reason for such:

They who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges. But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery. About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter XXIV).​

He continues:

We have said, a little before, that it will come to pass at the commencement of the sacred reign, that the prince of the devils will be bound by God. But he also, when the thousand years of the kingdom, that is, seven thousand of the world, shall begin to be ended, will be loosed afresh, and being sent forth from prison, will go forth and assemble all the nations, which shall then be trader the dominion of the righteous, that they may make war against the holy city; and there shall be collected together from all the world an innumerable company of the nations, and shall besiege and surround the city. Then the last anger of God shall come upon the nations, and shall utterly destroy them; and first He shall shake the earth most violently, and by its motion the mountains of Syria shall be rent, and the hills shall sink down precipitously, and the walls of all cities shall fall, and God shall cause the sun to stand, so that he set not for three days, and shall set it on fire; and excessive heat and great burning shall descend upon the hostile and impious people, and showers of brim stone, and hailstones, and drops of fire; and their spirits shall melt through the heat, and their bodies shall be bruised by the hail, and they shall smite one another with the sword. The mountains shall be filled with carcasses, and the plains shall be covered with bones; but the people of God during those three days shall be concealed under caves of the earth, until the anger of God against the nations and the last judgment shall be ended (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter XXVI).​

Here, the evil one, is depicted as gathering the nations together at the end of a forthcoming millennium to launch and assault upon the people of God. He adds

When the thousand years shall be fulfilled, and the prince of the demons loosed, the nations will rebel against the righteous, and an innumerable multitude will come to storm the city of the saints. Then the last judgment of God will come to pass against the nations (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter LXXII).​

One of the most contradictory early Church writers is Lactantius from Africa.

His main work – the Epitome of the Divine Institutes – was believed to have been first published between AD 304 and AD 311 (earlychristianwritings.com). His confusion may be explained by the fact that he relied heavily upon the writings of the pagan Sibyl prophetesses in his works. In one breath he seems to genuinely want to have a perfect earth that has been purged from the wicked and all wickedness but in the next breath, a few chapters later, Lactantius seems to be teaching the opposite. Whether this was necessitated to accommodate the teaching of Sibyl writings or whether they aligned with what he thought is not clear. His prominent mentioning of them in his writings reveals a deep dependence upon their teaching. This is seen in these comments:

Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges. But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 24).​

This is where the orthodox roots of early Premillennialism manifest. Allowance is finally made for the wicked and Satan to populate the earth that follows the second coming. Up until now that was rejected.

 

[WPM]

NHNE meaning new heavens and a new earth, in the event that is not clear to some what the initials are meaning.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

It only equals one not two instead. And Revelation 21:1 alone undeniably proves it. How so? Like this, for one.

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

Obviously, nothing precedes a first. And if the first heaven and the first earth that were passed away is not meaning this present heaven and present earth, are we just living in a fairy tale then, that there is not literally a first earth, meaning this present earth, before there is a new earth?

Unless Isaiah 65:17 is meaning the same new heaven and new earth Revelation 21:1 is meaning, we have no choice but to understand the latter like such---for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away. Now we have made nonsense out of the text rather than sense, since it is plainly obvious that the first heaven and the first earth can only be meaning this present heaven and present earth.

So why is it then when I propose, me being a Premil and all, that the NHNE begins with the thousand years, that there are then Premils telling me no, that that can't be so, the fact Revelation 21 indicates the NHNE follow after the great white throne judgment? Why is it then, that these same Premils insist Isaiah 65:17 is involving the thousand years then contradict that by insisting the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years, after the great white throne judgment? lol

One argument is, if one compares Isaiah 65:20 to Revelation 21:4, the former involves death the latter doesn't. Well, now we are back to where we started from then, meaning the title of this thread, keeping in mind Revelation 21:1 alone already proves that there is only one NHNE not two, for the reasons I argued.

I will stop here for now since the OP is getting somewhat lengthy already.

Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

It is so important to let Scripture speak for itself. In doing that we are able to accurately comprehend the inspired detail pertaining to any truth or event. This is never more needed than when it comes to the return of Christ and what follows this occurrence. There is no other subject where men force their own bias beliefs upon the sacred text more than eschatology. It is breathtaking how most of the normal necessary accepted hermeneutical rules are ignored or discarded to fit man’s theology on end-times. There is therefore no other topic where such great diligent needs to be employed and strong corroboration must be brought to the table.

When we look at this event before us, as we take the text literally, and as we interpret Scripture in its most plain and obvious sense, we immediately recognize, nothing precedes the first of anything. In this text, we see that the first heaven and the first earth that we currently populate (and which is blighted with the awful consequences of the curse), are not changed until the new heaven and new earth arrive. This expressly occurs after the millennium in Revelation 21.

Various other Scriptures show that to be at the second coming of Christ. Many others inspired texts demonstrate that what awaits us when Jesus comes is not a continuation of rebellion, corruption and the wicked but an elimination of the same and an eternal deliverance from their devastating influence. This is continually presented in the sacred text as a climactic event.

While this teaching is found prominently and clearly throughout the Word, this doesn’t stop some Bible students creating an additional age in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come to accommodate their understanding of Revelation 20. Premillennialists insert Isaiah 65 into a supposed future millennium after the second coming and 1000 years+ before the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22. They do this because of their chronological interpretation of Revelation 19 to Revelation 22. In doing this, they invent a 3-age structure unknown to Scripture.

Premillennialists locate the new heaven and new earth cited in Isaiah 65:17-21, Matthew 24:35-44 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 at the beginning the millennium but they place the new heaven and new earth mentioned in Revelation 21:1-5 after the millennium. Talk about confusion.

To secure this, they are forced to create 2 old heavens and 2 old earths. They also devise 2 new heavens and 2 new earths. However, the fact is: there is only one old heavens and old earth. There is also no Mark 1 new heaven and new earth at the beginning of the millennium and Mark 2 new heaven and new earth after the millennium and Satan’s little season is over. Mark 1 is sin-cursed and corrupt, Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt. These could not be more diverse and conflicting. However, Scripture knows nothing of such a theory. This is total error and creates utter confusion for the genuine Bible student. This does not add up.

The major problem for Premillennialists with all this, according to Revelation, apart from it not adding up, is: our current “first (or old) heavens” and “first (or old) earth” are not removed till Revelation 21:1-5, a period after the millennium is finished.

This can only occur if one is to reject the literal rendering of the text before us and ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.

The next absolute we know from interpreting Scripture with Scripture is that there is no sin or corruption in the new heavens or on the new earth.

 

[PinSeeker]

I completely agree with you, that Christ's Return *precedes* the Millennium in the Bible.

Ah. Why, Randy?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ah. Why, Randy?

Grace and peace to you.

As I said, I don't claim to understand Millennial teaching in Rev 20. However, there is much in the OT prophecies that suggest the mortal world must reach a place of fulfillment. This was being said of Israel in the OT era, because at that time only Israel lived in covenant relationship with God.

But in the Gospel era, the offered covenant relationship with God has been expanded from Israel to include many nations that have become Christian, to some degree or other. And so, both Israel and the Christian nations must, I feel, achieve a certain level of fulfillment in accord with the OT prophecies. That has never been fully achieved, and the Millennium appears to be the appointed time for this to happen, since it is at that time that Satan is bound.

 

[WPM]

I feel, achieve a certain level of fulfillment in accord with the OT prophecies. That has never been fully achieved, and the Millennium appears to be the appointed time for this to happen, since it is at that time that Satan is bound.

This is one of the major differences between Amils and Premils. Premils are fixated on the physical, visible, temporal, racial and earthly. This colors their view of Revelation 20, and some other New Testament Scriptures. Amils see the Old Testament physical promised land as a temporary type of Christ - the eternal fulfilment, reality, substance and inheritance. Old Testament Scripture is captivated with Christ, not real estate in Palestine. This is the overriding focus of Old Testament Scripture from the Garden of Eden to the book of Malachi. He is the focus of the New Testament from beginning to end. Many Premils miss, dilute, diminish or reject the spiritual fulfillment of the Old Testament promises in the introduction of the kingdom of God by the Messiah. Israel's Messiah has come. The kingdom has already spiritually arrived. Jesus perfectly fulfilled His mission. He conquered every foe! He is now victoriously reigning over creation and His new creation. He has been overseeing the invasion of Satan's territory with the Gospel for 2000 years ago. What awaits us after this age (the last days) is the eternal state (the new heavens and new earth). We are not going to have a rerun of this age. Sin, sinners, disease and decay, dying and crying, will all be eliminated. Christ is coming as judge. Men will receive their eternal abode. This is the end of the kingdom of darkness.

The book of Hebrews shows the abolition of the old covenant arrangement and its replacement by the new superior covenant. It is absorbed with the superiority of Christ. Hebrews 8:6 declares: “now hath he [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”

The old covenant is gone forever. It has been replaced by a new and better covenant. There is absolutely no distinction between Jew and Gentile today in Christ. The old is defunct. What is more, there is not one single teaching from Christ, Paul, Peter or any of the New Testament writers that remotely suggests the Old Testament land promises, ordinances or traditions lasted any longer than the cross. The focus is Christ’s redemptive work, and the scope is extended to the world.

We have moved:

• From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
• From the imperfect to the perfect
• From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
• From the physical to the spiritual
• From the external to the internal
• From the natural to the supernatural
• From the temporary to the eternal
• From the earthly to the heavenly
• From the national to the international
• From the conditional to the unconditional

The real land expectation of Abraham was not physical but spiritual, not earthly but heavenly. Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another’s, or not one’s own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders, and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. The children of Israel were indeed “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” This world was not their home. Basically, they were strangers in a strange land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 is clearly talking about Old Testament earthly Israel. It is talking about the ancient promised land. The text is talking about the patriarchs’ sojourn in the earthly Canaan land. It notably describes Abraham’s experience there as “a stranger in a foreign country.” There is no other interpretation. It also chronicles his honorable son Isaac and grandson Jacob’s experiences to be the same as his own. This totally blows apart the premillennialist fixation with the Old Testament promised land. This shows that physical Israel and its ancient boundaries were never intended to be the true Promised Land or the eternal inheritance. It confirms that it was never envisioned to be the eternal possession of natural Israel or God’s people. It was clearly conditional and temporal land.

Hebrews 11:9 tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “the heirs with him of the same promise” (Hebrews 11:9). What promise? The next verse explains: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10). The Patriarchs eyes were on higher, better and longer-lasting things than Canaan. Their eyes were on the heavenly city that Christ is preparing for those that are His. Their eyes were upon eternal matters. Their focus was heavenly. Even though they were promised an earthly piece of real estate their hope was always heavenly. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem. The possession of this city has been the goal of every believer from the beginning. Abraham was looking forward to a heavenly country and to a city whose builder and maker is God.

 

[WPM]

As I said, I don't claim to understand Millennial teaching in Rev 20. However, there is much in the OT prophecies that suggest the mortal world must reach a place of fulfillment. This was being said of Israel in the OT era, because at that time only Israel lived in covenant relationship with God.

But in the Gospel era, the offered covenant relationship with God has been expanded from Israel to include many nations that have become Christian, to some degree or other. And so, both Israel and the Christian nations must, I feel, achieve a certain level of fulfillment in accord with the OT prophecies. That has never been fully achieved, and the Millennium appears to be the appointed time for this to happen, since it is at that time that Satan is bound.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

It wasn’t just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that were strangers in their ethnic homeland; so were all the rest of the old covenant saints who populated national Israel. Hebrews 11:12 describes Abraham’s natural seed as “so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. the sand of the sea.” And even though most of them at some juncture populated the area promised from the Euphrates River to the River of Egypt, the Hebrew writer testifies to the fact that please quit Old Testament giants died “not having received the promises.” The Scripture say that they “seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them.” What is more, they “confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”

Obviously the taking of the natural, earthly, temporal land was not the end-all and be-all of their existence. It was not what it was all about. There was something better, greater, higher and longer-lasting that was promised to them that would fulfil Israel’s deepest desires – something larger than real estate in the Middle East. It was the Messiah Jesus Christ and the perfected state that comes at His appearing in the form of the new corrupt-free, sin-free, death-free, wicked-free, eternal perfect earth.

When Hebrews says: God has “prepared” for them (the Old Testament saints) a city (Hebrews 11:16), it is not talking about earthly carnal man-made Jerusalem, that has rejected and killed Christ, the prophets and the Apostles. It is not talking about a city that is denounced under the new covenant by the Holy Spirit as “spiritually … called Sodom and Egypt” (Revelation 11:8) and is further condemned as being “in bondage with her children” in Galatians 4:25. It is rather speaking of the heavenly city, which we belong to today, which is “free.” This is the only city that God is preparing! It is unbiblical and nonsensical to believe that he is preparing earthly Jerusalem for the saints. The new Jerusalem is being prepared in heaven, as we can see through many Scriptures.

It is not therefore all about soil in Palestine that Scripture tells us, is about to go up in a puff of smoke. It is about something greater and higher. It is about the heavenly, the perfect, the fulfilment and the eternal. Hebrews 11:14 concludes: “For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.” No one could surely dispute, we are looking here at another country, apart from Israel.

Hebrews 11:15-16 continues: “And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out (namely Israel), they might have had opportunity to have returned.” But no! It was not about natural earthly Palestine. It was about somewhere better. The Hebrew writer wrote, “they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

This couldn’t be clearer and more explicit. The country the Old and New Testament saints looked for, the true promise that man anticipated, was not earthly but heavenly, not temporal but eternal, not visible but invisible, not physical but spiritual, not corrupt but incorrupt, not natural but supernatural.

When does this perfect and lasting heavenly country arrive, which the saints will possess? At the second coming. This corrupt earth will pass away and be replaced by a “better country.” This is the eternal residence of the redeemed (Jew and Gentile, Old Testament and New Testament saint, free and bond, rich and poor). Scripture after Scripture shows the termination of all corruption, death, sin, the wicked and Satan to be at the second coming.

The land was only ever intended to be a temporary residence, not permanent. We see the desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom lived in earthly Israel and had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved.

 

[PinSeeker]

As I said, I don't claim to understand Millennial teaching in Rev 20.

But you must have some rationale for believing what you do, right?

However, there is much in the OT prophecies that suggest the mortal world must reach a place of fulfillment. This was being said of Israel in the OT era, because at that time only Israel lived in covenant relationship with God.

Much agreed. I would submit to you, Randy, that Jeremiah prophesies of the millennial period/kingdom throughout chapter 31 of his work, especially verses 31-34:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant that they broke, though I was their Husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put My law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”​

But in the Gospel era, the offered covenant relationship with God has been expanded from Israel to include many nations that have become Christian, to some degree or other.

Hmmm... Well, there are no "Christian nations," except for Israel ~ God's Israel ~ which includes people from every tongue, tribe, and nation (which, as I said recently, should not conjure images of a nation-state or government or geographical land mass), all those who are in Christ.

And so, both Israel and the Christian nations must, I feel, achieve a certain level of fulfillment in accord with the OT prophecies. That has never been fully achieved, and the Millennium appears to be the appointed time for this to happen, since it is at that time that Satan is bound.

Now see, I agree with this ~ except for the part about Christian nations. I submit to you that it's all about the building of God's Israel, and it's described vividly by Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22 ~

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."​

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

 

[Davidpt]

Now see, I agree with this ~ except for the part about Christian nations.

Maybe not currently, but eventually there will be Christian nations throughout the planet, the fact new Jerusalem is not meaning the entire planet, therefore, nations have to exist outside of it, obviously. If one argues that the new Jerusalem is meaning the entire planet, to be consistent then, one needs to argue the same about paradise on earth in the beginning, meaning the garden of Eden, that it was meaning the entire planet as well.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden ; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden , and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God .

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem , coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life , which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Initially the tree of life was in the paradise of Eden. In the future it will be in the midst of paradise yet again, but this time it is the new Jerusalem rather than Eden. And once again, the garden of Eden wasn't meaning the entire planet nor will the new Jerusalem be meaning the entire planet. Therefore, nations have to logically exist outside of new Jerusalem, except when you try and tell an Amil that, most of them see it as nonsensical rather than logical, apparently.

As if, when Christ returns, rather them Him dwelling in some region in particular, the region where Jerusalem is located, in this case, He is instead physically dwelling eveywhere on the planet at the same time, even though Scripture never depicts Him in that manner. "physically' being the keyword here, as in bodily not spiritually. Or that He will be dwelling in north america, for example, rather than in the middle east. Wonder why He was born in the middle east rather than in north america then? Probably because He is once again going to take up residence where He was born, thus the new Jerusalem occupying that region.

And since north america, for example, can't possibly be in the same geographical location Christ was born in, that means the nations pertaining to north america will be outside of new Jerusalem, obviously. Are we then going to conclude something preposterous, that during all eternity this planet is never populated with ppl throughout the globe, but instead, everyone alive on the planet, they are living in the new Jerusalem in the middle east? Thus the rest of the planet is a ghost planet, so to speak.

And finally there is this, where some Amils appear to be ignoring even though it is clearly recorded within new Jerusalem context.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But you must have some rationale for believing what you do, right?

Yes.

Much agreed. I would submit to you, Randy, that Jeremiah prophesies of the millennial period/kingdom throughout chapter 31 of his work, especially verses 31-34:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant that they broke, though I was their Husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put My law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”​

Yes, and there are many more prophecies of Israel's final state in which they will "never more" be molested by their neighbors and enemies. Instead, they will be productive as a nation and enjoy God's favor forever.

Hmmm... Well, there are no "Christian nations," except for Israel ~ God's Israel ~ which includes people from every tongue, tribe, and nation (which, as I said recently, should not conjure images of a nation-state or government or geographical land mass), all those who are in Christ.

Yes, I get disagreement a lot on this point. It is thought by many that the Gentiles are actually joined to become an enlarged, spiritual Israel, rather, than fulfilled nations in their own right, just as the Jews had Israel as their own nation.

I can understand how you view it, as the loss of a distinction among ethnicities and nationalities so that God sees only one new "Israel."

However, I don't see it that way. I see that God promised Abraham not just one, but *many* nations. And so, just like Israel became a "nation of God," so now in the NT era many nations have become "Christian nations."

This is denied for the same reason many Christians have denied that Israel will ever become a "chosen nation" again. Christian nations, like Israel, have fallen into disarray and into backsliding. They do not appear, over the long stretch, that they were ever totally "Christian."

Now see, I agree with this ~ except for the part about Christian nations. I submit to you that it's all about the building of God's Israel, and it's described vividly by Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22 ~

Yes, we'll have to disagree about the role distinct "nations" play in the Millennium. Israel is focused on in OT Prophecy of the Millennial Age primarily because at that time only Israel was a "nation of God."

But now that many nations have enjoyed a similar status as "Christian nations" I think we should envision a Millennial Age in which "many nations" enjoy prosperity and freedom from molestation, just as was promised to Israel.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."​

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

And to you, as well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The land was only ever intended to be a temporary residence, not permanent. We see the desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom lived in earthly Israel and had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved.

I see it a little different, although there is still substantial agreement on what is important. When you separate heavenly and earthly things by category, it creates a kind of positive/negative duality. And I can't go that far.

I don't see the "earthly" as a necessarily "negative" thing. Without earthly things, heavenly values lose their meaning.

So here's where I take things a bit differently than you do. I see Abraham coming out of Ur, a corrupt earthly city, desiring to find an earthly country that was in God's will. This gave Canaan a heavenly value for Abraham, because it was an earthly country offered by God according to His own will.

So there is nothing negative about Israel's possession of Canaan, assuming they take possession of the land through obedience, and not for some corrupt, covetous motive. On the other hand, I would agree with you that this land held only "temporary" value, because in Israel's history, the people did go corrupt, and they lost their land.

So for me, Christ's redemption meant not the spoiling of the land as much as a means of retaining the land as an *eternal* possession. Israel's hope was to get beyond the "temporary" stage to the "eternal" stage.

On the other hand, I admit I have very little understand of how the earth must be construed and rearranged in order for it to house the nations forever. The "New Earth" is purely speculative to me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is one of the major differences between Amils and Premils. Premils are fixated on the physical, visible, temporal, racial and earthly.

Not fixated.

Many Premils miss, dilute, diminish or reject the spiritual fulfillment of the Old Testament promises in the introduction of the kingdom of God by the Messiah.

I don't think "many Premills" reject the "spiritual fulfillment." They just see a "New Earth" as an integral part of "spiritual fulfillment."

The kingdom has already spiritually arrived.

Premills do not believe that the Kingdom "has arrived." Jesus said that the Kingdom is "near"--not "here."

We are not going to have a rerun of this age.

The Premill concept of the Millennial Age is not a "rerun." Satan is bound, and though the earth remains mortal, it is temporariliy free of the influence of Satan. And Christ's Kingdom in some way rules, which is greater than any rule by Davidic kingdoms or Christian kingdoms.

But yes, there might be a "rerun" when Satan is unleashed upon a still-mortal world after the Millennial age.

Sin, sinners, disease and decay, dying and crying, will all be eliminated.

Ultimately yes. But when mortality actually comes to an end is the question in my thinking? It certainly will come to an end for those who are raised in immortal bodies at Christ's Coming!

The book of Hebrews shows the abolition of the old covenant arrangement and its replacement by the new superior covenant. It is absorbed with the superiority of Christ. Hebrews 8:6 declares: “now hath he [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”

We both agree that the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant. That does not imply that it is a "realized eschatological Kingdom" at present.

• From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
• From the imperfect to the perfect

You have a duality between Heaven and Earth. I do not.

However, I do agree that the earth presently is a temporal earth, whereas our hope is fixed on an eternal earth. "Heaven" simply represents "God." Earth is to be our eternal home.

I addressed some of your other points in my previous post to you.

The Amill/Premill debate is of marginal importance to me because it speculates on future things that we do not experience today. That's possibly why God has let this difference of opinion exist in the Church for eons? Our present experience, I assume, is the same for all true Christians, no matter what our eschatology is in this regard?

My central focus on it is largely to show that God's word must be fulfilled in all that He promised. And since I believe His promises concern our future life *on earth,* I think there has to be a Millennial Age where this actually transpires. Have a nice day. I guess we'll find out when the trumpet sounds?

 

[Davidpt]

For the most part since Amils are notorious for making nonsense out of numerous OT prophecies by trying to explain them away, or trying to make them mean something they don't mean, they are not going to grasp any of the following, either.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This is meaning right before Christ returns in the end of this age, and the text states---for all nations shall come and worship before thee. Obviously, the saved can't be meant here since the saved are already doing these things, and that the vials of wrath are poured out upon the unsaved worshiping the beast, not the saved as well. Except Amil has no one remaining of the nations once Christ returns, therefore no one to fulfill this---for all nations shall come and worship before thee--post the vials of wrath. Amil has everyone except for the saved, dead, judged, and burning in the LOF, thus no one to apply this to---for all nations shall come and worship before thee.

If we allow the OT to be holy writ as well, Zechariah 14, for one, has an answer for how all nations shall come and worship before thee, post the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

As if any of the above is meaning prior to the 2nd coming rather than after the 2nd coming. As if none of this begins to fulfill what is recorded in Revelation 15:4---for all nations shall come and worship before thee.

Obviously then, at least to we Premils, Amil has to be rejected since Amil can't explain Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, since it is meaning post the 2nd coming, except Amils have no era of time these things can fit in post the 2nd coming. Thus they don't have a solution for Revelation 15:4--all nations shall come and worship before thee--since that is obviously pertaining to the nations that refuse to do that, not the nations that are gladly already doing it. Are Amils going to argue that when the vials of wrath begin being poured out, that the 2nd coming is still decades or centuries away, rather than it being literally at the door? Keeping in mind, Revelation 15:4 is clearly involving context pertaining to the vials of wrath.

 

[PinSeeker]

For the most part since Amils are notorious for making nonsense out of numerous OT prophecies by trying to explain them away, or trying to make them mean something they don't mean, they are not going to grasp any of the following, either.

LOL! Well, I would state it in a much more congenial, good-spirited way, but basically would say the same things the other way around; this is precisely what premillennialism does. Anyone can "grasp" anything, even two or more things that are diametrically opposed, but acceptance is of course another matter altogether. It is certainly possible to "grasp" a number of things but then reject them.

But you seem to be avoiding me, except maybe for hurling a few potshots at me from afar (as if I'm not right here), and that's fine with me.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This is meaning right before Christ returns in the end of this age, and the text states---for all nations shall come and worship before thee.

Certainly, it is possible to fear the Lord and glorify His name now, for He alone is holy. And, David, it is certainly possible to come before the Lord and worship before Him, now, also. God is present everywhere (omnipresent). There is an eternal aspect here, too, though...

Obviously then, at least to we Premils, Amil has to be rejected...

Yes, by premills, sure. :)

since Amil can't explain Zechariah 14:16-19...

Oh, it most certainly can be (and I have here), but it's not always accepted by ammillennial believers. So it goes.

, for one, since it is meaning post the 2nd coming, except Amils have no era of time these things can fit in post the 2nd coming.

Well, regarding "post the 2nd coming," yes... :) Zechariah 14:16-18 is in the midst of one of these kingdom prophecies which can have more than one application. Like certain parts of Revelation, it is about those who attack the Church and God’s judgment on such people, but it is also about the final judgment and salvation. Besides, it is in apocalyptic language which is cryptic and must be understood from symbolism. I say that “on that day” in Zechariah 14:20-21 is a reference to end times and to the final kingdom of God. There is little doubt that this is an apocalyptic description of heaven. As for Zechariah 14:16-18, this, like in most of Revelation, is a prophecy about the current “Church age.” It appears to be a reference to people who would oppose the Church. The use of the Feast of Tabernacle is intended for us to think of being in a relationship with God. Verse 18 seems to be a statement that those who do not repent and become part of the Church will be judged. So, although Zechariah 14:20-21 seems to be about heaven, Zechariah 14:16-19 appears to be about the time between when the Church was established and when Jesus will come back. Which we are in the midst of now. But again, there are allusions and implications here to Christ's return and the final Judgment.

Yes, you, as an premillennialist, may very well reject that outright, and that's fine with me. But to say amillennialists "have no era of time these things can fit in" is ridiculous.

Thus they don't have a solution for Revelation 15:4--all nations shall come and worship before thee--since that is obviously pertaining to the nations that refuse to do that, not the nations that are gladly already doing it.

This also is about the time between when the Church was established and when Jesus will come back. Which we are in the midst of now.

Are Amils going to argue that when the vials of wrath begin being poured out, that the 2nd coming is still decades or centuries away, rather than it being literally at the door? Keeping in mind, Revelation 15:4 is clearly involving context pertaining to the vials of wrath.

Trying to put everything in Revelation in strict chronological order with each successive chapter is an understandable, but terrible misreading of John's Revelation.

Are Amils going to argue that when the vials of wrath begin being poured out, that the 2nd coming is still decades or centuries away, rather than it being literally at the door?

So preoccupied with time; it should not be. Regarding Revelation, as I have said, it consists of 7 concurrent histories, each from a different perspective and with a different focus... much like the creation narratives of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, which are not two different creation narratives, but one ~ Genesis 2 ~ is much more focused on one part of God's creative act, the creation of man, than is Genesis 1, where the focus is on the complete act, of which the creation of man is only a part.

Sigh...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes.

Yes, and there are many more prophecies of Israel's final state in which they will "never more" be molested by their neighbors and enemies. Instead, they will be productive as a nation and enjoy God's favor forever.

Well, yes, and this will be in eternity, the age to come, in which there will be no more sin or death.

Yes, I get disagreement a lot on this point. It is thought by many that the Gentiles are actually joined to become an enlarged, spiritual Israel, rather, than fulfilled nations in their own right, just as the Jews had Israel as their own nation.

The Israel of God never was, is not now, and never will be a nation-state. Though not complete yet, it now includes people of every tongue, tribe, and people-group... all those in Christ.

I can understand how you view it, as the loss of a distinction among ethnicities and nationalities so that God sees only one new "Israel."

God has always only had one people, and always will, consisting of His elect.

However, I don't see it that way.

Understood.

I see that God promised Abraham not just one, but *many* nations.

Hmm. So, God said to Abraham, "I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth" (Genesis 13), but regarding a nation or nations, He said to Abraham, "I will make of you a great nation," which is not plural, but singular.

This is denied for the same reason many Christians have denied that Israel will ever become a "chosen nation" again. Christian nations, like Israel, have fallen into disarray and into backsliding. They do not appear, over the long stretch, that they were ever totally "Christian."

We're not talking about earthly nations, here, Randy. We're talking about the Israel of God. Yes, no nation on earth was ever totally Christian, or really even close, I would say.

I think we should envision a Millennial Age in which "many nations" enjoy prosperity and freedom from molestation, just as was promised to Israel.

This is the promise of eternity, Randy. One great day, there will be no more sin, and no more death.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[WPM]

Not fixated.

Unfortunately, that is what many Premillennialists focus in on and want to talk about. Check any end-time board and you will see the evidence. They struggle to let go of the old covenant and enter into the new. Many are fixated with natural Christ-rejecting Israel. They deem them "God's chosen people" when the reality is, they reject Christ, and are therefore children of the devil. This is totally unbiblical. Many of its adherents go even further, making controversial sweeping statements like: “if America ever stopped supporting ethnic Israel then it would be finished” or “God will bless those who bless national Israel and curse those who curse national Israel.”

There would definitely be less misunderstanding if they took the time to openly and objectively read Genesis 12:1-3 for themselves. They would quickly discover that the promise made was not given to Israel, or to the Jews, but was directly promised to Abraham himself. Neither Israel nor the Jews even existed at that time. The ancient promise given to the patriarch actually predicted the eventual widening out of the blessing of God from Abraham to His spiritual seed throughout the nations.

Most are so fixated with the old covenant arrangement that they dogmatically promote the resurrection of the old covenant including the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, the restarting of the abolished animal sacrifices, and the resuming of earthly high priest’s office, as part of a God-ordained arrangement. This is totally unscriptural and an offence to Christ and the cross-work.

Orthodox Amils focus in on Christ and the new covenant. They accept the removal of the kingdom from ethnic Israel and its current ongoing manifestation through the transnational NT Church.

I don't think "many Premills" reject the "spiritual fulfillment." They just see a "New Earth" as an integral part of "spiritual fulfillment."

They reject the spiritual fulfillment of multiple OT passages with their naturalistic (carnal) mindset. They miss the fact that the OT prophets were looking through a glass darkly. Even those passages that are expressly said to relate to "the lasts days" are dumped into some supposed future millennium - unknown to the sacred pages until 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, in the most symbolic setting in Scripture. That should bring immediate red flags to the objective Bible scholar. That exposes their commitment to man's teaching over the actual literal teaching of the inspired Word. This is why we need to let the Bible speak for itself. It doesn't need explained away. That is where error kicks in.

1 Peter 1:10-12 confirms: “Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

Jesus was the focus, expectancy and hope for the Old Testament prophets. The prophets spoke often of Him, albeit with veiled and imperfect insights. We know that the old covenant prophets were looking forward through a glazed glass to a new arrangement that they couldn't fully comprehend. They did not have the full revelation we have. God spoke to the prophets of Israel in visions, dreams, parables and riddles. For example, we often come across have the phrase “in the visions” in the Old Testament. This was describing God revealing Himself and His truth to the prophets (Genesis 46:2, 2 Chronicles 9:29, 26:5, Job 4:13, Ezekiel 1:1, 8:3, 40:2, Daniel 2:28, 4:9–10, 13, 7:1, 7, 13 and 15).

Premills do not believe that the Kingdom "has arrived." Jesus said that the Kingdom is "near"--not "here."

This is where Premils err. They have to say that to justify their anticipated future millennial. If they free of that they would see the ongoing expansion of the kingdom as the prophets, Christ, and the NT writers taught.

Israel looked for a kingdom, and Christ brought it. The literalist Jews missed it as they had no concept of the spiritual nature of it. Daniel 2:34-35 says, "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Whilst we are looking at a literal prophecy and a literal truth we are looking at a literal metaphor. Stones don’t naturally grow into mountains. There is no doubt that we are looking at a spiritual prediction.

The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church in a small nation and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world covering all nations.

It is explicitly stated that the kingdom of God would be set up in the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel 2:44).

The prophet Daniel predicted this eternal kingdom, which would emanate from “the God of heaven” in Daniel 2:44, saying, “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Christ did not come to set up a kingdom that was limited to time, it would rather be an eternal kingdom that would last forever.

The prophet Daniel predicted this eternal kingdom, which would emanate from “the God of heaven” in Daniel 2:44, saying, “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Christ did not come to set up a kingdom that was limited to time, it would rather be an eternal kingdom that would last forever.

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12, “from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man (biazo) presseth into it.”

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

 

[WPM]

But yes, there might be a "rerun" when Satan is unleashed upon a still-mortal world after the Millennial age.

It is what Premils attribute to their millennium that descends into a farce and a failure. Premils attribute much to their millennium that is unknown to Revelation 20 or anywhere else in Scripture. The labeling on the goods doesn't line up with the goods. The boast doesn't tally with the reality. This age of Aquarius they teach with the majestic unchallenged righteous rule of Christ on earth, the removal of the curse and corruption, and the perfection of society that they portray is a fallacy. The wicked override this progressively perfected renewed earth at the end. What we are looking at is a semi-glorious/semi-corrupt kingdom that is half-liberated and half-bound. This undesirable mongrel earth is equally filled with righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and sinlessness, glorified saints and mortal rebels, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.

Amils never portray this age as perfect or blissful or harmonious, that happens when Jesus comes. Our millennium lines up with the here-and-now. The age to come that Amils anticipates lines up with Scripture, and is indeed perfect and victorious and will never end. It is free of sin, corruption, death, the devil, divorce, debt, despair and the wicked.

The Premil millennium has widespread feigned worship to Christ through their so-called future millennium. It has Christ deceived by multiple millions of charlatans making their way to Jerusalem to watch the slitting of throats of goats and lambs for sin futile useless offerings. It ends in anarchy, mutiny and war as billions turn against Christ in a global uprising of billions. We see the wholesale millennial evangelistic bust when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)? This whole proposal is a massive sham.

Premil has the saints being brought back to this world to witness all the corruption and debauchery that blights this current age. They do so (amazingly) in their glorified bodies for 1,000 years. Premil also has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued, sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global army Gog and Magog. This is so fanciful and contrary to Scripture. It will never happen. All because of a mistaken chronological reading of one chapter in Scripture located in the most obscure book in the Bible and the most hotly debated chapter in Scripture.

Ultimately yes. But when mortality actually comes to an end is the question in my thinking? It certainly will come to an end for those who are raised in immortal bodies at Christ's Coming!

When man fell all creation fell with him, when man is glorified, all of creation will be glorified with him. Creation is delivered from the curse by the fiery conflagration that regenerates this current earth and renews it to the state it was before the fall - free from, sin, wickedness, the wicked, death and wars (the awful plagues that continue to blight the Premil millennium).

Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.

We both agree that the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant. That does not imply that it is a "realized eschatological Kingdom" at present.

Yes, it does! Unfortunately, you constantly skip around the biblical evidence and replace it with your own non-scriptural opinions. Your posts are characterized by lack of Scripture. I wonder why? Because they lack scriptural warrant!

You have a duality between Heaven and Earth. I do not.

Please explain.

However, I do agree that the earth presently is a temporal earth, whereas our hope is fixed on an eternal earth. "Heaven" simply represents "God." Earth is to be our eternal home.

Yes, a regenerated new earth, not your corrupt and rebellious millennial earth.

I addressed some of your other points in my previous post to you.

Where?

The Amill/Premill debate is of marginal importance to me because it speculates on future things that we do not experience today. That's possibly why God has let this difference of opinion exist in the Church for eons? Our present experience, I assume, is the same for all true Christians, no matter what our eschatology is in this regard?

I agree!

My central focus on it is largely to show that God's word must be fulfilled in all that He promised. And since I believe His promises concern our future life *on earth,*

His Messianic promises relate to these current last day and the eternal state. Theologians across the board describe this as: "already/not yet."

I think there has to be a Millennial Age where this actually transpires. Have a nice day. I guess we'll find out when the trumpet sounds?

Again, this is your opinion. You have presented no Scripture to show this is required.

 

[Davidpt]

LOL! Well, I would state it in a much more congenial, good-spirited way, but basically would say the same things the other way around; this is precisely what premillennialism does. Anyone can "grasp" anything, even two or more things that are diametrically opposed, but acceptance is of course another matter altogether. It is certainly possible to "grasp" a number of things but then reject them.

If taken in context, I gave reasons why Amils will likely not grasp what follows---that being because Amils are notorious for making nonsense out of numerous OT prophecies by trying to explain them away, or trying to make them mean something they don't mean. For example Zechariah 14. Another example, Ezekiel 37:25. There are other examples as well, and instead of Amils making sense of what God through His prophets said, they make nonsense out of it.

Imagine reading Ezekiel 37:25, for example, before there was the NT, then taking those things to mean what Amils insist they mean. In particular, meaning this land where their fathers dwelt, this being where they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever. That this is just a lie, that it means something else instead, IOW, what Gentile Amils want it to mean, not what God wants it to mean. As if Gentile Amils know better than God.

But you seem to be avoiding me, except maybe for hurling a few potshots at me from afar (as if I'm not right here), and that's fine with me.

I was addressing Amil in general, not any particular Amil.

Oh, it most certainly can be (and I have here), but it's not always accepted by ammillennial believers. So it goes.

Do you recall where there are posts of yours where you did that? I would be interested in reading what you had to say about the subject. You never know, I might end up agreeing with you about some of it. For one, as long as you are not applying Zechariah 14:2 to 70 AD like most Amils typically do, we might find agreement there, for instance.

Yes, you, as an premillennialist, may very well reject that outright, and that's fine with me. But to say amillennialists "have no era of time these things can fit in" is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous for Premils to conclude that about Amil if they insist everything recorded in Zechariah 14 is meaning before the 2nd coming and that none of it is meaning after the 2nd coming. Clearly, some of it is involving post the 2nd coming and verse 5 alone proves it, that verse meaning the 2nd coming. Which then means the verses that follow, almost all of that is meaning post the 2nd coming.

Trying to put everything in Revelation in strict chronological order with each successive chapter is an understandable, but terrible misreading of John's Revelation.

Except I do not do that, though. For example, the 6th seal and 7th trumpet involve the 2nd coming. What is recorded from ch 13 through ch 18 is mainly meaning prior to the 2nd coming, ch 19 then pertaining again to the 2nd coming. But as to Revelation 15:4, chronology is irrelevant since we already know what time period it is involving. It is involving the vials of wrath and that the text says, Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Where it is then logical that the era of time pertaining to Zechariah 14:16-19 follows after the time of the vials of wrath. Except Amil has no one remaining of the nations that came against Jerusalem, they instead have every last one of them being bird food(Revelation 19:21), regardless that Zechariah 14:16 undeniably says there will be survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem.

No wonder then, what I did say about Amil, since Amils fit exactly what I said about them, to a T even. And that I showed some reasons as to why, above.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, yes, and this will be in eternity, the age to come, in which there will be no more sin or death.

The passages I read about this Jewish fulfillment seems to suggest a still-mortal world. It seems to be preliminary to the elimination of mortality, sickness, and death. Aging appears to still be happening.

The Israel of God never was, is not now, and never will be a nation-state. Though not complete yet, it now includes people of every tongue, tribe, and people-group... all those in Christ.

It depends on how you wish to define a nation-state. If you are referring to modern nation-states with parliamentary governments, as opposed to the historic monarchies, yes. But it might be argued that Israel was a theocracy, and as such the king represented the people through an inferred theocratic constitution elected by the people.

So I think you're being a bit misleading. Israel was a nation with a government, period. And its politic was based on divine law, as represented in the Law of Moses.

God promised Abraham not just a nation for his posterity, but he also promised a multitude of nations dedicated to his religious ideal.

God has always only had one people, and always will, consisting of His elect.

In my view, that runs contrary to what God promised Abraham. Many nations implies many peoples with a single faith.

Hmm. So, God said to Abraham, "I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth" (Genesis 13), but regarding a nation or nations, He said to Abraham, "I will make of you a great nation," which is not plural, but singular.

Yes, the singular "nation" was a reference to Israel. The reference to "nations"--plural was a reference to future Christian nations.

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

These were peoples and nations--not just ethnicities scattered wherever.

We're not talking about earthly nations, here, Randy. We're talking about the Israel of God. Yes, no nation on earth was ever totally Christian, or really even close, I would say.

I wouldn't say so. Many nations have devoted themselves, as peoples and as governments, to the principles of Christian faith. I don't know how one could say otherwise?

I'm shocked that I've heard your kind of beliefs regularly on these forums. Is it that people don't know the history of Western Civilization? Do a simple search!